Moghancement vs. Moglification

[Gilhaven]

I was looking at the guild furniture today for clothcraft and was wondering what the difference was between these two other than the fact moglification reduces material loss?
As far as I can gather the tapestry gives +1 but combined with the signboard they only still give +1 but reduce loss rate. Does anyone know roughly by how much (%) it reduces it by? If its like 1% (like most things) then is it really worth the 200k GP's? Also, does moglification work the same as moghancements, in that it has to be the strongest furniture piece/aura strength etc etc...for it to work or does your moghancement: clothcraft automatically become moglification: clothcraft when u set it up? I'm trying to weigh the value for my time invested with this one...do I get a good bang for my buck? If anyone has done much testing with this (or any moglification set up) I'd like to hear your opinion. thanks in advance.

[arkias]

Well as for % I have no clue how strong the effect is, but depending on the items you craft the signboard is worth it. Example. 200k Gp for bonecraft costs about 500k gil so if the signboard ever proc's on a cursed hands/legs/feet/etcetc synth, thats 700k saved which instantly covers all the money you spent into the signboard. Plus more. Besides, it looks nice in your MH when guests come over.

[Vodou]

Depends on what you are making.

For example, I craft a lot of HQ staves and the loss rate reduction on beads from a failed synth is nil. (I saved maybe a total of 3 or 4 beads in 2.5 years before and maybe 2 or 3 after moglification.)

On the other hand, if what you will craft heavily has a failure rate that is not 99.9% loss, but something more realistic like 5-10% loss, then I could see it helping quite a bit, expecially if its expensive.

Why not do it if you are a level 100 crafter, its sort of pro.

[Zerv]

does your moghancement: clothcraft automatically become moglification: clothcraft when u set it up?

Yea. I "lost" my moghancement: Smithing to get Moglification: Smithing when i got my Signboard

[Gilhaven]

allrighty..good info thanks.

[Mindinho]

I agree, right now i'm trying to decide if i want the Emeralda and Alchemist's Signboard, would it really make difference when i synth....? Any alchemist have them?

[Rilu]

I have my cloth signboard, and I only put it up when people are going to come into my moghouse (so for looks). I always synth with my Mogenhancement, not Moglification.

[Clave]

I have my cloth signboard, and I only put it up when people are going to come into my moghouse (so for looks). I always synth with my Mogenhancement, not Moglification.

Why would you choose to synth with the mogenhancement instead of the moglification?

[Vodou]

Why would you choose to synth with the mogenhancement instead of the moglification?

I WW.

I originally had mogenhancement. Then got moglification.

Then (about 1 year ago)? SE changed around the energy values on some of the furniture that took away the moglification effect. When I looked at what new furniture I needed (at that time), it was so stupid, I just crafted with mogenhancement.

In WW crafting HQ staves, trust me, moglification is worthless.

Anyway, when SE add some new furnitures about 4-5 months ago?, I was able to swap it back with little trouble.

Each craft has different furnishing issues on how to gain the effect.

[Clave]

I WW.

I originally had mogenhancement. Then got moglification.

Then (about 1 year ago)? SE changed around the energy values on some of the furniture that took away the moglification effect. When I looked at what new furniture I needed (at that time), it was so stupid, I just crafted with mogenhancement.

In WW crafting HQ staves, trust me, moglification is worthless.

Anyway, when SE add some new furnitures about 4-5 months ago?, I was able to swap it back with little trouble.

Each craft has different furnishing issues on how to gain the effect.

I don't get it. If you have the mogenhancement, then just add the other furnishing to turn it into moglification. It's not worse, it can only help you. It may be "worthless" in some synths but I see no reason not to use it if you have it available. Talking about whether it's worth it to get both furnishings in the first place is an entirely different conversation and I am not getting into that.

I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning behind what I was replying to. My question was, if you had the choice of mogenhancement vs moglification, why would you ever pick mogenhancement for your craft? All it takes is simply adding the other furnishing if the mogenhancement is in effect. Ex: You have Mogenhancement: Woodworking active? You should not need to do anything special. All you need to do is add the other guild furnishing. That is it. Nothing else is required.

That is, unless, I'm missing some piece of information. I am asking to see if this is the case.

[Vodou]

I don't get it. If you have the mogenhancement, then just add the other furnishing to turn it into moglification. It's not worse, it can only help you. It may be "worthless" in some synths but I see no reason not to use it if you have it available. Talking about whether it's worth it to get both furnishings in the first place is an entirely different conversation and I am not getting into that.

I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning behind what I was replying to. My question was, if you had the choice of mogenhancement vs moglification, why would you ever pick mogenhancement for your craft? All it takes is simply adding the other furnishing if the mogenhancement is in effect. Ex: You have Mogenhancement: Woodworking active? You should not need to do anything special. All you need to do is add the other guild furnishing. That is it. Nothing else is required.

That is, unless, I'm missing some piece of information. I am asking to see if this is the case.

I'll quote the relevant parts of my post:

"When I looked at what new furniture I needed (at that time), it was so stupid, I just crafted with mogenhancement." and

"In WW crafting HQ staves, trust me, moglification is worthless."

I can't recreate for you what the existing furnishings were at that time that I chose to keep mogenhancement over moglification. But I can tell you that it was STUPID, like getting 13 maple tables or 20 ivory back scratchers. I'm not going to go do that so I can get an enhancement that does nothing for what I craft.

Most crafts have a different set of furniture that will enable their own moglification to take effect (it is based upon elemental traits on the furnishings) and not every craft can do it as easily as others. If you assumed it was the same and that each crafter is willing and able to do so regardless of the benefit or lack of benefit of the moglification effect, then I would differ with you.

I will state this just so maybe I can be more clear: moglification for a WW that makes only HQ staves is completely, totally and utterly useless. It provides no benefit at all. Zero.

[Clave]

I've read every part of your posts. Please reply to mine.

"When I looked at what new furniture I needed (at that time), it was so stupid, I just crafted with mogenhancement."

If you add the second furnishing, then you'd have moglification. There is no special furnishing configuration in addition to what you already have to make it work.

You say you have mogenhancement. You have both furnishing available, yes? Put the other one in your mog house. It will change to moglification. Reply to this statement for me once you try it, keeping all other furnishings exactly the same. (Only change you are to make is to add the second guild furnishing).

Verify that:
-Your starting mogenhancement is Mogenhancement: Woodworking.
-You make no changes to your mog house layout other than adding the second guild furnishing.

"In WW crafting HQ staves, trust me, moglification is worthless."

But it can't hurt you. Having it on will help you with the synths it does help with.

I will repeat my question because it has yet to be answered.

Why would you choose to synth with the mogenhancement instead of the moglification?

It can't hurt you in ANY situation. It can only HELP you in the synths in which it does. Saying it doesn't help with staves with woodworking isn't an answer to my question. It seems to me some people are under the belief that moglification is harder to attain than mogenhancement. This is not the case if you have both furnishings.

The update you mentioned changed the elemental strengths of various furnishings. I was affected by this too. This was the update in which they dramatically increased the storage capacity of some furnishing so they needed to increase their elemental strengths to balance it. My mogenhancement: clothcraft was replaced by mogenhancement: fire. Moglification does not require any special configuration other than being able to attain the mogenhancement for your craft. Once the mogenhancement for your craft is dominant, simply add the second furnishing. I think this is where you have your facts mixed up. The person I replied to said he prefered to synth in mogenhancement for his craft and not moglification. This makes no sense to me, and I've been trying to find the reasoning behind it. I suspected it was because of a misunderstanding in how to attain moglification. So far it seems that is correct. I don't mind being wrong if I was missing some piece of information. But I assure you this is how moglification works.

[Vodou]

I've read every part of your posts. Please reply to mine.

If you add the second furnishing, then you'd have moglification. There is no special furnishing configuration in addition to what you already have to make it work.

You say you have mogenhancement. You have both furnishing available, yes? Put the other one in your mog house. It will change to moglification. Reply to this statement for me once you try it, keeping all other furnishings exactly the same. (Only change you are to make is to add the second guild furnishing).

Verify that:
-Your starting mogenhancement is Mogenhancement: Woodworking.
-You make no changes to your mog house layout other than adding the second guild furnishing.

But it can't hurt you. Having it on will help you with the synths it does help with.

I will repeat my question because it has yet to be answered.

Why would you choose to synth with the mogenhancement instead of the moglification?

It can't hurt you in ANY situation. It can only HELP you in the synths in which it does. Saying it doesn't help with staves with woodworking isn't an answer to my question. It seems to me some people are under the belief that moglification is harder to attain than mogenhancement. This is not the case if you have both furnishings.

The update you mentioned changed the elemental strengths of various furnishings. I was affected by this too. This was the update in which they dramatically increased the storage capacity of some furnishing so they needed to increase their elemental strengths to balance it. My mogenhancement: clothcraft was replaced by mogenhancement: fire. Moglification does not require any special configuration other than being able to attain the mogenhancement for your craft. Once the mogenhancement for your craft is dominant, simply add the second furnishing. I think this is where you have your facts mixed up. The person I replied to said he prefered to synth in mogenhancement for his craft and not moglification. This makes no sense to me, and I've been trying to find the reasoning behind it. I suspected it was because of a misunderstanding in how to attain moglification. So far it seems that is correct. I don't mind being wrong if I was missing some piece of information. But I assure you this is how moglification works.

Ok, your pestering (I mean this in a genuinely friendly way) has made me look back at my decisions and data back then. My answer in hindsight was half correct.

I used moglification when it came out (spring of last year) until the September patch changed many of the furniture aura strengths thus making my furnishings not work properly. Basically, bahuts became dominant and I had to toss them and then recreate my furnishings.

I did so and re established the moglification and began crafting with the worst crafting luck I've ever seen. I doubt the changes in the aura strengths specifically affected this, but obviously they were mucking around with the code that impacts auras and resulting enhancements. My results were on the order of about 12% synth rate on HQ staves over a run of about 230 craftings. (market loss: ~$15MM.) Statistically, you can't randomly have a run like that if the 'real' rate is 25% and random. I attributed this to a coding screw up and decided the moglification was not working (the +1 was gone), since 12% looks correct if one assumes the real rate is 10% (i.e., the +1 on the furniture was not being seen.)

Went down to mogenhancement and my 'correct' rate returned. End of story.

I still stand by the statement that is does not help HQ staves.

Anyway, I had forgotten losing all those HQ staves and (/sarcasm on) thanks for reminding me.

[tymora]

You are probably doing something else wrong then.
I see no noticeable difference in my staves HQ rate after upgrading to moglification. ~25%.

Combined Synths Total = 1427

Moglification is supposed to be good for all crafts. Ignoring the technical question of exactly how MUCH it helps, you are essentially combining the effects of "Material loss reduced from while using X crystal" for all recipes in your craft, on top of adding +1 to your skill.

On the side,
I don't have enough data to give a confident number at the moment (nor for the near future), but it seems reasonable to place that the maximum possible benefit from overwhelming moghancement (not moglification) + Artisan's Advantage, is somewhere around 10%.

E.g. For recipes with normal loss rates of around 50% per material, I recorded a few runs of about 50 synths each between 37 and 43%.

Break-synthing is a great way to do some research into this. My data comes from GS 67 to 77.
The more ingredients required, the easier to get the data.

[Vodou]

You are probably doing something else wrong then.
I see no noticeable difference in my staves HQ rate after upgrading to moglification. ~25%.

Combined Synths Total = 1427

Moglification is supposed to be good for all crafts. Ignoring the technical question of exactly how MUCH it helps, you are essentially combining the effects of "Material loss reduced from while using X crystal" for all recipes in your craft, on top of adding +1 to your skill.

On the side,
I don't have enough data to give a confident number at the moment (nor for the near future), but it seems reasonable to place that the maximum possible benefit from overwhelming moghancement (not moglification) + Artisan's Advantage, is somewhere around 10%.

E.g. For recipes with normal loss rates of around 50% per material, I recorded a few runs of about 50 synths each between 37 and 43%.

Break-synthing is a great way to do some research into this. My data comes from GS 67 to 77.
The more ingredients required, the easier to get the data.

I don't think you quite understood my post or maybe I don't understand yours.

First, I've done far more than 1,400 synths and do know how to do it right.
Second, SE has from time to time messed up the crafting codes after a patch.
Third, I don't think it's possible to get the results I got unless the code had been changed.
Fourth, I know my historical craft rate on HQ synths and track it constantly. The change was stark.
Fifth, The rate changed back to the expected rate when I reverted to Mogenhancement
Sixth, I am not saying it does not work today. I'm saying it was broken then.
Seventh, Moglification has no effect on certain crafts including HQ staves. This is in the sticky and I can validate what the sticky says from personal crafting experience over 5 years.

[tymora]

Following your 6th point and my post...
It didn't used to work as it is supposed to but now it is.

Conclusion: No harm getting moglification. Now to quantify the effects...

[Vodou]

Following your 6th point and my post...
It didn't used to work as it is supposed to but now it is.

Conclusion: No harm getting moglification. Now to quantify the effects...

The effect it has on HQ staffs (which is pretty much all I do) is this: 0.00%

That is to say, well within the margin of error to be considered a null effect. I save absolutely no more beads from a failed synth as I did before it existed in the game.

Consider it quantified.

[Julian]

Not everyone is a woodworker who only synths elemental staffs.

[hollabackcerb]

I have the moglification for CC and while it reduces Crit fails for me (no more then 5% tops) I seem to have a hard as hell time HQ with it in place rather then the mog enhancement. I primarily use it for desynth and take out one piece for synths I am trying to HQ.

[tymora]

I have the moglification for CC and while it reduces Crit fails for me (no more then 5% tops) I seem to have a hard as hell time HQ with it in place rather then the mog enhancement. I primarily use it for desynth and take out one piece for synths I am trying to HQ.

That would be kind of strange since...
1. It only reduces chance of item loss, not change of a break.
2. It only gives +1 skill and neither add/reduce change of HQ.

Unless the poor ass programmer gave it a -1 skill instead of +1, this is all in your head, just placebo. But unlike believing in direction/moon phases, you actually do lose some purported benefits not using moglification.

So...it's really up to you.

For me, the recipes I want to HQ have all the most expensive materials in it so those are the recipes I want the -chance of item loss at.