Question regarding Multi-hit Weapon Skills (i.e. Asuran Fists) & Double Attack Job/Equip Trait

[dantes]

I could not get a straight answer on a simple question from anyone in game or any other resource (wiki, alla, ki, etc), so I wanted to ask the experts. I feel bad for asking a not really advanced question in this forum, so please lock if this is inappropiate.

So here are the facts I know:

- You cannot hit more than 8 times in an attack round including WS (thus you cannot double attack if you hit all hits on an 8-hit WS like Asuran)

Now my questions are simple...

- Does a miss attack count towards the 8-hit cap?
- Can you double attack the next attack if the miss doesn't count towards the 8-hit cap?
- What about a WS like Blade:Jin, can you double attack up to an 8-hit cap?

[Neosutra]

Yes miss attacks count toward the 8.

Cant DA on an 8 hit WS.

Cant answer the DA on Blade Jin question, as I dont know if there is a limit on number of hits that can DA on a WS.

[Trocian]

- What about a WS like Blade:Jin, can you double attack up to an 8-hit cap?

Afaik, you can't DA more than twice on a WS?

[dantes]

So Brutal Earring for Blade:Jin, Merman Earring or Storm Loop for Asuran Fists?

Is this the consensus?

[ringthree]

You can only have 8 attacks in a round, hit or miss.

It is highly probable that you can get more than one DA per WS, but I am not sure if proof positive of this was ever fully established.

[AoshiZ]

Yes miss attacks count toward the 8.

Cant DA on an 8 hit WS.

Cant answer the DA on Blade Jin question, as I dont know if there is a limit on number of hits that can DA on a WS.

As far as I understand it, misses counting toward the 8 or not has not been proven. Proving whether it does or does not count would require a lot of testing with a high DA rate and seeing the amount of accuracy increased from 95% Cap. Which is very difficult because you would need to get your standard deviation much lower than the remaining 5% between 95 and 100.

Maximum number of DA would logically be 2x the number of hits the WS can do. Jin being a 3 hit WS it can only go to 6 hits. Dual wield can potentially increase it to 8 maybe.

I have hit 8 hits with drakesbane before. The information about max DA on WS being 2 extra hits from the Wiki is incorrect.

[Ashokan]

What about a WS like Blade:Jin, can you double attack up to an 8-hit cap?

You cannot DA more than once per hand, thus you can only get a 6-hit.

[Darlantan]

Maximum number of DA would logically be 2x the number of hits the WS can do. Jin being a 3 hit WS it can only go to 6 hits. Dual wield can potentially increase it to 8 maybe.

I have hit 8 hits with drakesbane before. The information about max DA on WS being 2 extra hits from the Wiki is incorrect.

Wrong. Can only double attack twice per ws, period.

[dantes]

Looks like there's still quite a debate on this.

I think I'm going to go with Merman's earring for Asuran Fists though.

Even if you can only hit DA twice in WS, I think that still validates Brutal for Blade:Jin. Agreement or disagreement?

[Leroy]

I though there was actually a post about this a long, long time ago on BG, with a SS of an obscenely huge Guillotine number that supposedly had a TP return denoting 7 or 8 hits or something, and the general consensus was two-handers could proc DA once on every swing up to 8, and the reason we didn't see those numbers more often was because getting DA to proc more than twice on guillotine, and to actually land 7-8 hits (even with capped acc), was such a small chance that you'd rarely, if ever, notice it.

[AoshiZ]

Wrong. Can only double attack twice per ws, period.

Great can you show us the source of this information?

With full Ares, Fighters roll, Brutal Earing, and a warrior in the group. I've managed to test 8 Hit Penta thrusts and an 8 hit drakesbane with the TP return calculation without being hit to offset the calculation. I suggest you test for yourself since its extremely easy to do and disregard people that say: "Wrong!" and provide nothing to verify.

[Darlantan]

As a warrior myself, I have never seen any ridiculous tp return that would indicate over 2 double attacks. I would like to see a pic or something about that 8-hit Drakesbane, seriously. Are you sure you hadnt got Sam roll for that one ws, or you were hit twice as you wss, sir?

[Raen Ryong]

I've seen two 7hit Guillotines in my time playing DRK without being hit and with damage matching. I'm very sure that the "only 2x DA per WS" thing is there because the chances of you seeing higher is very, very low.

Why the number two?

[Malacite]

Pretty sure it caps at 2 DA per WS, and that's only if you're Dual-Wielding.

I didn't know DA can't proc on Asuran Fists however O.o where's the proof of that?


All I can say on the matter is in the 5+ years I've had WAR 75 I've never struck more than 8 times during a Rampage with /NIN.

[AoshiZ]

As a warrior myself, I have never seen any ridiculous tp return that would indicate over 2 double attacks. I would like to see a pic or something about that 8-hit Drakesbane, seriously. Are you sure you hadnt got Sam roll for that one ws, or you were hit twice as you wss, sir?

Yes because we were testing this topic specifically to test the value of using an Ares Multi-Hit WS set.

It only takes 1 proof to disprove your argument of 2 double attacks. Any reader here should take their own time and find the truth for themselves since its incredibly easy with war sub and a corsair to verify that you can go beyond the 2 hit count. I also suggest individuals try using Penta thrust since it has the most chances to DA to get to 8 from 5 and disprove the 2 hit theory.

I'd love to give you a picture, but nothing i can provide within a picture can prove that i wasn't hit afterwards even if I attempt to show a large log people can question anything.

Just go test it yourselves.

[Spider-Dan]

I know that single-wield Shark Bite (two hits) has been shown to land 5 hits before, meaning 2A and 3A both proc'ed on the same hand..

[AoshiZ]

I've seen two 7hit Guillotines in my time playing DRK without being hit and with damage matching. I'm very sure that the "only 2x DA per WS" thing is there because the chances of you seeing higher is very, very low.

Why the number two?

Raen is correct the culmulative chance of proccing DA on many different hits is low which is a good reason why people may have come up with an arbitrary number of 2.

I believe Warriors testing with Raging Rush generally have extremely low chances of getting 6 hits because of their initial low swing count of 3. Rampage can be a good test candidate if it were used without dual wielding for the extra hit.

[Darlantan]

All right. I have a few times thought I had hit 3 double attacks on KJ and RR, but could never prove it, really. Figured they were weird tp returns from being hit, rolls and stuff.

With the buffs you say, you are looking at a 1/3*1/3*1/3*1/3 chance at 4 double attacks with Drakesbane, not so bad. 1/81, there should be tons of pics with insane tp returns and damage out there, basicly you could get 1 or 2 of those every other party.

It would be much easier to prove by posting a pic with the tp return, damage and the log to see if you were hit or not than to post the 3000 ws pics I (and anyone else) does every week with normal tp returns.

[Anomander]

All right. I have a few times thought I had hit 3 double attacks on KJ and RR, but could never prove it, really. Figured they were weird tp returns from being hit, rolls and stuff.

With the buffs you say, you are looking at a 1/3*1/3*1/3*1/3 chance at 4 double attacks with Drakesbane, not so bad. 1/81, there should be tons of pics with insane tp returns and damage out there, basicly you could get 1 or 2 of those every other party.

It would be much easier to prove by posting a pic with the tp return, damage and the log to see if you were hit or not than to post the 3000 ws pics I (and anyone else) does every week with normal tp returns.

The chances of landing 8 straight hits, even at the accuracy cap, isn't superb, about 66 percent. Couple that with the pretty low chance to even get the supposed massive DA procs, and these massive weaponskills become much more rare (not sure if this is the correct way to calculate the probability, but I'll give it a shot: 1/81 is .012, .95^8 is .663, multiply those chances together and you have .007, or .7% chance. 7/1000?)

Hmm, even with those kraken club rates, thats not totally unheard of. As you mentioned, there should be pics of this happening out there.

Personally, I don't subscribe to the theory that DA can proc on every hit of the weaponskill. Out of curiosity, why is it generally accepted that 2 DA procs is the limit? It seems strange that a two handed weapon can proc twice on a multi hit weaponskill (raging rush, etc.). It would seem to make more sense that you are given a chance for each hand.

[ringthree]

As far as I understand it, misses counting toward the 8 or not has not been proven. Proving whether it does or does not count would require a lot of testing with a high DA rate and seeing the amount of accuracy increased from 95% Cap. Which is very difficult because you would need to get your standard deviation much lower than the remaining 5% between 95 and 100.

Maximum number of DA would logically be 2x the number of hits the WS can do. Jin being a 3 hit WS it can only go to 6 hits. Dual wield can potentially increase it to 8 maybe.

I have hit 8 hits with drakesbane before. The information about max DA on WS being 2 extra hits from the Wiki is incorrect.

The 8 attack-cap-per-round has been tested so extensively that it would be "can you paralyze a WS" level question.