NIN/RDM vs NIN/DRK

[Dramafinderftw]

Just wanted to ask a couple of questions, since the update it seems NIN has been used a little more for tanking since Yonin. I just would like opinions on which sub is better or which is situational.

1. What sub do you prefer?

2. Which SJ does NIN gain the most out of, enmity wise and tanking.

3. can NIN stay up to par with PLD hate wise?

4. What kind of support is needed with /RDM and /DRK?

I just been wanting to test NIN out since the update and wondering which sub would be more beneficial.
Thanks

[Meko]

Well, if I'm not mistaken, 2 of the bigger hate building spells are "Blaze Spikes" and "Stun". Bind/Sleep assist but the main ones are the 2 I mentioned. DRK also brings Souleater and other hate grabbing abilities. I've only tanked with NIN/DRK and having your own stun is nice for recast of Ichi or just to stop the mob from aoe etc. I prefer DRK for that reason mostly. For instance, tanking MG @ Sky is cake with NIN/DRK because I can just stun the ga spells without hoping a BLM or DRK is paying attention etc. I'm sure somebody will provide some better evidence other than opinion. I'm interested too.

[dejet]

1)drk
2)id say drk, you have the JA's that give nuts amounts of hate along with stun that can save your but from time to time. If you are using a earth staff you also have a 2nd Stun(wep bash) that can save you from time to time.
3)nin/drk even more so then before can hold hate better then a pld . Way i see it, pld is only better if you are getting hit.(pld has JAs and spells to help it pull hate back and heal itself/negate dmg if shadows go down to fast.
4)You need some form of refresh and you also want some form of haste if you are tanking. This to me does not seem any different then pld tank. Although you do need refresh because you can not take any hate at all without it.

I just do not see the point of rdm sub. Phx Will not negate anything as a sub job and drk gives you a lot more if you ask me.


this could help you pick yourself id you do not like any of the answers.

Kanican - Enmity Table (DRK)

as a drk sub you will mostly use poisos,bind, and sleep if it is not a mob like fafnir that you might need to sleep at a later point, stun is best saved for if your co tank rips to much hate, it has a nice spike in VS and a big chunk in CS also.

editL it does depend on the mob tho, fafnir you would nto use sleep on but you would use stun spam to get your CE up, Khim you would spam sleep to get CE up but not stun and so on. You have to look at the mob and see what you should cast.

[Zosi]

NIN/DRK gives you a bunch of JAs to spam for a VE spike, NIN/RDM gives you a high-CE spammable spell (Dispel) that you can use on mobs that you shouldn't be stunning as well as a little fast cast and magic def. Most of the hate spam spells are the same.

NIN/DRK definitely wins on things that you can effectively stun, NIN/DRK probably slightly wins on things you can't stun, and NIN/RDM wins on things you shouldn't stun.

[arshesney]

1) Based on mob, (i.e. don't go /drk to khim), but mainly /rdm for Fast Cast and MDB.

2) They are much different, /drk lets you cap hate quicker than /rdm, gives you hate spikes tools, but both bind and stun have a fairly high recast, which might become an issue when you are trying to keep hate capped. Subbing rdm on the other hand gives you Dispel and Blind, which are hax in terms of hate, both on a laughable timer (5~ secs). Getting to hate cap is a bit slower than /drk, but once there it is a joke keeping it up. Fast Cast helps in the ohshit moments when you have to get ichi up defenseless and to recast timers in general.

3) Know your co-tank, PLD can put out hate bursts you can't match. The most important thing is keep in mind you aren't tanking alone (same applies to other rank), try to find a balance, bounce hate. Cold start, PLD will tank, when you close the gap both are on a even level.

4) Haste + Refresh and a healer who know his job, Marches too. Ninja doesn't get Cure IV insurance unfortunately, when shit hits the fan you're entirely dependant on your support. If you can have a SCH in your tank pt it is even easier (SS/phalanx/aquaveil).

[Dramafinderftw]

Another question, how is NIN/DRK / NIN/RDM vs Ixion? Is it a dependable tank ?

[Amastacia]

1. For most things, I prefer /DRK. Primarily due to comfort/experience, and because on any fight where it's not disadvantageous to use Stun, it's a hax spell.

2. Situational. Both are quite good. I would tend to give /RDM a slight edge on Enmity generation especially once at the TE cap, but it loses the utility of Stun (generate hate and cover my Utsu recast? Don't mind if I do!).

3. NIN has pretty much always been able to keep up with PLD from a hate perspective, especially on anything that doesn't completely shred shadows. The problem with NIN has always been survivability and support constraints, not hate generation problems.

4. Lots of Haste and MP regen. PLD has an innately useful MP pool. NIN/mage does not. Getting recasts down is critical (most notably Stun's rather painful recast), and any long lapse in Refresh/Ballad leads to severely compromised Enmity generation since there isn't an emergency supply of several hundred MP to blow through.

NIN fits fine into what I would consider a "normal" tank party of [tank, tank, BRD, RDM, WHM], and can easily work with [tank, BRD, RDM] for small-man stuff. So long as Utsusemi is able to mitigate most damage and the support is able to keep buffs up and statuses off, there's not a lot of active intervention needed beyond that. I prefer Haste + Refresh + March + Ballad II, I know some other NINs have slightly different preferences.

It's just a shame that Yonin did nothing to address the fundamental issues facing NIN as an endgame tank.

Edit: NIN is pretty much ass on Ixion.

[Argettio]

Required support
A good NIN should have over 20% haste from gear.

To get to the recast cap (50%) they therefore need ~30% from support, which means Haste spell (15%) and 1 march (depending on the bard 10-12%) will be around ~45-47% haste (50% if the have Vbelt and Dusk+1).

If they are lacking any of the standard haste gear or you need to hit the recast cap then a second march is required.

Refresh is obvious for spell spam, and if you are only using 1 march then you can also give 1 ballad.

You best WHM should always be in your Tank party no matter what tank you have.

Building Hate
NIN can get to the hate cap and should be able to stay there, but I'm not sure they can get there as fast as a PLD. A PLD can open a fight with Sentinel + Flash + Cure cheat + Atonement. Whereas NIN can open with Yonin + a few JAs and spells, although it is easier NIN to build CE (all PLD JAs are VE only).

Holding hate
Both jobs should be capable of maintaining high hate once they get there, then it just comes down to surviving with hate.They just run through their cycle of spells and JAs constantly 'topping up' VE and replacing any lost CE from getting hit/lossing shadows

Surviving with hate
Which is where I think PLD pulls ahead. A PLD with similar support (1 more march may be required) can also cap recast timers but is better designed to cope with shadows going down with sentinel, shield bash, invincible etc, whereas NIN has to depend on a damage taken set and hope for the best.

Basically a good PLD should be able to keep shadows as well as a good NIN, but is less likely to get killed if shadows go down.

Conclusion
I think this update was good for NIN and has improved their tanking ability and in any situation you used to use NIN you still can and it may have opened up a . But I don't think it is enough to get them to the level they can compete with PLD. That is partly due to people mind set and how they are used to playing.

[ringthree]

Just wanted to ask a couple of questions, since the update it seems NIN has been used a little more for tanking since Yonin. I just would like opinions on which sub is better or which is situational.

1. What sub do you prefer?

2. Which SJ does NIN gain the most out of, enmity wise and tanking.

3. can NIN stay up to par with PLD hate wise?

4. What kind of support is needed with /RDM and /DRK?

I just been wanting to test NIN out since the update and wondering which sub would be more beneficial.
Thanks

1. I only have experience with /DRK, but for hate it is fine. It really is the equivalent to PLD/NIN when it comes to hate with Yonin. Stun has the same exact values for hate, mp, cast speed and recast as Flash.

2. Overtime /DRK and /RDM should be equal, but getting initial hate is easier with /DRK. /RDM has no "initial pull" hate-get. Dispel is good, but not equal.

3. Yes, but once people started using /DRK that was never really an issue. NIN's issue now more has to do with dealing with unavoidable damage.

4. RDM and BRD. For anything minor either will do, but for anything you are concerned about you should have both. Also depending on songs and gear it frees you up to use better defensive gear. That all being said you will never be equal to a PLD in defensive options.

I believe that Yonin is such a boon to NIN tanking that hate is no longer an issue, but there are other issues that mean that NIN still isn't on par with PLD. I would have much preferred if Yonin had a damage reduction component. Also, PLD still gets to use it's best weapons (sword and shield) while heavy tanking, NIN has to use a weapon they have no skill in at all.

What NIN really needs is a matching set of relatively decent damage, relatively high delay Katanas with the Set Effect of -10% Damage Taken, +10 Enmity and +10 Subtle Blow. This would allow NIN to eat Durado Sushi or Marinara Pizza +1, and do a little damage for hate and equal out some of the benefits that PLD has over NIN defensively. This of course is just wishing on a star and many different people prefer to tank on NIN in different ways.

[ringthree]

Required support
A good NIN should have over 20% haste from gear.

To get to the recast cap (50%) they therefore need ~30% from support, which means Haste spell (15%) and 1 march (depending on the bard 10-12%) will be around ~45-47% haste (50% if the have Vbelt and Dusk+1).

If they are lacking any of the standard haste gear or you need to hit the recast cap then a second march is required.

Refresh is obvious for spell spam, and if you are only using 1 march then you can also give 1 ballad.

You best WHM should always be in your Tank party no matter what tank you have.

While I generally agree and support your ideas, the "A good NIN should have over 20% haste from gear" is a little over doing it.

Walahra Turban = 5%
Dusk Gloves = 3%
Swift Belt = 4%
Byakko's Haidate = 5%
Usukane Sune-ate = 2% (Fuma Sune-ate = 3%, but I prefer Usukane for the enmity)

That is 19% there and I would say that is fine for tanking even with just one March and Haste. The difference between 45% and 50% haste on recast is only 2-3 seconds for Ni (I think it's 2, but someone else with more knowledge on the reduction cap and rounding can say for sure). That can be a world of difference sometimes, but it usually is not.

I am not saying you shouldn't strive for more (hell, who doesn't want a Speed Belt? LOL) but if you need high levels of hate I think 19~20% is a good goal.

There is also a good chance you just meant at least (19-)20% haste from gear, and if you did then I pretty much completely agree with you.

Surprisingly, with March and Haste, dumping the Walahra Turban for an Arhat's Jinpachi +1 should only make the difference between than and capped haste 4 seconds for Ni (again if I have the rounding and recast cap numbers correct).

[Argettio]

stuff

Yes I meant 20 or over

But I will rephrase:

A good NIN should have a 20% or over haste build for recasting shadows. (kitty pants being the only hard piece to get)

Enmity is not important when casting shadows, so I would use Fuma if I had room to carry them.

Also Loq earring = 1% recast, so 20% with Usu feet is possible.

And I did say you if you need capped timers then a second march is a very good idea as if nothing else it means if the NIN has some flexibility and can cast in Arhat's hat when it is all going tits up then he is still capping recast timers.

So yes, we argee :D

[ringthree]

Yes I meant 20 or over

But I will rephrase:

A good NIN should have a 20% or over haste build for recasting shadows. (kitty pants being the only hard piece to get)

Enmity is not important when casting shadows, so I would use Fuma if I had room to carry them.

Also Loq earring = 1% recast, so 20% with Usu feet is possible.

And I did say you if you need capped timers then a second march is a very good idea as if nothing else it means if the NIN has some flexibility and can cast in Arhat's hat when it is all going tits up then he is still capping recast timers.

So yes, we argee :D

Ah ha! Forgot about Loquacious!

Is this the part where I say that I don't swap gear for casting because my mages don't like me blinking and then hide from Neo-bomb-blast?

Isn't that like the Neo signal, right?

[Dramafinderftw]

you shouldnt tank if you dont blink >.>

[Tulun]

I will say nin doesn't 'hope for the best'. Simply counting shadows can make most damage avoidable... and NINs who have to tank get very good at this quickly. If a mob has a lot of wipe shadows move and can't be slowed (etc) than yeah... it might be a problem.

PLD has more 'oshit' JA (Invincible, Sentinel, Rampart) and Atonement allows them to DD. Those are their biggest natural advantages over a NIN.

[Max™]

Nin tanks great, always did, cue the Ruke/Richardd signals, Pld/Nin is just super buff.

If Pld hadn't gotten Atonement, this would be a completely different update, as it is, any Pld with Atonement is both a ridiculous DD and pumps hate like a fucking machine designed as a hatepump should.

I personally LOVE the recast timers of Nin/Rdm, but I haven't dinged into all my haste gear yet (still 61, with the full 20~21% *loq* waiting at 75), but I'll have to bite the bullet and level Drk to 37 soon enough.

[Dooom]

Nin tanks great, always did, cue the Ruke/Richardd signals, Pld/Nin is just super buff.

This. I levelled pld after doing a few months of tanking as nin/drk (nothing too major, my LS isn't that hardcore), and compared to the work I put in on ninja, setting myself up as a pld/nin to tank was just stupidly easy. Tbh, the reason I levelled pld was so I could get a super-easy MDB set for things like Proto Ultima, where my ninja was struggling a bit more (hai2u Citadel Buster). I still prefer nin/drk for most fights though, if you're tanking something you can stun reliably every time re-cast is up then it's just such fun. It does require a bit more support than pld though, and being reliant on others in an "oh shit" moment sucks a bit.

never used nin/rdm for tanking though, so can't really make a fair comparison.

edit - also, I think people who want to tank at endgame will just level pld; I know very few people who have nin at 75 and *want* to be an endgame tank with it, it's more for stuff like solo or whatever that they level it. Few ninjas tanking endgame + pld buffs = perception among people that ninja can't tank, I guess.

[Devdas]

I personally have tanked using Nin/drk and Nin/rdm (depending on the mob of course) and find they are both amazing. I have been able to easily keep up with Paladin's in terms of hate and in many cases survivability but the difference is really armor. Ninja NEEDS to blink there is almost no way to avoid it and you need the enmity/defense/haste/MDB armor sets to improve survivability. Of course paladin has more survivability JAs but that doesn't mean a ninja should have that much trouble depending on the Subjob.

/drk - Best for mobs where you need to get hate fast. Sky gods are the first thing that come to mind since most DD just start going crazy on them on pop. This is the sub I prefer if I don't have a co-tank that I feel can keep hate or survive as well OR if the other tank is just so amazing that I need stun/Souleater/LR to keep up with hate.

/rdm - I haven't tanked /rdm as much but the few times I have I absolutely love it, but I personally find you need another tank that is extremely reliable to make this work since you can't stun to make mobs stop attacking you to recast shadows. This is great for mobs like JoL and Ultima and probably even Omega but I usually do /drk on Omega cause its nice to be able to stun an annoying Collossal Blow.

In the end it depends on what you feel most comfortable as and the mob itself. Fast Cast, Stoneskin, and MBD of RDM is extremely helpful and not a subjob to laugh at.

Now for your questions
1. /drk for anything stunable 95% of the time I'd be /drk

2. Both are pretty amazing hate-wise but like I said depends on the mob...
faster hate =/drk
More Reliable hate/survivablity = /rdm

3. Yes there is no doubt that a good ninja can keep up but the difference is a mediocre ninja will have trouble while a mediocre paladin can still tank successfully. Like Max said look at Rukenshin and Richardd to see a Ninja's true potential.

4. Bard and Red Mage are a must. White mage is nice but not necessary imo. Phalanx II when merited = godsend

[stewie]

Tedit - also, I think people who want to tank at endgame will just level pld; I know very few people who have nin at 75 and *want* to be an endgame tank with it, it's more for stuff like solo or whatever that they level it. Few ninjas tanking endgame + pld buffs = perception among people that ninja can't tank, I guess.

I want to, someone let me.

On topic, I prefer /DRK for everything stunnable, /RDM otherwise.

[Meko]

While I love my ninja, at the end of the day, they are just not as good as PLD tanks. Especially not since auto-refresh and shield mastery came into play. That coupled with Homam gear and NIN are out.

[Amastacia]

edit - also, I think people who want to tank at endgame will just level pld; I know very few people who have nin at 75 and *want* to be an endgame tank with it, it's more for stuff like solo or whatever that they level it. Few ninjas tanking endgame + pld buffs = perception among people that ninja can't tank, I guess.

I'd agree... for the last couple years.

Anyone who leveled NIN "back in the day" before PLD updates leveled it to tank.

And in a lot of cases, we didn't necessarily retire ourselves from tanking, we got retired by our LSs.

When I joined SML, there was a period of about 6 months or so where I was NIN about 90% of the time, tanked everything (in fact, Wafik thought NIN/DRK was ass until I proved to him how well it worked). Then combination of PLD buffs and couple of people in the LS actually getting PLD geared meant I just started being asked to come RDM more and more often, until I decided to level SAM and put the NIN gear rotting in my MH to use.

There was never any problem with my ability to tank... it's just that life was easier and people could afford to be lazier. Why use a perfectly good NIN tank when there are perfectly good PLD tanks that require less attention?

We were always big on doing things as efficiently as possible with what we had, and with PLDs just as able to tank reliably plus a seemingly endless shortage of quality mages, my ass went to the back line and stayed there (at least until the convenient coincidence of us getting a couple good RDMs right when my SAM hit 75).

I've got a lot of respect for the folks who went on tanking after PLD claimed the throne, and who could make their LSs listen to them that NIN wasn't dead. Wafik was always looking for the past of least resistance (and I can hardly fault him), and at the end of the day the simple fact remains that the same amount of effort invested into PLD as is required to play NIN well results in a very effective, low-maintenance tank.

Edit: I'm actually tanking again for the LS I joined after LM-17 day shattered SML, and it's as much fun as it ever was. I'm not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth, since I don't think there's anything in FFXI more fun than tanking on NIN, but I have a feeling it won't last forever (and I'm too much of a team player to throw tantrums if I don't get to come tank everything on NIN...maybe I should be?).