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  1. #1
    Sea Torques
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    Dual-Wielding KC and Ridill(or M.kris)

    I've heard in the past that dual-wielding with a KC is not the best idea, because it will drop your delay and the extra swings will be nullified by the 8-hit per-round cap. A friend and I have been debating this back and forth for some time, so I decided to finally investigate.

    First thing I noticed that I haven't seen before is otherwiki (bottom of the page) has found via studio gobli that the KC breaks down to:

    5:15:25:25:15:10:3:2 percent chance. That's 5% for 1 swing up to 2% for 8 swings. Average 3.82.

    We've known for a while that the Ridill breaks down to 30:50:20, and otherwiki says (but does not source) M. Kris at 10:80:10 new testing shows a likely M.Kris breakdown of 30:60:10

    So applying the percentage chances to eachother, it breaks down that a dual-wielding Ridill/KC breaks down to

    0*:1.5:7:16:23:22:15.5:15**

    And for KC/M.Kris

    0*:1.5:7.5:17:24:22:14.5:13.5*

    *Dual-wielding, can't only swing once
    **The 8-swing cap means that 8-11 all count for 8, it separates out to 8.9:4.1:1.6:0.4 for KC/Ridill and 8.4:3.4:1.5:.2 for KC/M.kris


    The delay totals are

    KC: 264
    Ridill/KC: 425(400 w/ suppa, 385 w/ suppa & Nuevo Dualwield)
    KC/M.kris: 387(364 w/ suppa, 351 w/ suppa & Nuevo Dualwield)

    I am unsure, but believe that means KC will be 1.6098484... swings for every Ridill/KC(1.515151... w/suppa 1.458333...w/ suppa & Nuevo Dualwield) and 1.4659090... for KC/M.kris(1.3787878... w/ suppa 1.3295454...w/ suppa & Nuevo Dualwield).

    Assuming you have a Suppa:
    In order for the KC/M.Kris to be better it must have an average of 5.57 swings, or 46% better. In order for the Ridill/KC to be better it must have an average of 6.11, or 60%, better.

    (If you have a Nuevo-augmented with Dualwield it becomes 5.04 swings for kris-combo, 32%/5.57 swings, 45% for Ridill)

    Thanks to formulas from Raen Ryong below we can find that:

    Ridill/KC gets an average of 5.635 per round

    KC/M.Kris gets an average of 5.55

    Therefore, on number of swings alone:

    A KC will average half a swing better in the same amount of time than a Ridill/KC.

    A KC will average a very slight fraction better than a KC/M.Kris

    However those numbers assume no dualwield gear, adding in a suppa means the KC/M.Kris becomes a touch better, adding both a suppa and Augmented Nuevo pushes it to about half of a swing. Ridill still loses with those extra.

    It's the smallest of direct upgrades, and it does not take into account the bonuses you can get from /drg and/or the 30 HP shield.

    What's unknown is both the Studio-Gobli numbers, though they're usually trusted.

    If my math's wrong feel free to tear in, I'm pretty sure of it though.

  2. #2
    I Have The Clap Again
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    I approve of this message

  3. #3
    King of the Jews
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    >_>; what the heck lol?

  4. #4
    the whitest knight u' know
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    I'm making the 3rd absolutely pointless and retarded response to this thread in a row.

    I always thought anything dual-wielded with a Kraken Club could only slow down your hits/sec because of everything else's incapability of having an average swing # higher than Kraken Club.

  5. #5
    I Have The Clap Again
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    I think everyone knows that and he just posted that..

  6. #6
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by miokomioko View Post
    I'm making the 3rd absolutely pointless and retarded response to this thread in a row.

    I always thought anything dual-wielded with a Kraken Club could only slow down your hits/sec because of everything else's incapability of having an average swing # higher than Kraken Club.
    That is true, but note the ** mark

    **The 8-swing cap means that 8-11 all count for 8, it separates out to 8.9:4.1:1.6:0.4 for KC/Ridill and 9.8:3.6:1.9:0.2 for KC/M.kris
    Because KC has a very low percentage of hitting 6-8 times, 15% total, actually getting pushed up by the 1-3 hits of an off-hand is not nearly as terrible as thought before. I still don't know if it's better though.

  7. #7
    Nidhogg
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    You just want average number of swings?

    This is easier to express in mathematical notation butttt

    Say you have a hit distribution of

    a / b / c / d / e / f / g / h, where a is greater than 0

    The resulting average hits per round is given by:

    [(a * 1) + (b * 2) + (c * 3) + (d * 4) + (e * 5) + (f * 6) + (g * 7) + (h * 8 )]/100

    This is because logically, imagine swinging 100 times with a standard weapon with no DA/TA etc.

    You will swing 100 times, yah? Average is then 1 per round.

    What happens when you add 5% DA? The distribution will change to 95/5. You don't swing 100 times though! You swing (95 + 5 * 2) times; 105. Average is 1.05 per round.

  8. #8
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raen Ryong View Post
    You just want average number of swings?

    This is easier to express in mathematical notation butttt...
    Yes that's exactly what I needed.

    Ridill/KC gets an average of 5.635 per round

    KC/M.Kris gets an average of 5.74

    Therefore, with a Suppa, on number of swings alone:

    A KC will average half a swing better in the same amount of time than a Ridill/KC.

    A KC/M.Kris will average half a swing better in the same amount of time than a KC.



    Someone prove me wrong I still need to buy an M.Kris for my COR

  9. #9
    Relic Weapons
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    Are you asking this because it has to do with DRK zergs? If it is then KC/kris loses out on up to 30 hp in shield slot and/or even more damage from subbing drg if you're going balls out.

  10. #10
    Relic Weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zirk View Post
    Are you asking this because it has to do with DRK zergs? If it is then KC/kris loses out on up to 30 hp in shield slot and/or even more damage from subbing drg if you're going balls out.
    Seems to be more toward Yochi RNG

  11. #11
    Relic Weapons
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    I'd think you'd definitely want to sub war or drg then if this is something like merits.

  12. #12
    Relic Weapons
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    town gear brah, don't you know your towngear also has to preform well in hypothetical situations?

  13. #13
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    I don't believe any of the distributions we're using are exact. Ridill is the most tested and probably the closest to true, and I think the Merc Kris one is most suspicious. Also, we don't really know how attack rounds with theoretical values >8 are handled. We can guess from Brutal Earring on Asuran Fists that they're just dropped, but for all we know they default to 1 or something, so that 2+8=3.

    If we assume that they are just dropped and that the distributions we have are correct:
    1 Attack from main hand -- 5:15:25:25:15:10:5 = 4.8 Attacks per round
    2 Attacks from main hand -- 5:15:25:25:15:15 = 5.75 Attacks per round
    3 Attacks from main hand -- 5:15:25:25:30 = 6.6 Attacks per round


    5.74 Attacks per round with Kris/K-club, 6.067 sec per round pre-Haste (5 TP/hit, 4.73 TP/sec) :: 0.946 attacks per second.
    5.635 Attacks per round with Ridill/K-club, 6.667 sec per round pre-Haste (5.4 TP/hit, 4.56 TP/sec) :: .845 attacks per second.
    3.82 Attacks per round with K-club alone, 4.4 sec per round pre-Haste (7 TP/hit, 6.08 TP/sec) :: .868 attacks per second

    For TP gain, K-club alone is best even when you're /NIN. For number of hits per second, Merc. Kris/K-club wins with the current attack distribution we have for it. Unless I missed a real reference, keep in mind that Merc Kris' attack distribution was pulled from an unsigned comment on otherwiki.

  14. #14
    Old Merits
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byrthnoth View Post
    Unless I missed a real reference, keep in mind that Merc Kris' attack distribution was pulled from an unsigned comment on otherwiki.
    This is the killer.

    Everything I have seen suggest that all "occasionally attacks 2-3 times" weapons followed the same 20:50:30 distribution.

    And it makes sense, why would SE want to code the hit distributions for every '2-3 times' weapon separably when they could write a little function and call that every time you use a '2-3 times' weapon.

    Edit the comment was made by Histasius -- 16:42, December 11, 2006

  15. #15
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argettio View Post
    This is the killer.

    Everything I have seen suggest that all "occasionally attacks 2-3 times" weapons followed the same 20:50:30 distribution.

    And it makes sense, why would SE want to code the hit distributions for every '2-3 times' weapon separably when they could write a little function and call that every time you use a '2-3 times' weapon.
    When has SE ever been consistant?

    Reguardless, assuming that we can just take the Ridill numbers for an average, we still bring it under winning the delay/attacks-per-round award, but it's a much much smaller margin now.

    I feel foolish for not emphasizing the M.Kris suspect origin as well, 's what I get for writing a post over a couple hour period.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthu View Post
    When has SE ever been consistant?
    True, but it still seems pointless for them to code them differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthu View Post
    Reguardless, assuming that we can just take the Ridill numbers for an average, we still bring it under winning the delay/attacks-per-round award, but it's a much much smaller margin now.

    I feel foolish for not emphasizing the M.Kris suspect origin as well, 's what I get for writing a post over a couple hour period.
    Ok, now for the important question:

    Is the increase in hits/sec enough to make KC/M.kris combo beat KC/30HP or KC/1% haste?

  17. #17
    Masamune
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    Multi-hits weapons distribution testings

    Why not parse those weapons distributions on Fortifications TheEldieme[S]? (Hpemde method requires way too low STR to be achievable: 35 for Mkrys and 23 for KC, on lvl76/77 Om')

    Maybe i can test M.Krys since i know someone owning one, but i don't know at all if she would lend me it just for testing :/

    Also, i thought Ridill distribution is 30:50:20, not 20:50:30 ?

  18. #18

    Quote Originally Posted by Masamune View Post

    Also, i thought Ridill distribution is 30:50:20, not 20:50:30 ?
    It most definitely is 30-50-20. The aforementioned distribution was confirmed back in the days by both my tests and by a Studio Gobli article which was published shortly after.

    EDIT - For some reason the links don't seem to work anymore but here's a babelfish-translated quote from the SG entry:

    As for attack frequency occurrence ratio of リディル with 30:50:20 average

  19. #19
    Masamune
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    Anything regarding other multihit weapons distribs Searain?

    btw i'm currently parsing Mkrys right now on Fortifications as BRD/whm with Heca body+hands slow18%, i hope KParser wont mess up with multihits :/

    EDIT: end of campaign battle, current results so far:

    5593 total melee rounds
    3217 rounds+1 (DAs)
    618 rounds+2 (TAs)
    0 rounds+<2 (no fuck ups )

    Single rate= 31.43% +/- 1.22%
    DA rate= 57.52% +/- 1.296%
    TA rate= 11.05% +/- 0.82%

    Big thanks to [email protected] for lending her M.Kris for this test.

    EDIT: started another parse for confirmation, this time adding heca head+feet so slow31%, results:
    5821 total melee rounds
    2895 rounds+1 (DAs)
    1127 rounds+2 (TAs)
    0 rounds+<2 (no fuck ups )

    Single rate= 30.9% +/- 1.19%
    DA rate= 49.73% +/- 1.28%
    TA rate= 19.36% +/- 1.015%

    Clearly a problem with 1st parse, maybe KParser fucked up?

  20. #20
    BG Content
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    Well, even if it follows the same distribution as Ridill, it's still going to be better for pure # of contacts than K-club assuming that rounds with attacks > 8 are just truncated to 8.

    5.635 Attacks per round with Kris/K-club, 6.067 sec per round pre-Haste (5 TP/hit, 4.64 TP/sec) :: 0.929 attacks per second.

    That said, the only situation I can think of where you care more about number of contacts than TP gain when using K-club is when you're zerging on DRK, and someone else would have to do the math there because as people have said you lose /DRG (potential 5-6% Haste) or +30HP. It'll certainly be worth it for times that you're already /NIN because you're getting at least 7% more attacks assuming a Ridill distribution for Kris, but probably not when comparing to /DRG.

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