COR/NIN - Joyeuse/M. Kris

**nitsuj** · 2009-05-17 03:54

I need to know consensus on this, as COR is my only melee job.

First off, I know there are only a few times I should be /NIN. This isn't about that. Usually I'll be /RNG (or /WAR). Like always, shit is situational.

I'm also well aware that dual-wielding anything with joyeuse slows down TP gain to 100.

But my knowledge gets skewed when that offhand weapon is a M. Kris. I was messing around the other day and it seemed very viable to use both. Sam Roll and Chaos Roll, eating meat (I have fairly good accuracy even as /NIN with the right gear) I seemed to get to 100% TP a lot faster (because 5 swings per round > 2 swings per round, duh).

I'm going to make the assumption that offhanding anything with joyeuse is dumb EXCEPT if you're offhanding a M. Kris.

Confirm or deny?

(also, Brutal Earring + multihit weapon, how does this effect it exactly?. If joyeuse is double hit, it can't DA off Brutal, if joyeuse is single hit, then it rolls again for DA off Brutal? Is this effected by dual wielding 2 multi hit weapons? What about a Kraken Club, since I'm possibly already hitting the 8 swings per round cap anyways?)

It's late, hopefully this makes sense. I just want some concrete answers/numbers so I understand all this.

Thanks

**Thelona** · 2009-05-17 05:04

I found Joy/Mkris to be noticeably better in tp gain vs just joy.
Joytoy/Mkris also don't stack with double attack, double attack overwriting the multihit.
Lastly kclub is not cor equippable

**Darkslitter** · 2009-05-17 05:26

wouldn't merc kris alone be fastest tp gain?

**Falisa** · 2009-05-17 07:30

I'm about 90% sure this has been debated to death in about 3 threads now and it always comes out to that joyeuse alone is best but people will do whatever the fuck they want to do. I'm too tired and about to go to bed, or i'd look up those threads myself and link them. Someone else will probably by the time I can tomorrow.

**barber2006** · 2009-05-17 08:12

The magic number on birds (at least with the pdifs etc that I use based on my character) is 962. If you never use barrage and have 100% ws accuracy (big jumps I know), then merc kris is better if your ws does over 962 damage since it allows faster ws and less melee dot. If your averaged ws damage is less than 962 joy is better. This is assuming a ws as soon as you hit 100 tp and equal merits in sword and dagger (using suppa for joy). It accounts for the skill difference between the two.

As far as DW both is concerned.....it's frowned upon (mostly because Cor's hate the thought of subbing ninja), but mathematically it works the same as on any other job. With suppa its a 20% delay reduction with no increase to tp gain speed (since dw speed increases get penalized in the tp formula). Adding kris to joy will give faster tp because it naturally gets faster tp than joy, but realize that 20% increase to melee speed will be 'wasted' by giving more attacks to an 8 damage dagger.

If you have to /nin for whatever reason, mathematically it works. But 3.5M for the same amount of production isn't worth it imo.

**Chen** · 2009-05-17 08:32

sell your m.kris, get 1~2 snipers+1's, use joyeuse only!

**Raen Ryong** · 2009-05-17 10:00

Joyeuse/MKris, pure TP gain comparison assuming both have 100% accuracy.

Spoiler: show

Dualwielding the two speeds up TP gain, it does not reduce it. Not going to comment on different SJs vs each other, this is just to clear up the misconception that adding an MKris to Joyeuse slows down its TP gain.

**Greatguardian** · 2009-05-17 10:28

100% Accuracy on a Cor/Nin is far from what you're going to get, though. You have to take into account B+/B- skill, and its tendency to have to choose between acc or haste on most gear slots (Most people choosing Haste). Adding merits to both sword and dagger is counterproductive as well, as a full-time Cor would be taking Marksmanship to 8/8 first.

A Cor/Rng with acc traits will get TP faster than a Cor/Nin dualweilding Mkris/Joyeuse, unless they're fighting EM-lower.

**Raen Ryong** · 2009-05-17 14:18

Factoring accuracy into the mix, pretending that Joyeuse is 95% accuracy and M Kris is 73.5% accuracy (43 acc difference -- 16 skill natural, 5 skill suppa and 22 accuracy /rng30);

Spoiler: show

Of course, this gap becomes less if Joyeuse's accuracy exceeds 95% etc etc.

**Tsuko_Asura** · 2009-05-17 16:49

Better question: Why were you using Samurai Roll?

**nitsuj** · 2009-05-17 16:57

Originally Posted by barber2006

If you have to /nin for whatever reason, mathematically it works. But 3.5M for the same amount of production isn't worth it imo.

I wouldn't buy it, I'd get one from my Pirate's Chart if anything.

Originally Posted by Tsuko_Asura

Better question: Why were you using Samurai Roll?

Because Dynamis is boring and I had a SAM in the party, wanted to mess around with the two weapons, obviously.

This is an interesting topic, though. And it sounds to me like it hasn't been "debated to death" as I once thought, as there doesn't seem to be a clear agreement here yet.

Originally Posted by Thelona

Lastly kclub is not cor equippable

I know that, I was more just curious on the rounds per attack + Brutal question (my WHM could use the K Club + Brutal). Wanted to make sure that using the Brutal wouldn't somehow hinder the KC's TP gain. (or the other multihit weapons, in that case)

**Tsuko_Asura** · 2009-05-17 19:05

If a weapon's average number of swings is higher than two, Double Attack is a detriment to your attack speed.

**Falisa** · 2009-05-17 19:18

Both of these threads have several pages of debates on this same subject.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/67535...questions.html

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/71573...questions.html

I'm at work at the moment and dont have the time to go through all of it to pick out the end agreements.

**nitsuj** · 2009-05-17 19:27

Yeah I've read/posted in those threads but the subject always just seemed "touched upon" and not decided. I'll mention it, and it'll just get overlooked or someone will just say "JOYTOY ONRY" and move on.

I wanted to get some definitive answers on this thread, which the math posted above seems to suffice

**Tsuko_Asura** · 2009-05-17 21:27

Err, also, my mistake about Samurai Roll, I was under the assumption that you were referring to merits.

**Raen Ryong** · 2009-05-17 22:13

Remember of course that the above is a pure TP gain analysis and not an overall damage analysis!

**konoko** · 2009-05-18 00:45

you also need to factor in the 0 dmg hits your going to get with that dagger, if your fighting anything other then piercing weak mobs

0dmg = 0tp

**Thorny** · 2009-05-18 00:53

Originally Posted by Raen Ryong

Joy vs Merc math

COR has 16 higher dagger skill, not 16 higher sword skill.

**Shinryuu** · 2009-05-18 02:38

And you're not hitting 0's more often w/ M.Kris than w/ Joyeuse unless you get unlucky w/ rounding down (in which case Joyeuse is also going to hit 0's, just a bit less often). Hell, M.Kris = more skill = more attack = less 0's.

**Raen Ryong** · 2009-05-18 10:07

Originally Posted by Thorny

COR has 16 higher dagger skill, not 16 higher sword skill.

Haha, really? By the way someone was complaining about the Sword vs Dagger skill accuracy difference I quickly looked up the caps and thought it was the other way around... wow.

Tiem for correction!

Difference is 16skill in Mkris's favour, 11 when you consider Suppa. Let's be nice and let 11 be 10acc. /rng is +22 acc so Joyeuse has 12 more accuracy, or 6% more hitrate. Let the hitrates be 95% and 89% respectively then...

Spoiler: show

Even if you fully merit Joyeuse and don't put any merits into Dagger, Joy/Mkris is generally always going to build TP faster than Joyeuse on its own, regardless of SJ. This is of course a pure TP analysis...

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