Goodbye present - how to kill AV (before it's patched)

[Kaeko]

I still don't see how this is a fucking secret. It was discussed on these forums, I know I went out and tested it as well because I think at the time Kaeko didn't have any MV merits.

This is an old topic that really shouldn't surprise people with deep knowledge of the game or just knew a lot about SCH.

The problem is when publicity reaches critical mass (basically a BG thread + a shock video), it reaches SE, and that's how it gets fixed. Some random mentioning of an idea doesn't draw attention - a 1 shot kill video with its own BG title does.

A lot of groups spent a lot of effort on this and trying to both network this information to various groups, but while keeping it from reaching general public in big BG posts. That's just the nature of things when you work with something that deserves a patch.

EDIT:

Basically, there is a difference to most people between half-jokingly saying "18 SCH VS AV LOL" and going into the math, with proof, that it works on AV. Most people won't make that leap in judgment, and as long as someone else doesn't do the mental work for them and post a video, the information is unlikely to reach a point where SE nerfs or knows about it.

[FailureMidgard]

It's a fucking secret because only around 20 people across all servers knew that it was mathematically possible to take down AV in this fashion. Hell, only our group actually got the timing down accurately enough to manage it realistically because we used OnEvent.

I know at least 25 people on Midgard knew it was possible. I mean, props to people that were actually trying...but I really don't think it was anywhere near the secret you made it out to be. It was posted on BG, btw...

[drwaffles]

Honestly I'd given up on ever pulling it off seeing as a couple of our primary members (who also had access to a SCH mule) had essentially quit, but I think it's just shitty of Seedz to go and ruin this for any future attempts we might have made and for Kaeko's group who were actually capable of pulling it off. He didn't care about it at all - myself and a couple of my friends were the only ones who apparently wanted to make progress in our group, so all I can conclude is that he posted this purely in order to get attention.

[drwaffles]

I know at least 25 people on Midgard knew it was possible. I mean, props to people that were actually trying...but I really don't think it was anywhere near the secret you made it out to be. It was posted on BG, btw...

I know the fucking maths of it was posted here, I'm not an idiot. But the fact that it could be feasibly used like this was NOT common knowledge by any extent of the imagination.

[Nightfyre]

The only reason this even approximated a secret was because of lack of interest in SCH and lack of knowledge about the specific mechanics of Modus Veritas. Anybody with an understanding of these two things and a creative mind wondered about this at some point or another, the only reason this didn't hit critical mass ages ago is because people are lazy and how many people have a reasonably well geared SCH with full MV merits, much less know enough well geared and merited SCHs who could actually corrdinate something like this?

[Cairthenn]

The only reason this even approximated a secret was because of lack of interest in SCH and lack of knowledge about the specific mechanics of Modus Veritas. Anybody with an understanding of these two things and a creative mind wondered about this at some point or another, the only reason this didn't hit critical mass ages ago is because people are lazy and how many people have a reasonably well geared SCH with full MV merits, much less know enough well geared and merited SCHs who could actually corrdinate something like this?

This is pretty much the only reason a lot of "secrets" go unnoticed so is it really surprising?

[Trigun]

Kaeko is to pwning game as Taj is to pwning s-e

All praise be to the livejournal.

[Clerix]

This idea was posted on KI somewhere.

Not necessarily talking about AV, but talking about other mobs in general. Stacking SCH's for Modus Veritas. Nothing to the extent of 9+ scholars stacking, but like 3-4 scholars stacking.

I did a few Kirins in my old sky ls with 4 SCHs and one of them had the idea of doing all modus veritas. We didn't notice much at the time because they didn't land a good dmg helix. (something like 50dmg was the highest?)

[drwaffles]

The only reason this even approximated a secret was because of lack of interest in SCH and lack of knowledge about the specific mechanics of Modus Veritas. Anybody with an understanding of these two things and a creative mind wondered about this at some point or another, the only reason this didn't hit critical mass ages ago is because people are lazy and how many people have a reasonably well geared SCH with full MV merits, much less know enough well geared and merited SCHs who could actually corrdinate something like this?

Exactly, so it was still essentially a secret since no one who hadn't tested it knew it worked in a real situation. What really pisses me off is that me and Cair basically 6-box SMN burned everyone's SCHs (including fucking mules) to 75 without any direct reward, and it was all for nothing because people are useless and selfish. But that's another matter entirely. Going to leave this topic to fester further now since I'm exhausted and no one ever gives constructive input anyway.

[Nightfyre]

This is pretty much the only reason a lot of "secrets" go unnoticed so is it really surprising?

Touche.

[FailureMidgard]

Exactly, so it was still essentially a secret since no one who hadn't tested it knew it worked in a real situation. What really pisses me off is that me and Cair basically 6-box SMN burned everyone's SCHs (including fucking mules) to 75 without any direct reward, and it was all for nothing because people are useless and selfish. But that's another matter entirely. Going to leave this topic to fester further now since I'm exhausted and no one ever gives constructive input anyway.

There is no constructive input to be given. All the math was worked out 6+ months ago. This includes stacking, potential damage, the fact that AV was 1shottable (I told plenty of people this, nobody cared enough to want to do it), and how the timing on MV worked. Most of this was in the Scholar thread in the WotG section (around page 25ish, apparently I convinced Kaeko to even merit MV) as well as a few threads in newbie (remember though, newbie section wasn't advanced, so maybe people just didn't read it).

You in your post acknowledge the hardest part probably - getting all the scholars at 75 with merits (+support/buff/tanks) and organizing the kill. I'm just still baffled that people need a video for this. Makes me wonder if people need a video for all the other math that has been posted as advice in the past few years...

[Yugl]

I'm just still baffled that people need a video for this. Makes me wonder if people need a video for all the other math that has been posted as advice in the past few years...

I'm just as baffled as you. If I knew it only took a video to get people to start hyping over this (And potentially level SCH), I would have attempted to make one months back.

[Silenka]

I had a post typed out about this, but then I read back and realize Nightfyre said the same exact thing I was going to say.

[Kaeko]

There is no constructive input to be given. All the math was worked out 6+ months ago. This includes stacking, potential damage, the fact that AV was 1shottable (I told plenty of people this, nobody cared enough to want to do it), and how the timing on MV worked. Most of this was in the Scholar thread in the WotG section (around page 25ish, apparently I convinced Kaeko to even merit MV) as well as a few threads in newbie (remember though, newbie section wasn't advanced, so maybe people just didn't read it).

You in your post acknowledge the hardest part probably - getting all the scholars at 75 with merits (+support/buff/tanks) and organizing the kill. I'm just still baffled that people need a video for this. Makes me wonder if people need a video for all the other math that has been posted as advice in the past few years...

I forget who I had the debate with over Tier1 SCH merits when they came out (could have been you, please forgive me for not knowing), and someone did convince me to level MV merits over the other choices; however, it was most definitely not for this reason.

Again, I just want to point out that, yes, the average person doesn't know anything about SCH and I don't really blame them. Short of absolutely handing them proof that this works (a video), this would have gone unnoticed. The unfortunate part for those of us that actually put time into this is that's exactly what happened.

Beyond this, this is rather simple math (to some of us at least) on paper; however, to do it in practice is much more difficult than it looks. To give you an idea, we took that Hydra 9 MV video in July... and no one's kill AV with it yet. It's not as fool-proof as it looks, especially without ONEVENT. I'd say the math is the easiest part, and it's the issues in practice that make this a difficult strategy to mass-produce.

On one hand, I don't want to over-hype the difficulty of the math behind this idea - it's pretty simple to a good number of players. On the other hand, I don't agree with people who understood the math and are now acting like "I told you so!". The testing of this was one of the absolute most frustrating things I've ever done in this game and micro managing all the possible sources of error and lack of precision was a nightmare. Maybe my experience with this would have been different with a sync tool like onevent, I don't know.

I felt we were close, and that's why seeing this thread was so frustrating to me today.

[Arthars]

its not abt who is the "first NA to find this" shit

is about who can pull this off and finish AV in a split sec, and then SE fixes it

dont forget, we are beta testers after all

[Clerix]

I'm still waiting for a linkshell to even try this.

Has apathy attempted this strat? I'd be surprised if they haven't, I'm sure they have at LEAST 9 scholars in their linkshell

[Suiram]

its not abt who is the "first NA to find this" shit

is about who can pull this off and finish AV in a split sec, and then SE fixes it

dont forget, we are beta testers after all

I think that's the whole point? The fear is now that it'll get patched before anyone can actually pull this off since it'll be so hyped after this thread. The idea itself is older than dirt (by internet standards), but finally instead of speculating about it or joking about it, a few groups of people actually amassed the time and manpower to test its viability, only to potentially lose the opportunity to realize it fully, because some low-level grunt in their testing got banned for doing something stupid and decided he wanted to go out in a blaze of BG glory. Is that pretty close to what the issue is here?

[richardd]

gl to whoever attempts. i wish i was around to witness it

if you cant do anymore AV fights because of pop sets or whatever, upload some videos of other mobs being killed this way~ its very cool lol



gawd! im so envious of you guys! i wanna seeeeee

[Clerix]

I think that's the whole point? The fear is now that it'll get patched before anyone can actually pull this off since it'll be so hyped after this thread. The idea itself is older than dirt (by internet standards), but finally instead of speculating about it or joking about it, a few groups of people actually amassed the time and manpower to test its viability, only to potentially lose the opportunity to realize it fully, because some low-level grunt in their testing got banned for doing something stupid and decided he wanted to go out in a blaze of BG glory. Is that pretty close to what the issue is here?

So who's gonna be first to down AV with an alliance of SCH?

Kiarax called it.

[Arthars]

yea exactly

thats why people who wanna pull off some AV stuffs should go do this fast

we know it will get fix anyway

my shell got no 18 sch {That's too bad}

SE prolly got some email trigger on AV

whoever beats AV will trigger a mail to SE with the battle logs