LM-17s in EVE Online

[Necronus]

EVE Online | EVE Insider | Dev Blog

So while this isn't exactly FFXI related, listening to LBR last night and then seeing this article on Slashdot about EVE online a mere one day later inspired me to post it.

For those who didn't listen to LBR, Sonomaa and other community leaders pointed out that simply explaining to us why and how the bannings were conducted would go a long way toward better community relations. Then today I see this write-up on Slashdot about how there was a duping exploit in EVE and a long and involved description from the devs how the glitch worked, detailed graphs and data about what effect it had on the economy, and finally an explanation who warranted banning.

So if any SE rep actually does lurk this forum anonymously, take this as a shining example of how to approach us as a community.

Note: Wasn't sure if this belonged in the LBR post, since its actually EVE related, so move if necessary.

[Zosi]

I'm not sure you want to use EVE as a shining example of developer interaction, given that there's been constant rumors of devs helping players cheat.

[Ohaigaiz]

Is this advanced?

[Lordwafik]

I'm not sure you want to use EVE as a shining example of developer interaction, given that there's been constant rumors of devs helping players cheat.

Hmmm I should apply for a dev position.

In regards to "Is this advanced?!" - since the other topics got locked, and the RIP players thread really isn't related to this, I will leave this thread here as I don't see a place to stick this outside here and gaming, and it isn't really a topic about gaming of EVE in general, more of a contrast between FFXI and EVE's way of doing things.

[Necronus]

Its actually not a rumor, but it was a fact that some devs conspired with players (using their ingame alter-egos) and monopolized the crafting recipies for high end items.


So while I can't speak for their dev team now, but apparently that situation was dealt with. And its not like it can't happen in our game or any other game. Imagine if a SE dev got bored on their anonymous account (and we know from recent interviews that some if not all definitely play casually like us) and decided to use GM tools to speed up their levelling, dupe some items, or claim kings but in a way that didn't draw too many flags or set off too many warning signals to get caught.

Anyway, the example above is still EXACTLY how SE should have handled the bannings, regardless of how well EVE is run in other areas.

And again, sorry if this is the wrong spot but it felt independant enough to cause me to make a thread but related enough to the LBR webcast to put it in advanced.

[Lampoon]

Hmmm I should apply for a dev position.

They don't have CSR Center anywhere near your sandbox

[richardd]

Hmmm I should apply for a dev position.

dude, lets go together. we'll fill out our resumes in an Itchy and Scratchy costume and tell them we have experience.


Just out of curiousity, (and because i never got into other MMO's) but what happened in EVE online? I tried reading it, but all i saw were charts etc. Did they also have a mass banning? And showed what the economy would be like afterwords?

[Lordwafik]

Imagine if a SE dev got bored on their anonymous account (and we know from recent interviews that some if not all definitely play casually like us) and decided to use GM tools to speed up their levelling, dupe some items, or claim kings but in a way that didn't draw too many flags or set off too many warning signals to get caught.

Can't find the topic as it was on KI, but there was an instance of insider information being exploited in FFXI by some people on the dev team OR in the know (I'm thinking the latter, read below to find out why).

A few days before the patch that made Alky/O.Kote and other things rare/ex, there was a player buying every single one of them up, and then later on listed them all on the AH for higher (obviously). Some JP people tracked them down and posted them on the 2ch, some jp<>en readers found them and stuck them on KI.

Now if it were someone on the direct dev team, they would have known not to buy Alky bracers as those things plummeted, which is why I think it was someone higher up but not all the way up there.

[Necronus]

dude, lets go together. we'll fill out our resumes in an Itchy and Scratchy costume and tell them we have experience.


Just out of curiousity, (and because i never got into other MMO's) but what happened in EVE online? I tried reading it, but all i saw were charts etc. Did they also have a mass banning? And showed what the economy would be like afterwords?

The article doesn't say how many people were banned, but based on the fact that I used to play EVE Online two years ago and knowing the costs of the items needed to pull off this exploit, it was likely 100+ players and could have easily been 500 like us.


The TLDR on the exploit was that you could set up a manufacturing starbase and then once it started auto-crafting, you turned off the part of the station that held your crafting mats, but the part that actually output the result was tricked into still producing.

Basically it's like setting up a car factory which took steel and plastic as inputs, but now it just makes cars out of thin air, except in this case it was supplies for a super star destoyer and not a car.

[vegetaa]

I'm not sure you want to use EVE as a shining example of developer interaction, given that there's been constant rumors of devs helping players cheat.

It's more than rumors. Several people deeply involved in the development and the management of EVE online have been fired last year (or was it the year before ?) when they were proven guilty of helping specific guilds.

There was a very interesting article on Gamasutra about that, but I can't find it right now :/ Slashdot also covered the issue, and had an interview with EVE main producer where this was discussed.

[Tekki]

tl;dr =

Players used a duping process to dupe resources and the bug was present for years. The Devs just did something about it, researched the effect of the duping on the economy of the game, destroyed the duping equipment, and banned 134 players.

The graphs simply show some information about the effect of the economy and the resources used.

Ohaigaiz you should really stop fucking posting if your just going to waste your breathe.

This is advanced for a significant reason. The difference between this ban and FFXIs ban is the Devs presented the play base with a rather lengthy and detailed explanation of how the dupe worked, how it came to their attention, how they investigated every part of the duping process, what they did, and why they picked who who they nuked. Eve Devs describe in full detail some of the major players' actions when they duped, who benefited, who didn't and what they did about it.

Essentially its like the Attorney General coming out with 150 page indictment detailing the investigation of a 5 year drug ring that led to the arrests of hundreds of criminals.

What did SE do? They came in with Tommy guns and went downtown and randomly shot into a crowd of gangsters, killing some and wounding others... Then leaving a sticky note on the street sign saying "We went around and killed some dupers"

Sono and discussed this last night with a couple other people (Sorry the names escape me). This is a clear example of why both of us feel the same way about SE's approach to the banning. SE took an amateur and vague way of taking care of the duping problem and ultimately disappointed the community with a lack of explanation to why they permently banned, and why they temporarily banned certain players.

[hagun]

EVE = boooooooooooooooooooooooooring. Sorry, I admit I had nothing productive to input. I know you still love me. The TOS was very clear.

[Charismatic]

You're supposed to type something about EVE's game systezZzzzZzzZZZZzzzzzzZZZZZZ

[hagun]

Forget the system, let us beat the this old SE ban dead horse some moar.

[EternalSnow]

I find it very sad and silly for someone to compare ingame bannings to real life situations. Basically as the saying goes "you do the crime, you do the time" People broke the rules and need to just move on with life.

[Destinye]

I find it very sad and silly for someone to compare ingame bannings to real life situations. Basically as the saying goes "you do the crime, you do the time" People broke the rules and need to just move on with life.

They can't because in the FFXI situation, SE is the ones wrong for punishing them with more than a slap on the wrist and SE is also wrong because they didn't give out every single detail (not that every company does to begin with)...so how can someone move on when they act as though they've been raped?

[Necronus]

Just so that it's clear, I am in no way trying defend the bannings nor attack them. That debate was plenty covered in other threads.

What this thread is about is communication and what we as a community want SE to provide us in terms of that communication. For those who didn't listen to the LBR webcast, I reccommend that you do because that is exactly the kind of clear concise argument we need to present to SE in the name of better player/dev relations.


As a final note, do not confuse WANT with DESERVE. SE by their own TOS owe us nothing and every person here knows that if SE felt like banning people whos name started with "A" for no reason other than for a chuckle then they are well within their right to do so. But that doesn't meant that as a community we shouldn't try to keep extending an olive branch in the name of better relations.

[ringthree]

EVE is the nerd's MMO, as if that could even be possible.

The explanation is completely convoluted and far overdone, just like the game.

[Correction]

Basically as the saying goes "you do the crime, you do the time" People broke the rules and need to just move on with life.

I find it very silly that people think this original thought needs to be added for the one-millionth time to a thread on the LM-17 topic.

oh, wait you were just +1'ing. Got it.

[Zilong]

People need to just let this shit go, it's getting tiresome, it's not like bitching about it is gonna get your account back, nor would it make SE any better developer if the PW fiasco was any indication.