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  1. #41

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovex View Post
    Who cares about datswapng? And welcome to 2002 on botting.

    All these RMTs making scamming schemes, trying to steal accounts.

    Hacking accounts, pretending to be GMs etc, RMTs are just fags.

    I hate RMT but that's just me. I've seen way too many ppl get fucked over by them.

    Fuck RMT.
    I think you are very misinformed. The people stealing accounts and scamming are chinese gil farmers. The people who posted this warning are part of a community that buys and sells accounts for players. Its "usually" the original owner or current owner of the account doing the selling, not someone who stole an account.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkster View Post
    RMTing will eventually become common practice. Most people have spent the past 4+ years on this game and would want to see some sort of return from it.
    Couldn't agree more, shit i sold my account, why shouldn't i cash in if people are stupid enough to pay me a stupid amount for a virtual character, my gain, their loss.

  3. #43
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    In my book, RMT = Botters = Other hacks people. No need to defend yourself just because you do it. I'm not going to launch a crusade against you (At least not for this purpose), so don't get frantic. The fact is however, people that bot ruin and use programs can and do ruin the game to the extent that RMT players do (Note I'm talking about the players not the Chinese). For example, using Dats makes some ENMs/Assaults/Activities soloable. This means people without this capability have less players to choose from when seeking support for said activities. The added rewards from these solos declines the value of items (By making them more readily available), which really does screw over the people who have to do said activities in a group (Groups means you'll be sharing the gil, and the gil value is reduced due to higher supply since more solos are capable). I'm sure some of you are thinking "Oh but does that mean doing events with a PT as opposed to an alliance because we're better geared/skilled is bad too?!". To you I remind you that the advantage you have is not legal by ToS standards and is not available through normal game play. Botters also take part in this advantage since their ability to claim (Or claim more easily) allows for more items to be sold.

    In short, RMT = Botters = Windows programs. In reality, they each provide an illegal advantage to one player over another. The only difference is the general impact of each and the types of benefits each provide. Stop bitching about one if you engage in another.

  4. #44

    I think you're all missing the point, allow me to assist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silenka
    I'm a girl =/
    Pics?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post

    In short, RMT = Botters = Windows programs.
    LOL, your an idiot.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badkarma View Post
    LOL, your an idiot.
    You're an idiot.

  7. #47
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    In short, RMT = Botters = Windows programs. In reality, they each provide an illegal advantage to one player over another. The only difference is the general impact of each and the types of benefits each provide. Stop bitching about one if you engage in another.
    Not this shit again.... you really want to equate RMT to using 3rd PT Windower? Or perhaps you are referring to more "shady" windows programs.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronin sparthos View Post
    Not this shit again.... you really want to equate RMT to using 3rd PT Windower? Or perhaps you are referring to more "shady" windows programs.
    These and the ones that simply grant an advantage. Really, that's the only point I made: RMT is nothing more than an illegal (By ToS Standards) advantage one player enjoys over another. Botting is an illegal advantage one player enjoys over another. Many of these wacky Windows programs are an illegal advantage one player enjoys over another. Like I said, I won't go out killing Windower people (Yet), but it's foolish to think yourself some honorable person when you yourself engage in activities against the ToS (Not specifically you; I'm using that in a general sense).

  9. #49
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    No one has ever said windower isn't against TOS, but you can still have different scales of morals depending on the rule broken.

    For example, I speed a lot, I feel I have a higher moral standard than someone who say, rapes kids. We both broke the law, but mine wasn't quite as serious.

    RMT (mostly gil buying/selling imo) fucked up our economy, people bought so much gil, SE, and botting is obvious.

    Windower apps that tell me my spell is ready to cast, well, I'm going 5 miles over on that one.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    In short, RMT = Botters = Windows programs. In reality, they each provide an illegal advantage to one player over another. The only difference is the general impact of each and the types of benefits each provide. Stop bitching about one if you engage in another.
    I already took notice of that point. In the end, most people are only willing to condemn that which is unavailable (Or impractical) for them. RMTs ruin the game for some people. Botters ruin the game for some people. Windowers using certain programs ruin the game for some people.

    I was merely responding to this guy who seemed adamant that RMT are scum because they ruin the game. At the same time, he cannot bring himself to complain about those who ruin the game for others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovex View Post
    Although this guy is a huge douche and deserves whatever is thrown at him... The OP is a RMT.

    RMT are scum. Get the fuck out.

    All you RMTs are shady ass bitches.

    You ruin the game and scam people and I'm one of those people who just doesn't give a shit, if you're a RMT, as far as I'm concerned you are scum and need to get a job.

    Hopefully you will get banned soon. You and the Moron.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Furthermore, I never said people didn't acknowledge Windowers to be against the ToS. I was merely pointing out the grounds upon which you can compare RMT to Windower Programs and Botting (That is, they violate the ToS). I even stated multiple times that I'm not here to condemn people for using Windower (Not at this time), but simply point out that just as RMT ruins the game for some people, so does botting and Windower programs. Thus, it wouldn't be surprising (As someone mentioned earlier) if RMT became the norm. However, I would also doubt it to be the case since fiscal advantages stir stronger emotions than technical/free advantages.

  11. #51
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    To say that the windower is on the same level as botting or especially RMT is moronic. Everything against the ToS has implications that you can probably get banned for but RMT is something that is borderline illegal. It is very much akin to say taking your personal copy of a movie and charging money for people to see it. If the people making the windower were charging money for it I think it'd be a much different story.

    That said though there hasn't really been much recourse against RMT companies. Either the laws just aren't quite set up right or it may be more so where most of these companies are based out of. There has been the case where the makers of Glider (WoW bot program) were sued and Blizzard won but I think that was something to do with Glider actually using code from WoW and selling it.

    No matter which way you look at it though if you're involved with these things you should know there's an inherent risk in what you're doing. I'm not really sure how the police would respond to this but even if someone tries to sell you something illegal like stolen goods then if the person takes your money they're still stealing from you. Personally I think people shouldn't be surprised when crap like this happens because you're in a business very similar to selling stolen goods.

    Morality is a bit silly to bring up in regard to this. Morality is dictated by personal belief and conscience whether something is immoral is completely based on the view of the individual though there is a norm usually dictated by the person's society. Personally I belief there are certain things that most humans can tell are morally reprehensible but whether that's due to ingrained religious beliefs, laws, or just some instinct to survive is debatable. The main important factor is what is illegal. Cheating at a videogame doesn't fall anywhere close to being illegal to say using the windower is illegal is like saying a Gameshark/Gamegenie could be illegal. RMT is somewhat gray because you're literally making money off someone's intellectual property without their permission.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by orson View Post
    To say that the windower is on the same level as botting or especially RMT is moronic. Everything against the ToS has implications that you can probably get banned for but RMT is something that is borderline illegal. It is very much akin to say taking your personal copy of a movie and charging money for people to see it.

    That said though there hasn't really been much recourse against RMT companies. Either the laws just aren't quite set up right or it may be more so where most of these companies are based out of. There has been the case where the makers of Glider (WoW bot program) were sued and Blizzard won but I think that was something to do with Glider actually using code from WoW and selling it.

    No matter which way you look at it though if you're involved with these things you should know there's an inherent risk in what you're doing. I'm not really sure how the police would respond to this but even if someone tries to sell you something illegal like stolen goods then if the person takes your money they're still stealing from you. Personally I think people shouldn't be surprised when crap like this happens because you're in a business very similar to selling stolen goods.
    I hope that first response wasn't directed to me since I specifically stated that they're equal only under certain conditions. Much like how a Red,Blue, and Yellow can all be categorized as colors. RMT, Botting, and Windower can be categorized as illegal advantages that ruin the game for certain individuals.

    That said, the difference between Windower allowing people to introduce more Haguns into the market *because* they can solo (Otherwise risky and unlikely to happen without programs) and someone who restores an account with only a Hagun on it (Which is then sold) is simply the character returning for use. I've mentioned this before, and you probably missed it while rushing to fight off someone crazy enough to suggest that Windower breaks the ToS and grants an advantage (Something only the ignorant would deny), but I've already accounted for the fact that they have different levels of impact. There really is no point to make against me.

    1. Windower, RMT, and Botting break the ToS
    2. Windower programs, RMT, and Botting grant an advantage over players without them
    3. These advantages can ruin the game for some individuals

    Nothing about these is condemning you (Or is it possible that you feel guilty?) or telling you to stop. It's simply pointing out the facts.

    Edit: As for the second part, it depends on whether the law recognizes the purchase of RMTed goods illegal. If so, it's quite possible for there to not be a penalty since there is a law (Cannot remember the name at the moment) that states criminals cannot persecute others for happenings that occur while they are breaking the law.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    You're an idiot.
    http://marcvz.net/blog/wp-content/up...ammar-nazi.jpg


    Etc, etc.

  14. #54
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    [Picture of Butthurt Report form]

    Blah Blah Blah. Not even worth looking for.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    I hope that first response wasn't directed to me since I specifically stated that they're equal only under certain conditions. Much like how a Red,Blue, and Yellow can all be categorized as colors. RMT, Botting, and Windower can be categorized as illegal advantages that ruin the game for certain individuals.

    That said, the difference between Windower allowing people to introduce more Haguns into the market *because* they can solo (Otherwise risky and unlikely to happen without programs) and someone who restores an account with only a Hagun on it (Which is then sold) is simply the character returning for use. I've mentioned this before, and you probably missed it while rushing to fight off someone crazy enough to suggest that Windower breaks the ToS and grants an advantage (Something only the ignorant would deny), but I've already accounted for the fact that they have different levels of impact. There really is no point to make against me.

    1. Windower, RMT, and Botting break the ToS
    2. Windower programs, RMT, and Botting grant an advantage over players without them
    3. These advantages can ruin the game for some individuals

    Nothing about these is condemning you (Or is it possible that you feel guilty?) or telling you to stop. It's simply pointing out the facts.

    Edit: As for the second part, it depends on whether the law recognizes the purchase of RMTed goods illegal. If so, it's quite possible for there to not be a penalty since there is a law (Cannot remember the name at the moment) that states criminals cannot persecute others for happenings that occur while they are breaking the law.
    No my statement was more a generalization. I agree cheating is cheating and technically in that sense doing anything against the ToS is something that the person should be aware that they could be punished for. The point I was trying to make was more so to people saying "why should RMT be any worse than the windower."

    I'm not sure about your example I could do everything except parse on my PS2 that I do now it'd just mean a difference of hitting 2-3 macros vs 1. If you mean that the ENM, sheep in antlion's clothing, where you could see the mobs under the ground via wire frame fillmode you're wrong that doesn't work any more (did it ever?) Either way though people on 360/PS2 can easily solo the Hagun ENM it's nothing to do with the windower.

    The windower doesn't really affect anyone's gameplay outside of their own. The best it can do is make the UI and controls smoother and faster which has a minor affect on overall performance if you're a proficient player anyways. I have yet seen anyone bring up a decent point as to why the windower is something that provides a really unfair advantage. I too thought back when I only played on PS2 that from the way certain people talked about the windower that it was broken and crazy. Then I actually started using it and saw that it isn't as much a performance enhancer as a tool to simplify retarded things in the game like gear swapping. What provides just as big of an advantage is using a keyboard and mouse over a controller.

  16. #56
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    lol, this shit again

    morality is subjective. if you don't agree with someone on what's right and wrong, good for you. they probably don't care, no matter how long your essay on the subject is.

    as for rmt ripping off rmt, good. do what you want with your money, but get used to people laughing at you when you get screwed over.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovex View Post
    Who cares about datswapng? And welcome to 2002 on botting.

    All these RMTs making scamming schemes, trying to steal accounts.

    Hacking accounts, pretending to be GMs etc, RMTs are just fags.

    I hate RMT but that's just me. I've seen way too many ppl get fucked over by them.

    Fuck RMT.
    Bitching about RMT is so 2004.

    I also want Yugl's thesis on dat swapping my Noble's Tunic to be a Manteel, because tunics are fucking ugly. My advantage: I look sexier than the rest of you fools.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by orson View Post
    No my statement was more a generalization. I agree cheating is cheating and technically in that sense doing anything against the ToS is something that the person should be aware that they could be punished for. The point I was trying to make was more so to people saying "why should RMT be any worse than the windower."
    Well you see that's the entire problem here. I intentionally brought up this point because it's clear that there is this "Botting is the norm!" and "Windower is fine!" notion going around, yet, these same people bash RMT. Who has the right to say which is worse than the other? Who has the right to declare one more wrong than the other? To be honest, the only non-partisan stance is just to suggest they're the same because they violate the ToS and grant an unfair advantage. The only reason people tend to bash one more than the other is because they either take part in one of these already or because they view it as having less impact on them. And really, that last point has more significance than most realize. People are unwilling to think themselves doing wrong, and always seek to justify their stance. This was very apparent in the Salvage bannings. In fact, it's quite common for people who once bashed Windows to suddenly act as if they've been enlightening by a revelation once they too have installed Windows:

    "I too once believed Windower was evil, but now I see the light. I now hath installed windower; praise be thy program Spellcaster! And it was good."

    I'm not sure about your example I could do everything except parse on my PS2 that I do now it'd just mean a difference of hitting 2-3 macros vs 1. If you mean that the ENM, sheep in antlion's clothing, where you could see the mobs under the ground via wire frame fillmode you're wrong that doesn't work any more (did it ever?) Either way though people on 360/PS2 can easily solo the Hagun ENM it's nothing to do with the windower.


    The windower doesn't really affect anyone's gameplay outside of their own. The best it can do is make the UI and controls smoother and faster which has a minor affect on overall performance if you're a proficient player anyways. I have yet seen anyone bring up a decent point as to why the windower is something that provides a really unfair advantage. I too thought back when I only played on PS2 that from the way certain people talked about the windower that it was broken and crazy. Then I actually started using it and saw that it isn't as much a performance enhancer as a tool to simplify retarded things in the game like gear swapping. What provides just as big of an advantage is using a keyboard and mouse over a controller.
    It works still. You don't use fillmode though (AP Radar). The difference between PS2 Macros and Spellcast is incredible. PC Players have the potential to maximize characters with each cast and use distance programs for solos (I've talked with Kaeko, and even he agrees that some solos would be obscenely difficult without distance programs). These minuscule adjustments provide the capacity to do events with *less* than needed. These minuscule adjustments also create new demands for items that could not be utilized to full potential without windower. For example, my SCH is completely incapable of utilizing a fully decked standing set or curing set. For this reason, I do not purchase certain items that I would have otherwise.

    Now what is the effect of these two events? The first creates an artificially higher supply by increasing the frequency in which certain events take place. Before I explain that however, I would like to point out that while you *can* solo the Hagun ENM on PS2, it's *heavily* luck dependent (At least on DRG). Even when geared for max killing (Which is very dangerous in this setting), you'll run out of time if you find two-three pets.

    Having cleared that up, lets look at this example once again. Lets say I have 10 players (Artificial ENM base). Seven are on PC and three are on PS2. With windower, those seven people (Provided they have the proper class leveled) can solo the Hagun ENM. The three PS2 players can only reliably kill it using 2-3 members. That means in total, you're looking at about eight chances for a Hagun to enter the market. If there were no AP Radar or whatever programs people prefer to use, there would be at most five chances at Hagun. Now note that this is a very small sample, so when you put it in real time example, the difference between a Non-AP Radar world and a AP-Radar world is grand. This is actually being very lenient since a duo is usually done by RDMs only, so we're assuming that the duos each consist of RDM 2x (As opposed to the solos, which there are *many* classes that can solo it). This is just one example in which Windower provides heightened buying power towards PC users.

    You might ask yourself, "So what if more Haguns are in the AH?". Well for one, it artificially increases the supply of Haguns. Two, players incapable of soloing because they lack Windower benefit less from the ENM because the increased supply means reduced sales price, and since that's shared between two to three players, they obtain 33-50% of the buying power that a PC player obtains.

    The second point I made has the opposite effect in which there is an artificial demand increase for items people would otherwise not use. This is mostly a problem for cross-class items where one class that would typically not use an item suddenly does because they has the macro space to do so on Windower. The greater implication is how these minor gear adjustments impact your FFXI career. Winning a solo event and posting it provides you with social credit that goes ways into determining whether you get invited for a PT/LS/Or any event. It's just a grand fact that the max potential of a PC character is greater than that of a PS2 player, which inherently affects social capital.

    Could probably have made this response better, but I cannot bother at this point. If there's further disagreement, please refer to the three points I posted earlier and counter them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drex View Post
    morality is subjective. if you don't agree with someone on what's right and wrong, good for you. they probably don't care, no matter how long your essay on the subject is.
    Exactly the reason I said I'm not starting a crusade. I was merely pointing out that just as how he thinks RMT are scum, there are individuals who recognize botters/windower players are scum and that it's pointless trying to flame them.

    @Kata: I'm talking about changing mobs not equipment.

  19. #59
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    I am sorry for all the people arguing over RMT. That was not my intention at all, but I was wondering if maybe we could steer this thread in the right direction. If anyone has any information on Jacob or has been scammed by him please dont hesitate to contact me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikozu View Post
    I am sorry for all the people arguing over RMT. That was not my intention at all, but I was wondering if maybe we could steer this thread in the right direction. If anyone has any information on Jacob or has been scammed by him please dont hesitate to contact me.
    What more could you possibly need about him? His favorite color?

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