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  1. #1
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Entitlement vs. Criticism, Or How an MMO (specifically FFXI) is or isn't different from other games.

    This is a break-off thread from the FFXIV thread to prevent mucking it all up.

    The question proposed is whether there is a difference in development from MMO's and "normal" video games, and if there should be a difference.

    Taking the position of MMO's being different from "normal" video games is yours truely, and taking the position of no difference is BRP.

    I assert that MMO development is dynamic both in creation and communication, meaning that there is and should be interaction between the player base and the development team, even if it is just to have the development team tell the players that what they want is wrong.

    Lokim pretty concisely explains that players don't know what they want, but they do know what they don't want. Meaning, the best improvements that the developers can make and the best advice they get from players is where the problems exist in MMO's and specifically. There are specific places where it is obvious that the FFXI development team has listened to player concerns and improved the game while still ignoring the specific suggestions made by the players. Also, the more that the developers have listened to the players, the better FFXI has become.

    While I will concede that a lot of the time the developers have a better idea on how to fix problems, a lot of times they need player input on knowing where the problems are, and the more they focus on fixing those problems the better they can make the game.

    Oh yes, I dared!
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  2. #2
    The Mizzle Fizzle of Nikkei's Haremizzle

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    I completely agree that Devs and the user base should interact, but in my opinion ONLY in the sense of pointing out errors and/or fixing things that could possibly impact game play whether it be good or bad.

    As far as to go as far as to suggest that the Devs actually listen to the player base about what it wants to have included in a game is a stretch. It's opening a can of worms that is a nightmare waiting to happen. I mean it's different if the uses were to pony up and front the money to make a game, in which case you'd then have the right to be upset with something you don't think is right etc...

    But from a gaming stand point you get what you get, no one makes you purchase a game and no one makes you pay a month fee for a game. If said person feels the game is worth spending his hard earned money on then more power to him, if not then there are hundreds of other options out there. While I can see both sides of the coin here and actually agree to a point with both ideas.

    Taking user advice on gear, events, mobs etc... Fuck no. But for trouble shooting purposes, bugs, glitches, botting etc... absolutely. I don't see that as being an unreasonable request in the slightest.
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  3. #3
    CoP Dynamis
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    Of course an MMO is a dynamic environment, and to be successful I think there should be feed back between the Devs and the players....however, there is no obligation on there end to do so...in fact, if it hurts the bottom line the company wont do it. This is a revenue stream, and if they are making money....whats the impetus to do anything differently?

    People are, I believe, reactive by nature and not proactive...so you can argue that they SHOULD be proactive and address problems with the idea being that they can generate MORE revenue, but really...its not a worthwhile investment to do so if you cannot see it hurt the bottom line

    I think this is similar to people thinking they can do better than the GM of their favorite sports team...and they piss and moan on the internet/radio to make their points known, but should a GM listen to the fans? I don't know...I don't think so, b/c as soon as you accept one viewpoint then you alienate another group...you can't win...

    I think that is evident on this forum w/ some people claiming how great an update was, and another group QQ beyond belief...what does SE care? They charge your credit card month after month

    I may believe this to be true, but I certianly think people should still give opinions and ideas, and SE SHOULD be open to them...but I don't and wouldn't expect them to listen to anything I have to say.
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  4. #4
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    The devs are obviously not only working on one project. Even the community team in the pod casts mentions being part of other projects, as well as leading the community "effort" in FFXI.

    With that being said, they are essentially missing out on what the rest of us see. MMORPG's live up their name in being massive. There is simply too much to explore, see and do. I highly doubt that the devs explored every single aspect of this game. That's what players are for.

    Why would there be a beta test, where average people not affiliated with Square Enix, even take place if the developers were 110% confident in their product?
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  5. #5
    Old Merits
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    Why would there be a beta test, where average people not affiliated with Square Enix, even take place if the developers were 110% confident in their product?
    Because you can hire as many testers as you want to test your code as many times as you want, and they will still miss something that the players will stumble across for free during a beta.
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  6. #6
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    The devs implement the idea, the userbase mentions the obvious GLARING exploits/flaws/hard coded timesinks/roadblocks in the system, the devs fix those glaring flaws.

    That's where it should end. Players who feel entitled are what makes jobs obsolete or overpowered.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimagi View Post
    Because you can hire as many testers as you want to test your code as many times as you want, and they will still miss something that the players will stumble across for free during a beta.
    But you're of the position that people are idiots (except you of course), and therefore would not be a good resource for feedback. Why are you back tracking?
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  8. #8
    D. Ring
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimagi View Post
    Because you can hire as many testers as you want to test your code as many times as you want, and they will still miss something that the players will stumble across for free during a beta.
    Indeed. And no matter what system you create, players will always find a way to defeat your precious code (see: Wall of Justice).
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  9. #9
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    So then the playerbase aren't idiots, are they?

    I'm trying to understand this pedestal some of you place the developers on, and why you think we have to bow down and idolize them without criticizing.
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  10. #10
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    Debugging is not the same as changing content into what the players want.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimagi View Post
    Debugging is not the same as changing content into what the players want.
    But you said that players are idiots, and don't know what the fuck they want.

    What if all some people want is a bug-free game, or at least a game that's not easily exploitable (READ: Salvage dupes) ?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    So then the playerbase aren't idiots, are they?

    I'm trying to understand this pedestal some of you place the developers on, and why you think we have to bow down and idolize them without criticizing.
    If you're not going to read what people say and instead make up an extreme point loosely interpreted from what they're actually saying, you're better off not continuing a conversation at all.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryko View Post
    If you're not going to read what people say and instead make up an extreme point loosely interpreted from what they're actually saying, you're better off not continuing a conversation at all.
    ^
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  14. #14
    Ryko's Full of Lies and Johns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryko View Post
    Players who feel entitled are what makes jobs obsolete or overpowered.
    This

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryko View Post
    If you're not going to read what people say and instead make up an extreme point loosely interpreted from what they're actually saying, you're better off not continuing a conversation at all.
    And, Jesus Christ, this.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryko View Post
    If you're not going to read what people say and instead make up an extreme point loosely interpreted from what they're actually saying, you're better off not continuing a conversation at all.
    Actually the point of "The playerbase are idiots. They don't know what the fuck they're talking about. The developers know exactly what they are doing at all times and don't need input from peons like you" is an extreme point.

    Extreme point, meet extreme point. Don't see the problem here.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post
    Actually the point of "The playerbase are idiots. They don't know what the fuck they're talking about. The developers know exactly what they are doing at all times and don't need input from peons like you" is an extreme point.

    Extreme point, meet extreme point. Don't see the problem here.
    Are you just trying to make my case for me?

    http://i42.tinypic.com/9uce51.png

    Is this easier to understand?

    If you're not going to read what people say and instead make up an extreme point to respond to loosely interpreted from what they're actually saying, you're better off not continuing a conversation at all.
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  17. #17
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryko View Post
    The devs implement the idea, the userbase mentions the obvious GLARING exploits/flaws/hard coded timesinks/roadblocks in the system, the devs fix those glaring flaws.

    That's where it should end. Players who feel entitled are what makes jobs obsolete or overpowered.
    Players can and do point out inbalances in jobs quite often too. Most of the time it is just whining, but sometimes there is a grain of truth in the information.

    Ignoring the whining because most players are stupid is a bad idea. That doesn't mean that they should indulge it, instead they should tell the players why they are wrong, or look at the situation to see if there is any real value to the complaints.

    For example, "Nerf Ridill WAR" was a common complaint before the two-handed update, that did have a kernel of truth to it. The complaints about dual-wielding probably lead, at least partially, to the two-handed update, which was a very good thing for game balance on the whole.

    Player entitlement is definitely stupid, but so is developer entitlement. Just not to the same extreme.
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  18. #18
    The Mizzle Fizzle of Nikkei's Haremizzle

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    Rykos got this, nothing else to see here folks. Move it on along...
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  19. #19
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    The playerbase, regardless of level of intelligence or experience, is often of the exact same mindset.

    "If it benefits me, who cares who got shafted"

    Now this can be taken to different extremes obviously, but ignoring what it implies aside from the subject at hand, I'm speaking specifically about things like job/economy updates. When the 2 handed patch first got added, despite the fact that I easily got the most benefit out of almost anyone on this board, I was one of the few people to state that it was WAY WAY WAY too much and it was uncalled for. Up until I voiced my concern about it everyone was hoping that it wouldn't change. Something so glaringly broken and all people could think about was "YAY PEOPLE WANT US NOW". It was disgusting, the entitlement of players will always preclude good balanced updates.

    Conventional (see: shitty) paladins got the shaft for so long that all SE did was listen to the whiners of alla telling them that it wasn't enough. It stopped being enough the second shield blocks stopped casting interruptions. Did it end there? Hell the fuck no. Ninja stopped being useful in like late 05', but SE was so hell bent on pandering to the bitching from yesteryear that ninja got overlooked for just as many years on the back end. So many people are hell bent on the game being "as it was intended" (Paladin should sword and board it why am I using an earth staff blah blah blah though I will admit the shield update to PLD was called for) instead of adapting to the game as it is ("It's still not enough I want war to be my sub wah wah wah wah" oh shut the fuck up and just sub ninja). Those players stifle community development, why in god's name would anyone give them what they want?
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  20. #20
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    I was coming up with a great reply when I started reading the thread but then Miz and Ryko of all people pretty much said everything I was going to say.

    The problem that comes from interaction is where and how to filter the feedback. Most of the players that scream the loudest for change are the ones that can't recognize the difference between change that benefits everyone and change that benefits themselves.
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