Entitlement vs. Criticism, Or How an MMO (specifically FFXI) is or isn't different from other games.

[Tagus]

It doesn't seem I need to get my hands dirty. What Ryko says is mostly all that needs to be said on this topic.

As for the usefulness of fan-cries, Devs don't need to talk to or "listen" to the players, they can just watch them to obtain information.

Interesting thoughts, but I guess this is where you and I disagree. The devs are (admittedly gifted and artistic) employees of SE. SE is paid a monthly fee by it's player base. It IS the job of the devs and SE in general to keep their customers happy and retain their business, and their efforts in this could be improved in a variety of relatively easy ways... first and foremost by putting effort into communicating with them.

[Yugl]

I like how BRP says players shouldn't dictate when updates occur, yet completely acts in contradiction to that view in this thead:http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/75623...ml#post2759742

Oh and if the blue link isn't enticing enough, here's a little gem from that thread:

Haste and Fastcast do matter to both BRD and COR ... Like Acc/Atk and contrasting melees.

[ringthree]

I don't think that BRP is an SE apologist at all, and he is definitely telling the leaky vags to shove it so I don't think that is really what this thread is about at all.

BRP, I understand what you are saying, but that is not the situation that exists in the real world with any MMO. You may think that would be a better system, but even though one may or may not like the fact that development teams listen to players, in the end they do listen. I do want to say that if we did live in a perfect world I wouldn't mind the development style that you describe.

I think the point should be made here that listening to complaints and doing something about those complaints are two completely different things.

You are completely correct, entitled players that whine out the newest nerf or demand nerfs of other classes, are people that should in general be ignored. But in all the white noise, sometimes there is an underlying signal that can be found. If, on the other hand, the developers of an MMO cloister themselves from any of the input from players they are acting in much the same why that entitled players act. They think they know better than anyone else, and thus should ignore any complaints. This developer entitlement, the notion that the developers know better than the players, is just as bad as player entitlement. Groupthink is bad for both sides. It was one of the reasons, I believe, that FFXI was so frustrating to play earlier on in it's existence.

Criticism can be very constructive, if you find the signal in the white noise. The developers do know far more about the game than the players, but that doesn't mean that nothing they players say is useful for creating a better game. And that is why an MMO is different from a normal video game, it can be changed after it is released. I think that you may in effect be deifying the developers. They are just humans, just like the players, and while they know the coding of the game, that doesn't mean that they have considered absolutely everything about what the code in the game can do.

I just believe this entitled mentality can happen on both ends of the game, and it is when both ends listen and consider what the other has to say that you get the best results. It will never be perfect, but to me, it certainly seems like when FFXI started "listen" to the players the game got a lot better.

After saying all that, I do agree with your general impression of whiny players, and I especially hate those people that can't distinguish the game from the people that make it. Now, I will admit I do fall into that trap too sometimes. Hell, look at my response to the community podcast series. But I try not to do that when I can. I understand that there is no SE "monster" out there trying to ruin our lives, and that mentality it utterly stupid. It reminds me of when people actually believed that "SE" was working with the "RMT". I can't even imagine the mental process that causes people to believe things like that.

[ringthree]

Interesting thoughts, but I guess this is where you and I disagree. The devs are (admittedly gifted and artistic) employees of SE. SE is paid a monthly fee by it's player base. It IS the job of the devs and SE in general to keep their customers happy and retain their business, and their efforts in this could be improved in a variety of relatively easy ways... first and foremost by putting effort into communicating with them.

This, stated clearly and concisely.

[BRP]

Yugl, while I can't speak for everyone in that thread, I have no delusions that I am changing the minds of SE. I have no interest in that actually. That right there is me only messing around hypothetically with the rules of the game for my own amusement on a messageboard.

Nice job taking that quote out of context, but this relationship between us is starting to become stalkerish. This is what? The fourth thread you've had nothing to say and you used a post to attack me? I am sorry bro, but I just don't like you like that. Drop it already.

[Absolutely Virtue]

I assert that MMO development is dynamic both in creation and communication, meaning that there is and should be interaction between the player base and the development team, even if it is just to have the development team tell the players that what they want is wrong.

What the entitled player fails to understand is that SE is not in the business of making you happy. They're in the business of making money. To make money, their revenue must exceed their costs.

If the devs are going to "listen" to the playerbase, and "participate" in the community, they're going to have to pay people to do it. Then they're going to have to pay people to test out all these awesome ideas everyone has for improving the product. Then they're going to have to pay people to constantly tweak the game. To remain viable, they will need to increase revenue.

If you honestly think that 24/7 developer feedback and continuous improvement is a good idea for a business model like an MMO, chances are you aren't smart enough to have a job that would allow you to afford the $100/month it would cost you to play that game.

[Cadsuane]

The notion that game developers are out pandering to their own interests as opposed to the players is absolute bullshit. And he is an apologist, which is something none of us can avoid entirely after playing the same piece of shit for half a decade.

[ringthree]

What the entitled player fails to understand is that SE is not in the business of making you happy. They're in the business of making money. To make money, their revenue must exceed their costs.

If the devs are going to "listen" to the playerbase, and "participate" in the community, they're going to have to pay people to do it. Then they're going to have to pay people to test out all these awesome ideas everyone has for improving the product. Then they're going to have to pay people to constantly tweak the game. To remain viable, they will need to increase revenue.

If you honestly think that 24/7 developer feedback and continuous improvement is a good idea for a business model like an MMO, chances are you aren't smart enough to have a job that would allow you to afford the $100/month it would cost you to play that game.

Are you saying there is a difference between making the player base happy and making money? Usually one follows the other.

Put money into playerbase communication, increase satisfaction with the game, increase player retention and word of mouth support of the game.

I don't know if you have heard of this other MMO, it is apparently quite successful. It's called World of Warcraft. I heard they have a few more players than FFXI. And they have the head of their development team posting on their forums almost every day.

Now of course I am not suggesting that the only reason that WoW is successful is because of it's customer contact, far from it, but I don't think you should insult other people's intelligence when the number one MMO out there directly contradicts your insult.

[ringthree]

The notion that game developers are out pandering to their own interests as opposed to the players is absolute bullshit. And he is an apologist, which is something none of us can entirely avoid entirely after playing the same piece of shit for half a decade.

I don't think anyone is saying anything in absolutes, just debating the relative level of communication that should occur.

And of course we are all fan bois, but I think you make distinctions if you look at the situation in relative terms and in context.

[Ultimagi]

I don't know if you have heard of this other MMO, it is apparently quite successful. It's called World of Warcraft. I heard they have a few more players than FFXI. And they have the head of their development team posting on their forums almost every day.

World of Warcraft sucks, it's players are stupid. I don't want to play that game. I want to play Final Fantasy XI, where the developers don't listen to the incessant whining of the retarded masses. Don't compare those 2 games, ever.

[Hyan]

Put money into playerbase communication, increase satisfaction with the game, increase player retention and word of mouth support of the game.

I don't know if you have heard of this other MMO, it is apparently quite successful. It's called World of Warcraft. I heard they have a few more players than FFXI. And they have the head of their development team posting on their forums almost every day.

I think that the fact that WoW is so succesful doesn't have anything to do with the dev<>player communications at all, but other factors.

[Cadsuane]

World of Warcraft sucks, it's players are stupid. I don't want to play that game, I want to play Final Fantasy XI. Where the developers don't listen to the incessant whining of the retarded masses. Don't compare those 2 games, ever.

Rationalize it however you like, elitist nihongophile piece of shit. ":3

[Xavier]

I don't believe you can entirely separate the experience of PR from the experience of actually playing the game, as far as MMO games are concerned. There are, however, two forms of communication between the developers and the players: that which comes as a response and that which comes as a demand.

Concerning the first:

The information, or the lack there of, released by Square before a patch serves as a precursor to actual changes about to be implemented, which will effect your experience playing the game.

Now, of course you can argue that any concerns expressed by players before a patch are premature, as they aren't actually involved in the development process and are basing their opinions on what they've heard, not seen.

On the other hand, if player reaction to PR serves as a measurement for the developer to gauge interest in the proposed changes, then players only hurt themselves by remaining silent. This assumes the developer cares, when it does not necessarily have to. If the developer simply does not care, then anything you do is irrelevant.

If, however, a means of communication actually exists between the developer and player, and if the most vocal group is also the one most antithetical to your views, then letting them complain while you simply play in silence is self-defeating. If Square only sees comments by lvl 50 characters on Alla, and if they actually place any value in the wants of their players, then the only updates you are going to see are Chocobo Racing, etc.

There will be some who always complain, regardless of what happens; there will be some whose complaints prove to be unjustified once a change is implemented; there will be, however, some players whose complaints are prophetic, and might have prevented (or did) an eventual mistake. The latter group, additionally, is likely composed of players who may actually spend more time playing the game than the developers themselves. BRP describes them as slaves, but is it not often the slave, who spends all of his time performing a task, that understands its mechanics better than the master who simply observes from a distance?

For the first category of communication, that which is responsive, are players who react to PR exclusively complaining about PR, or rather about the changes (or lack of) being discussed for the game they are playing? If a player reads an interview in which Square announces a change (or, again, the lack there of), and that player responds with disbelief and considers quitting, are they being critical of the PR job itself (possibly), or of the consequences the PR will ultimately have on the game they are playing?

Point being, not everyone who complains is a whiny bitch, some complaints are likely legitimate. If the developers announce their intent beforehand, and if that announcement serves to determine player reaction, then players actually reacting makes perfect sense. If the developers don't care what the players think at all, then they ultimately wouldn't need to announce anything at all, as they would just change what they wanted, when they wanted, and the players could respond by continuing to play or quit.

Concerning the second:

As for this group, which merely makes demands based on what they want irrespective to the developers vision, I am inclined to agree with BRP and Ryko. They are driven by a sense of entitlement, and moreover, their ambitions are likely to be aimed at merely benefiting themselves regardless of the effects it would have on the game as a whole.

They do not, however, represent everyone.

[Whaleporn]

World of Warcraft sucks, it's players are stupid. I don't want to play that game. I want to play Final Fantasy XI, where the developers don't listen to the incessant whining of the retarded masses. Don't compare those 2 games, ever.

Agreed! You flithy gajin think giving suggestions to enhance the longevity of a game that often degrades into stale repetitive play is some sort of given right. Don't ever touch my posts with your filthy hands, ever, filthy elitist. I think beastmasters would agree with me that FFXI developers are completely on top of any potential game issue.

World of warcraft? More like world of cartoon craft. Only a stupid idiot would enjoy larger then life scenery. You fools simply can't understand how beautiful the crawlers nest is, or how delightful garlage is. Do you remember the first breath taking time you wandered into ragemount pass? I do. I just cried a little posting that because of FFXI's beautiful scenery, more then any lame fly over of a lava strewn hellscape with scripted battles that the OTHER GAME has heh.

[BRP]

I understand what you are saying, but that is not the situation that exists in the real world with any MMO.

There is a lot of things that are just common sense in games that are mysteriously absent when we begin to talk about MMOs. This is why MMOs for the most part suck dick. This is why when we compare FFXI to WoW it is like asking who is the best swimmer and neither of them have arms or legs. There is so much wrong with MMOs that there is a lot of material just about the people who play them(right now, "entitlement")

I guess it again comes down to MMOs being compared to sensible norm of vidoegames, which really are the sensible norm of all games. I simply don't see how you can see them differently.

I don't think I need to tell you that following these norms has little correlation with making money, so they often get ignored(because sometimes the opposite is profitable.) Well, it might have some in the more nurtured and matured gaming genres, but in ones like MMOs or "JRPGs" it is amazing how much bullshit you can get away with. But it has been like this for years and the gaming media simply exempt them from obvious criticisms because "they are different genres" when they really both fall under the "RTS" or "TBS" subgenres. This is why WoW can get a 10 score from a magazine that would later give a 6-7 score to a game that is light years ahead in depth.


FFXI didn't/doesn't need the devs playing God to improve. SE can see players mass-quit from the RNG nerf or the job exodus, who needs going-ons of an anonymous JP board or KillingIfrit's RNG boards? This is raw feedback, the only kind that matters. I mean if what the person is saying is not backed by proof, why believe it in the first place?

And the shocking truth is that even if SE was like Blizzard with official boards fucking full of useless "official" posts, it would all be the psyche of the poor and petty princesses. The game being good will always depend on their ability as game designers not party hosts.


EDIT: Oh and I forgot a very important point half-way in...

It must be realized that by changing the situation so that devs don't make the games they want, you are neutering game development. This is why keeping the hands of marketing away until the product is finished is very important.

Letting players decide on which product to buy rather than deciding what the product is will always be a superior system. The former is simply a freer version of the second anyway, with more room for TRUE innovation(note: not what the Wii/Natal/funky dualwielding dildos Sony is pimping are selling)

[arus2001]

Sorry, but as long as I'm paying a monthly fee, I'll have some input in hopes of getting more bang for my buck. Just canceling my subscription and moving on assumes nobody else has the same concerns. Moreover, I'm not foolish enough to believe a lack of money will foster an investment of cash to shore up an issue. This is SE we're talking about, they'll just abandon it completely or throw out lame excuses about why they can't fix it.

Plus I don't really trust other people to speak for me. I might not always get what's on my mind out properly the first time. Nor do I feel my ideas are flawless and need no refinement. I know people just love comparisons, but if I need a car and find an abandoned one that just needs a new radiator hose, do I just throw my hands up in the air and look for a perfectly functioning car to suit my needs, or just fix the fucker and drive off with what would likely be a lesser investment of resources? That's how I view the MMO situation and community relations.

[BRP]

Sorry, but as long as I'm paying a monthly fee, I'll have some input in hopes of getting more bang for my buck.

lol I am sorry, but that input would be no longer paying that fee.


EDIT: Xavier, the masters in the slave/masters contrast who play FFXI would be the ones who enjoy it/literally play it, not work. Or not play it all if they didn't enjoy it. I know that might get confusing if I went and probably did call SE masters at some point.

[Xavier]

I also believe, despite what BRP says, that the MMO experience and the experience of other games are ultimately a different animal.

As I am not involved at all during the development of a standard game, my first chance to play the game only comes after it has been completed, packaged, and shipped. Any complaints I have are thus meaningless, as they cannot possibly result in any changes for that product.

MMO games, however, are different. They represent an ongoing process of development for the title itself. As a project, the game is never truly finished until the developers decide to relocate their staff and close the servers. While I obviously have had no involvement in the development of the game before it becomes available to the public, I have plenty of time playing the game afterward, during which it is continually having features added or changed.

As the game is continually being worked on, I cannot help but feel that the players actually serve as an ongoing form of testers, paying for the right to play the game, while discovering problems in a world so large that the developers cannot hope to discover everything for themselves.

As a business model, MMO games are brilliant. You are, in essence, paying the company for the right to play, from which you presumably derive entertainment, while at the same time allowing that company to maintain a drastically reduced staff as you and all your friends serve to point out bugs, imbalances, etc.

Any complaints I have, moreover, maintain the actual possibility, regardless of how remote (the chance is entirely dependent on whether or not the developers want or care about your input), to actually influence the product before it is finished.

With a standard game, as I said before, this simply doesn't happen.

[Whaleporn]

And the shocking truth is that even if SE was like Blizzard with official boards fucking full of useless "official" posts, it would all be the psyche of the poor and petty princesses. The game being good will always depend on their ability as game designers not party hosts.

I think though that the success of any game, both financially and in the minds of the players is linked to now much they feel a game is specifically tailored to them: if you have input into the game process you feel like you're a part of the game.

When people on these boards complain about devs not listening, it's because in the mix of their selfish complaints are (theoretically!) some legitimate criticisms of the game. It's up to the community to fight out what's a garbage suggestion and what a legitimate problem is and how it might be solved.

I've seen some terrible ideas (read: any suggestion for a new job) and some pretty spot on ones (I still think the suggested 3 kings system had potential).

Ideally what we like about a game gets carried over, and what we complain about is changed to make it less obnoxious or not present in the first place!

As for looking at just FFXI and trying to compare it to real games, I think you have to give an example of what you could do to a multiplayer-only title that would bring it closer to much deeper games. What games do you define as deep? Is depth the same as fun?

My own response is that FFXI and other JRPGs are 'tactical character development' games: the fun is mostly in building your character (or linkshell roster if your a leader!). The MMO template is often flawed because you are often forced to do activities that don't have direct benefit to your character getting better. How do you fix that without limiting how far you can advance? I can't say myself, and *that's* where game developers should have a leg up on you or I whom simply play them.

[Yugl]

Yugl, while I can't speak for everyone in that thread, I have no delusions that I am changing the minds of SE. I have no interest in that actually. That right there is me only messing around hypothetically with the rules of the game for my own amusement on a messageboard.

Nice job taking that quote out of context, but this relationship between us is starting to become stalkerish. This is what? The fourth thread you've had nothing to say and you used a post to attack me? I am sorry bro, but I just don't like you like that. Drop it already.

Too bad it's completely on topic since we're talking about whining morons who want nerfs. It's also on topic because we're talking about people who are incapable of reading beyond a five sentence paragraph then assume they know what the rest is talking about. Pointing out hypocrisy is not off-topic, it's simply calling out people who give up certain values once in order to justify a statement.

The whole third point was a mess. I skimmed it. Still don't feel like answering completely to it. I'll just say up to the point I lost interest you seem to be admitting that even when not doing offensive actions, support jobs still have more checks than BRD.

If you're not going to read what people say and instead make up an extreme point loosely interpreted from what they're actually saying, you're better off not continuing a conversation at all.

It's stupid to assume what people mean without going through the entire post.

It's ignorant to make a general statement such as "Developers should take advice from the player base" and "Developers should not take advice from the player base". Each assumes that either the player or the developer is always right. I think the problem with dialogue between the two is the developers unwillingness to implement good ideas and their player base's ability to develop bad ideas. I believe that empowering the developers to develop new ideas instead of stealing from the players is the best route to go. Furthermore, consider that there are 897832723832 players sending requests (And possibly multiple times). They are not physically capable of organizing such a complex array of requests. Sure, there seems to be solidarity on BG because of the crowd that stays around (Self-Selection Bias). However, SE is dealing with requests not just from BG, but from KI and Alla as well. Requests from "More Enfeebling abilities to RDMs" to "More Melee please (RDM)" come at the same pace (Maybe even more of the latter). I think that SE should just come up with the ideas then have people vote using multiple choice selections. That way you don't alienate the player base (People bitch about this and I don't know why) nor do you allow for stupid "OMGSTUNJUMP" ideas. It empowers the developers to create a game how they want, but also creates checks and balances on that power.