How the Health Crisis was solved 80 years ago.

[Kuya]

He's not defending the current system though.

[Jeryhn]

Spoiler: show

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strol...riage-cake.jpg

Oh wait, only when it concerns your taxes.

Forgot.

The punchline is that is still does concern taxes!

[guartz]

And why else would YOU be arguing against changes to the system that would drive costs DOWN through increased competition and actually keeping people healthy, instead of dumping them off policies they have paid thousands of dollars for or literally dumping them in the slums instead of treating them?

No, no. It's not bringing costs down via competition, but via subsidy. Because they are not bringing more doctors on board, they are adding a government subsidized insurance. Let me give you a recent example, you know that cash for clunkers program? $4500 for any car that runs under 18mpg? I ran around my town, asking prices, and what I noticed was that dealers weren't taking any discounts off sticker prices if you run that program, were as before, they did. Yes, my cost as the consumer decreased, but the prices became less competitive. That's just smart business decision on their part, because the demand for cars jumped up and people are willing to pay sticker prices since they have 4500 subsidy.

Now with this government insurance, you are gonna increase the amount of demand on medical care, without increasing the supply, therefore prices are gonna rise, if not immediately, but sure as a sunrise, they will rise.

[Olo401]

*facepalm*

No, because if people actually have coverage and use it regularly, the demand for emergency care WILL GO DOWN and so will the costs.

Right now you have people not getting regular doctor visits because they don't have and can't afford to get insurance, or because they can't afford to pay a deductible, or because their insurance carrier refuses to pay for necessary care that kills their bottom line. They end up going to an emergency room instead of a regular doctor, get charged five times the cost for care, and because they can't pay for it themselves and the insurance companies won't pay for it either, that makes hospitals increase the costs to everyone astronomically. Take away that strain, that need to raise end costs across the board, and everyone's prices go DOWN.

And at the same time, people also end up dying unnecessarily. If everyone has insurance coverage, even if it just covers regular care, and people will use it to find problems early and take care of them, which stops putting extra burden on emergency care and keeps people alive.

[guartz]

*facepalm*

No, because if people actually have coverage and use it regularly, the demand for emergency care WILL GO DOWN and so will the costs.

Right now you have people not getting regular doctor visits because they don't have and can't afford to get insurance, or because they can't afford to pay a deductible, or because their insurance carrier refuses to pay for necessary care that kills their bottom line. They end up going to an emergency room instead of a regular doctor, get charged five times the cost for care, and because they can't pay for it themselves and the insurance companies won't pay for it either, that makes hospitals increase the costs to everyone astronomically. Take away that strain, that need to raise end costs across the board, and everyone's prices go DOWN.

And at the same time, people also end up dying unnecessarily. If everyone has insurance coverage, even if it just covers regular care, and people will use it to find problems early and take care of them, which stops putting extra burden on emergency care and keeps people alive.

Need I remind you;
Most people occupying emergency rooms are elderly who can't find a medicare doctors who isn't booked for the next 20 years, and young people with medicaid who can't find a doctor period.

Furthermore, government insurance isn't going to be free for everyone. That means you will still have people who wait until they are sick to look for help.

[Olo401]

Need I remind you;
Most people occupying emergency rooms are elderly who can't find a medicare doctors who isn't booked for the next 20 years, and young people with medicaid who can't find a doctor period.

First off, back up your claim with some facts.

Second, good luck finding any because you're full of shit - I have several family members who work in health care and I'm quite aware of the fact that the people who most frequently visit the emergency room are poor parents who don't have and can't afford medical insurance to cover their young children, much less themselves. Thankfully for some families with young kids SCHIP at least covers their insurance, no thanks to Bush and his veto.

[Beckwin]

guartz this topic is bad and you should feel bad. you offer no factual sources and rely solely on utopian(distopian rly) capitalist rhetoric. also the AMA was not quick to get on the boat for the obama plan... I think they only decided to come out in support of it recently because it seems inevitable; if you look back to 93 onward you can find reports from the AMA being critical of any government option.

I can agree with many of your sentiments about the decentralization of society, but frankly when it comes to people who crack open your skull and repair blood vessels in your brain, I do want something of an authoritative standard. the community livestock vet or paramedic can only do so much before things get out of their league, even if they can do a lot of good administering low-level care (which, in the case of paramedics, nurses, and assisting staff, they already do, in spite of your silly comments about needing a PhD and AMA membership to stick a thermometer in someone's ass).

[oldoldman]

I'm honestly not for or against the Health Care reform, with a democratic congress and president I'm sure it's inevitable regardless. What I am against is the bullying that's going on in congress over trying to push bills through as fast as possible without proper review. And yes, I was against it when the republicans did it too.

[Talus]

The ED is turning into primary care. A lot of non-emergent cases go to the ED because they don't have a PCP (primary care physician). They get a lot of frequent fliers - people that just want a note for work, people who are drug-seekers (usually pain killers but also some other stuff), more so than people with penetrating chest trauma (what most people would consider a true emergency), unless it's a Level 1 trauma center.

Most elderly people have medicare and end up on medical floors/ICU/CCU floors. And they just don't die. Young people die. Old people plug and chug away. I don't have the cite handy but about 30% of healthcare expenditures could be categorized as futile care, which are interventions on behalf of the really sick and/or really old patients that ultimately do not make a difference in their quality and longevity of life. That's just one way that the cost of healthcare could be trimmed - cutting back on the futile care interventions on those too sick or too old for it to make a damn difference.

I'm not saying put them out to pasture - the problem with overgeneralizing and trying to fit square human pegs into the holes of policy is that it needs to be done on a case by case basis.

[Olo401]

Very well said Talus, and no doubt with a cooler head than any of us here have had in a while on this topic.

[hagun]

I just had to pay 100 dollars to sit in an emergency room for a flu check up. It was like two hours of sitting down in between five minutes of check ups here and there in the ER. The thing is most people have it worse than I do and have to spend a ton more out of pocket. I feel sad for them. Each pay check I get, I pay my insurance company. When I am sick with body aches, runny nose, chills, sore throat, fever, coughs, and generally feeling shitty I have to pay out of my pocket to be treated.

I am not saying I know everything about our medical system, but I can say for sure that this shit is stupidly unfair. On top of it all, I am losing a day's wages due to getting sent home. Just fucking lovely. Then people bitch and moan at the idea of socialism not once seeing how hard it is for the unfortunate folks. Oh well, it's a jungle out here with concrete. It's nice to talk about hypothetical BS when reality can't even compare. /rant

[guartz]

First off, back up your claim with some facts.

Second, good luck finding any because you're full of shit - I have several family members who work in health care and I'm quite aware of the fact that the people who most frequently visit the emergency room are poor parents who don't have and can't afford medical insurance to cover their young children, much less themselves. Thankfully for some families with young kids SCHIP at least covers their insurance, no thanks to Bush and his veto.

Well, if a poor parent doesn't have have insurance offered by an employer, they are usually working part-time shitty jobs, which probably means income under 20k, which means medicare. So I'm not sure what you are getting at, it seems like you only support my idea that the poor with medicaid or eligible for medicaid still go to ER.

What you should be saying is that people who loose their jobs, and have an illness that is not qualified as a disability, can't afford $800 - $1200 cobra monthly premiums. Now these people will definitely benefit from government insurance.

Everyone else, is either lazy or uninformed.

[Sirrus_Asura]

How does BG General feel about state run healthcare (instead of federal)?
If you don't like how your state does healthcare, move.

But as it stands, federal nation-wide-esk healthcare isn't really a public option. (Unless they've revised it lol) *Everyone* is being forced into dealing with it, and that really is an invasion of our rights.

[Kyreth]

Where's the health care problem? At the bottom, where it'll always be. Basic care isn't as profitable as finding the next cancer treatment or heart transplant technique.

Fund basic, preventative healthcare facilites with those government dollars. The shit that people walk into ER's by the dozens to get. Checkups. Sprains and cuts. Someone to make sure the kid with the 100 F temperature gets checked and watched over if they can be sent home with minor medications. Folks that can feed the serious cases up the line to a hospital or clinic. Vaccinations. A doctor that can check and see if your kid's got chicken pox or the weeping bubonic plague and deal with/refer accordingly. Tack em right onto those hospitals if need be.

In other words, the establishmental version of triage. Instead of sticking new doctors into hospital ER's for massive sleep deprivation and rough-rider training, build a solid base to the medical profession and work them up from there. Heck, maybe the savings in operating an overwhelmed ER can be used to help run a more effective system. I dunno.

[guartz]

guartz this topic is bad and you should feel bad. you offer no factual sources and rely solely on utopian(distopian rly) capitalist rhetoric. also the AMA was not quick to get on the boat for the obama plan... I think they only decided to come out in support of it recently because it seems inevitable; if you look back to 93 onward you can find reports from the AMA being critical of any government option.

I can agree with many of your sentiments about the decentralization of society, but frankly when it comes to people who crack open your skull and repair blood vessels in your brain, I do want something of an authoritative standard. the community livestock vet or paramedic can only do so much before things get out of their league, even if they can do a lot of good administering low-level care (which, in the case of paramedics, nurses, and assisting staff, they already do, in spite of your silly comments about needing a PhD and AMA membership to stick a thermometer in someone's ass).

I actually don't feel bad because I'm only suggesting how healthcare problems came about in America. So far I've only been met with politically biased responses. It's not my political opinion that AMA organized a cartel to stagnate the supply of physicians, it's a fact. It's not my biased view that state and federal regulations of the past set the theme of price increases, it's a fact.

This healthcare reform act will help people, yes, but it's not worthy of praise it's getting. Not gonna fix anything in the long run. It's business as usual for the cartels and billionaire ceos, you are just cost shifting from employers to taxpayers, and adding on a few uninsured, sick and unmeasurables to sweeten the deal.

[Khamsin]

How does BG General feel about state run healthcare (instead of federal)?
If you don't like how your state does healthcare, move.

But as it stands, federal nation-wide-esk healthcare isn't really a public option. (Unless they've revised it lol) *Everyone* is being forced into dealing with it, and that really is an invasion of our rights.

Just like everyone is forced into dealing with roads, schools, fire departments and police stations?

As for the state idea, I like it. It could be a good way to coax poor and homeless people out of the state, if done right. Or attract them even more, if done wrong. Perhaps make the state healthcare cost you for services up front, but is tax deductable dollar for dollar on your next return so you get it all back. Or make it available only to people who paid at least $X in taxes the previous year and aren't already covered by their company.

[Sirrus_Asura]

Just like everyone is forced into dealing with roads, schools, fire departments and police stations?

As for the state idea, I like it. It could be a good way to coax poor and homeless people out of the state, if done right. Or attract them even more, if done wrong. Perhaps make the state healthcare cost you for services up front, but is tax deductable dollar for dollar on your next return so you get it all back. Or make it available only to people who paid at least $X in taxes the previous year and aren't already covered by their company.

Don't really see a problem with this. States should have the right to do so.

It just seems like a better idea to me in general. Why blanket this crap over people? That's not freedom.

What gets me though is that people think that government will make healthcare more efficient than the current system. People act like government is going to be held accountable if things don't work. Its laughable at best. They're hardly held accountable now.

Government is already swayed by lobbyist and special interests in making our laws in deciding what we have the freedom to do and don't(Hemp, pot etc). What makes you think healthcare is going to be any different? Do you think healthcare will be above this bullshit? Good fucking luck.

Why have that kind of corruption forced into your life and possibly have control over weither you live or die? At least under the free market you'd have somewhat of a choice over who's fucking you over and how hard.(Even though I agree, the system sucks now on so many levels)

If government was actually doing its job and not swayed by bullcrap, I'd be much more supportive of a Federal Healthcare plan. But as it stands, the people backing this bill are putting their trust in the government not to fuck this up. That kind of trust requires a bigger leap of faith than believing in god.

[Ryany]

I like my Health Savings Account.

Things like those will at least give people more of a reason to tell pharmaceutical companies to fuck off when they set the price too high and the money has to come from the consumer's account. It seems like most people under some universal insurance would say, "That's bullshit!" with Restasis Eye Drops running at $255 for a month supply (which is 48 milliliters), but still follow through with filling it if it wasn't coming directly out of their pocket.

[Khamsin]

OH GOD, THAT GUY WHO TOOK MY TEMPERATURE DIDN'T HAVE A LICENSE!!!!11!! ZOMG

FREE HAIRCUT* WHEN YOU BUY A KIDNEY TRANSPLANT AT MENU PRICE!!!

*buzz cut only

BUY ONE ORCHIECTOMY, GET THE SECOND 50% OFF WITH PURCHASE OF FULL BODY WAX!!!

[guartz]

FREE HAIRCUT* WHEN YOU BUY A KIDNEY TRANSPLANT AT MENU PRICE!!!

*buzz cut only

BUY ONE ORCHIECTOMY, GET THE SECOND 50% OFF WITH PURCHASE OF FULL BODY WAX!!!

I'll give you that it's funny, but during those times there were no kidney transplants.