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  1. #1
    Old Merits
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    Spinning Slash/Ground Strike/Gekko etc Hidden Attack Bonus

    I am posting this finding on KI, BG and Alla, so if you have read this already, skip.

    I have recently tried to create an excel damage calculator for gear comparison purpose that account for all phases of the game, upon doing so, and knowing close to all game mechanic, I couldn't understand why Spinning slash, ground strike, gekko, steel cyclone, howling fist and some of the other one hit WSs are doing more than they should. If you use the KI damage calculator for those ws, or simply use the known ws damage formula and calculate it yourself, they will always suggest a lower damage than you see in game, and I believe that most ppl speculate that there is either a hidden attack bonus or a straight up pdif % bonus. In order to make my damage calculator extremely accurate in comparing what are the better overall weapons for each jobs, I figure that I have to try to narrow the hidden trait for those ws in order for the results to be accurate.

    The two possibilities in here are that those WSs either give a straight attack bonus (100, 200, or 300 etc), or give a % of user's pdif (your attack/mob's def) before adjusting for lvl correlation. Therefore, in order to test this, it is best to find mobs that are hard enough so you don't cap your cratio, and one that you can have a large sample, and one that only have minimal lvl difference between the mobs, and most important is that we need to know the stats of the mob. To fit all of the above, meriting in bird camp seems like the best way to test this. Note that from some of the testing that I took from Alla.com SAM forum, they seem to suggest that it is either a flat 200 attack bonus, or a 40% pdif jump.

    So during the weekend, I merited in the setup of drk/sam, war/nin, war/nin, mnk/nin, brd, rdm at lower bird camp for about 230 mobs. Songs were march and min (I believe the min gave me around 59 attack instead of the capped 66), 50% of the time I would have hasso on, no SE, no dia (I told the rdm not to), no food, and with the following WS setup, hume, 5/5 str, 6 hit build: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?182779

    Under the condition, my calculator suggested a 830 spinning slash average assuming a straight 200 attack bonus, accounting DA (not account for missed DA), exceeding tp over 100% which will result in slightly stronger WSs (the calculator suggested an average of 109% tp when I fire a WS, this is assuming 5% human error on not wsing when having 100%, and obviously meditate will screw with your tp, which make it impossible to always at 100% tp when using ws). I am a pretty aggressive player so I would say that I probably WS at a even lower average than 109% tp, and it also suggested a 900ish spinning slash average assuming a 40% pdif bonus. So the difference is pretty big under this condition so the result should point toward one or another.

    After about 185 ish ws, my parser showed a 820ish spinning slash average, which included 1 that hit for only 305 that missed the first hit but connected the extra hit, which slightly brought down the average since my calculator doesn't account for that, and I also had less DA than 7%, so I would say that the sample might be on the lower end in term of average damage.

    So from the look of the parse result, which is a bit on the lower end than my past parse results (probably due to having dia and the fact that I use SE with SS sometimes when I merit in normal condition), it suggest that it should be a 200 attack bonus instead of a % pdif increase.

    I will post the pic of my calculator and parse result if you would like; I am at work now so it will have to wait til I get home. But despite how small the data is, IMO it is pretty clear that it is at least not a % increase. And combining with some of the data from SAM forum, 200 seems to be correct.

    This explains why Spinning slash, gekko, and ground strike are all so great against HNM, the most obvious is that despite a higher ftp, spiral hell doesn't perform as well as ground strike when both are at 300%. And this also shows why they don't perform nearly as well as multi hit WSs when mobs are lower defense, which decrease the value of the 200 attack bonus.

    Just to illustrate it a bit more. This finding is important in selecting gears for WS as it shows that attack is less important. Ppl all know to do this but there is never a good explaination (spinning slash is only 30% str and 30% int, so why we stack on str instead of both str and attack). And for it not being a % increase in pdif means that by putting 10 attack, it won't become 14 attack, so it further decrease the value of attack in such WSs. So yea, I hope this finding helps your gear selection.

    Also note that this doesn't mean that all attack bonus are going to be the same, but it is assume to all be 200 unless you can test some of the other ws like howling fist, steel cyclone etc. At this point, it seems like Spinning slash and gekko are both 200 attack.

  2. #2
    TSwiftie
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    Fenrir

    First off, I'd like to agree with you that certian weapon skill perform better than others, despite the math saying otherwise. I think majority of the endgame ffxi community will agree with this.

    I think one contributing factor to this is that people misinterpret pdif. It gives a range of possible values. With how pdif works now, since the 2-Handed update, it's much easier to see that certian WS tend toward different pdif averages in capped conditions.

    More relevantly, I'd like to add that I too believe each WS has an attack modifier. Since WS mods were devolped by using capped conditions, attack mods were never able to be apart of the testing. Empirically, I've always felt there was a difference between Gekko Kasha Yukki. The debate is old, and over exhausted though. I also feel it extends to Relic WS. Cata and Kaiten in particular seem to gain a lot from having attack buffs.

  3. #3
    Relic Weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirschy View Post
    I think one contributing factor to this is that people misinterpret pdif.
    I don't see how this can be attributed to a "misinterpretation" of pDIF. We realize that pDIF has a range. Speaking from a Gekko perspective (cuz that's what I have experience with), we see average damage that lies above the possible pDIF range dictated by our average hits.

    There seems to be a static bonus of some kind. Tacking it onto pDIF just seems to fit what we're seeing. Gekko is also very weakly affected by gains in attack under most merit party situations (this is part of what makes SAM/DRG such a beast). This is consistent with a pDIF bonus.

    I'd certainly agree that there's something screwy going on with Cata and Kaiten, but I don't think you can generalize them in the same way as the strangeness we see on Gekko. I'd believe there's some sort of attack mod for those relic WSs, but the pDIF bonus model just fits too well for Gekko.

  4. #4
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless View Post
    I am posting this finding on KI, BG and Alla, so if you have read this already, skip.
    Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Samurai



    If you use the alla thread you will see much more detailed explanation of the phenomenon and see a lot more of the mechanics used in testing it. The thread title says y/g/k, but it refers to all of the super buffed WS that have this hidden trait.

  5. #5
    Old Merits
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodou View Post
    Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Samurai



    If you use the alla thread you will see much more detailed explanation of the phenomenon and see a lot more of the mechanics used in testing it. The thread title says y/g/k, but it refers to all of the super buffed WS that have this hidden trait.
    Yea, that thread is actually what started me doing all these. If you read through that, I posted on there as well under pochenlai, Nameless was taken T T. They tested it to be either a pdif % bonus or a flat attack bonus, and I just tried to see which one it actually is cuz they makes a world's difference on gear selection. The thread primarily focus on the single hit ws accuracy tho.

  6. #6
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hakamaru View Post
    I don't see how this can be attributed to a "misinterpretation" of pDIF. We realize that pDIF has a range. Speaking from a Gekko perspective (cuz that's what I have experience with), we see average damage that lies above the possible pDIF range dictated by our average hits.

    There seems to be a static bonus of some kind. Tacking it onto pDIF just seems to fit what we're seeing. Gekko is also very weakly affected by gains in attack under most merit party situations (this is part of what makes SAM/DRG such a beast). This is consistent with a pDIF bonus.

    I'd certainly agree that there's something screwy going on with Cata and Kaiten, but I don't think you can generalize them in the same way as the strangeness we see on Gekko. I'd believe there's some sort of attack mod for those relic WSs, but the pDIF bonus model just fits too well for Gekko.
    I did some testing on this and I believe that part of the reason there might be a problem is that the current information we have for the cRatio and pDIF ranges are incorrect since the two-handed update.

    Honestly, someone with more skill and mathematical prowess than I should take a look at the issue.

  7. #7
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodou View Post
    Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Samurai



    If you use the alla thread you will see much more detailed explanation of the phenomenon and see a lot more of the mechanics used in testing it. The thread title says y/g/k, but it refers to all of the super buffed WS that have this hidden trait.
    People have already posted about that, but I will mention again that I believe those tests are bad and inconsistent for no other reason than the mobs in that Temenos zone have stats that can change depending on the order in which you kill the mobs.

    There are far superior ways to test this information.

  8. #8
    Relic Weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringthree View Post
    I did some testing on this and I believe that part of the reason there might be a problem is that the current information we have for the cRatio and pDIF ranges are incorrect since the two-handed update.

    Honestly, someone with more skill and mathematical prowess than I should take a look at the issue.
    You can back pDIF out of your average swing value without knowing the cRatio -> pDIF relation.

    Damage = pDIF * BaseDamage

    Damage and BaseDamage are known if you know mob VIT, so solve for pDIF.

    pDIF = Damage / BaseDamage

    Then of course you have to account for the fact that pDIF is a ranged value in reality.

  9. #9
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    I am pretty sure the pdif and cratio info are correct the way it is in my damage calculator. Looking away from WS, my calculator suggested a 119 per hit melee damage and my parse result showed a 120 average (slightly more due to warcry and LR effecting it occasionally). If the cratio and pdif don't work the way it should, the result would simply be different. Tho it is not to say that regular melee hit aspect of pdif and cratio might not work the same as WS, but I can't see how different it would be. Especially for ws that don't have hidden attack bonus, those pdif and cratio range appear to be accurate, it is really just these few that are creating problem.

    The only problem that I see is the pdif cap being hard to measure for critical and non critical hit, but in this case, my pdif wasn't capped, so such arguement won't matter.

    The reason I used bird is cuz the fact that I can test this in a more regular way, and with GS and just one song, my pdif won't cap under both senarios, yet would result in a noticable difference. If I don't get that one att song, the difference between a flat 200 attack bonus and a 40% pdif bonus would be too small. A better test subject might be those golem in sky, they have higher def and we know the stats of those mobs. But I figure I would do the easy way. You guys are free to test it with golem.

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