Blue Magic and Sea Gorgets - Testing?

[Belgaer]

Now before you instantly dismiss the idea, just read on, please.

I've always wanted to see some testing on this. Everyone I've discussed this with thinks I'm crazy for the most part to consider it for one main reason.

Latent Effect: Increases weapon skill accuracy and damage

Theory is shot to hell? Possibly, but take into consideration: This was written when Weapon Skills, Blood Pacts, and mob TP moves (BST) were the only things in the game with skillchain properties. Avatars and BST pets are unaffected by gear that doesn't specifically say that it affects avatars or pets... So obviously, to simplify, the word "weapon skills" would likely be used. SE isn't one to revise 'completed' projects. Blue Mage wasn't introduced until a while after the gorgets were, unless I'm hugely mistaken.

Now, for those unfamiliar with how physical Blue Magic works, they generally can't participate in skillchains. Chain Affinity (job ability) must be used to activate their skillchain property so that it goes into effect, so evidence shows us. Every physical blue magic spell has it's own skillchain property(two in some cases), much like (most) weapon skills. I believe it's possible the gorgets' latent may activate completely based on skillchain property, rather than only for weapon skills, as we all know SE has no foresight, or at least selective foresight.

It's often assumed that Blue Magic is unaffected by gorgets. I'm not looking for opinions being treated as if they were facts. I see too much of this going on already. If you want to speak your mind, that's fine, I'd just really rather not hear "it's not possible" without any testing to show. Please have an open mind.

So my question is... Is there any testing on this? Can someone point me in the direction of some? Parse results are highly encouraged, whatever the sample size.

[Yugl]

What is the role of fTP in the formula for CA BLU Magic? If you can answer that, you might have a plausible proposal.

[Suiram]

I felt like this is something someone tested in the early BLU days, but when I searched for "gorget" in Blue Mage Job Findings I didn't see anything about it, so maybe not.

I think your best bet would be testing with Foot Kick (1.00 fTP at all TP levels, Breeze Gorget) or Ram Charge (1.00 at 0% TP CA or without CA, Breeze or Thunder Gorget). The lower the fTP, the better, since gorget would make a more pronounced difference if it works. The only ones lower are Seedspray at 0.875, Ice or Wind Gorget, and Asuran Claws at 0.625, Fire or Thunder, but since they're multi-hit you'd probably need to use SA on low-level mobs so you don't get errors from missed first hit. Also the WSC mod on Asuran Claws isn't known, it's said to be DEX but the % is unconfirmed, so that might make it not worth using unless you want to figure that out first.

I don't imagine this is something that would be better ascertained by parsing than by controlled testing on low-level mobs. Also, I have no idea what a desirable sample size would be. I don't think it's completely unreasonable though. BLU physical spells are essentially WSs with some different inputs, to my mind they could be justified making "Weapon Skill:____" gear work on it--with or without CA--it's just a question of whether or not they actually did.

[jimbobsonofgod]

Couldn't this have been asked in the random question thread ?

Now that i'm all done back seat modding.

My question is even on the LOOOONG shot that it works on blu spells based solely on the fact that the game recognizes blu spells as a WEAPON SKILL. Instead of a SPELL, or Wild Flourish or BP. Would gorget be better for blu spells on a CA more then let say 4 Str 4 Dex?
I have to say on paper just because something has a Skill Chain Property, Doesn't make it a WEAPON SKILL.

But good luck in finding someone to test.

[Argettio]

Would gorget be better for blu spells on a CA more then let say 4 Str 4 Dex?

That would depend on the fTP of the spell and the modifiers.

But if it works then I would assume gorgets would be better most of the time (as with normal WSs).

[Suiram]

Couldn't this have been asked in the random question thread ?

Now that i'm all done back seat modding.

My question is even on the LOOOONG shot that it works on blu spells based solely on the fact that the game recognizes blu spells as a WEAPON SKILL. Instead of a SPELL, or Wild Flourish or BP. Would gorget be better for blu spells on a CA more then let say 4 Str 4 Dex?
I have to say on paper just because something has a Skill Chain Property, Doesn't make it a WEAPON SKILL.

But good luck in finding someone to test.

Really, should have been asked in the BLU thread, it's back on page 4 now and should never be allowed to die!

Anyway, if gorgets indeed worked on BLU physical spells they'd certainly be better than stat piece almost all the time, at least on single-hit WS (comparable to the gorget question for WSs, I guess). To see this, you just need to take the fTP and add .1 (or convert to 256th and add 25 if you're anal) to see the difference. For instance, on everyone's favorite, Cannonball, it would be a 5.6% increase in damage. There's no way you get that from 1 fSTR and 1~2 WSC unless you have depressingly low base damage to start (actually impossibly low for this particular example).

[Belgaer]

Couldn't this have been asked in the random question thread ?

Now that i'm all done back seat modding.

My question is even on the LOOOONG shot that it works on blu spells based solely on the fact that the game recognizes blu spells as a WEAPON SKILL. Instead of a SPELL, or Wild Flourish or BP. Would gorget be better for blu spells on a CA more then let say 4 Str 4 Dex?
I have to say on paper just because something has a Skill Chain Property, Doesn't make it a WEAPON SKILL.

But good luck in finding someone to test.

Well, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not questioning if blue magic is considered a weaponskill by the game or not. The simple fact that they cost MP rather than TP and that there are no TP returns on a Chain Affinity'd physical spell prove that. The question is how the gorgets recognize weaponskills. Do they check to make sure it's specifically a weaponskill, or do they only check the skillchain property of the action used?

I'm slowly testing this theory for myself, and the sample size is still very small, but here are my findings so far:

-Using Soil Gorget on Screwdriver and Spinal Cleave VS an empty neck slot. Sneak Attack and Chain Affinity both active. Two players participated in each for two different sample sets.
-For both spells and players, Soil Gorget did actually average higher, but only by a range of 2-10 damage. Given that only single-fold spells were tested, there should be more of a difference if gorgets do affect blue magic. However, the fact that the gorgets do average higher interests me. It could be chance, or maybe it does mean something after all...
-Vertical Cleave yet to be tested.
-I will continue to test in sets of 10 casts, multiple times per spell and neck equip. I'd really like larger sample sizes for the sets, but the 2 min recast on Chain Affinity is killing me. -.- If I get a set for the empty neck that averaged higher, I will discontinue testing.


As for why I didn't post this thread in the Blue Mage findings, I actually did ask this same question twice before, a good while back. I get a couple "I'm not sure, but I doubt it"s and the topic changed. I seem to be getting more replies now. >.> The Blue Mage Findings thread is more about answering questions for new Blue Mages anymore, not testing. At least until the next time SE decides to add new spells.

[Kyte]

I'm glad this is being tested again. While older BLU testing did show that it didn't, a lot of the older BLU testing is either incomplete or flat out wrong.

For example, older BLU testing when the job first out showed that Subtle Blow didn't affect blue magic. However, in a simple 5 minute test I did about a year ago, it most certainly did >_>; No idea how anyone could screw such a simple test up.

[Nevex]

I'm not sure if CA'd blue magic spells are recognized as WS. If it was the case, wouldn't they be able to always act like a WS in every circumstance? I can't think of many examples right now, but I recall that blu spells can't chop Hydra's heads just to name a case.

I'm still prone to believe that blue magic, CA'd or not, makes its own category, or the same one as blood pacts at most.

[Kyte]

Well, that automaton for the PUP AF3 fight does recognize Physical Blue magic as magic.

[Yugl]

BLU magic in general is such a complex entity that I doubt we'll find a profoundly correct answer simply by debating its "element" in other areas of the game. I do wonder, however, if there is a mechanical means of enhancing the SA tests. For example, reducing your STR to such extreme levels that the fTP would be drastically noticeable.

[Belgaer]

Again, my question was never about how blue magic works. >.> Read my last post. The theory is based on the core mechanics of the gorgets and if they recognize "weapon skills" or if they just recognize skillchain properties.

[miokomioko]

So, are all you BLUs just sitting around with your thumbs up your asses waiting for the next guy to bother doing the testing?

[Psion]

All I got is a soil gorget and I'm still busy camping hazmat as pup atm. =x

(damn him and his refusal to spawn until 5 hours has passed, or drop anything, 0/2)

[Kyte]

I'm waiting until December 1st to reactivate.

[chiyio]

All I got is a soil gorget and I'm still busy camping hazmat as pup atm. =x

(damn him and his refusal to spawn until 5 hours has passed, or drop anything, 0/2)

So when it pops, you'll have an hour to kill. Go to Ronfaure, find a rabbit, make sure Gorget is not equipped (neck slot void). *Buff yourself up with STR, Attack Bonus, Triumphant Roar, SA Vertical Cleave, record damage*. THEN Equip Gorget, repeat *. THEN Use CA, repeat *.record all 3 damages. Should give us a pretty good idea.

[Kyte]

Attack doesn't affect Blue Magic...

Anywho, the exact opposite might be better, as suggested by Yugl- reduce your STR with Errant and SA+spell with that, although I'm not sure if ~-14 STR would be enough to make that work and I can't think of any other sources of -STR off hand.

[Suiram]

The thing that will help the most is, as I said in the earlier post, using a spell with a lower base fTP. That's why a spell like Vertical Cleave (3.0 fTP) wouldn't be as good as one like Ram Charge (1.0 fTP), because a 3.2% difference won't be as easy to see as a 5.6% difference. Other stats aren't really important, except that you want the final damage high enough that it'll take fewer trials to observe a 5~6% increase in damage (or lack thereof). But against level 1 mobs, you shouldn't have an issue with that, either, I wouldn't think, even if you went naked + gorget.

Also, as I said, Seedspray or Asuran Claws would be the best, because gorget would (if it worked) give an 11.2% increase or 15.6% increase, respectively. The only limitation with those as opposed to Foot Kick or Ram Charge is you're limited to casting once every 60 seconds because you'd need Sneak Attack, although if you're only testing if it works during Chain Affinity then that doesn't much matter.

[Masamune]

If blu spells have "pDIF discrepancies" like normal phys dmg, Sneak Attack will only make your chances of crit'd spells higher to actually see the very rare CRITpDIFhigh (3.15 i don't know for blumagic).

With the method suggested (if i udnerstood correctly), what you can see in practice is:

- CASA FootKick 100TP (no gorget)= 248dmg
- CASA FootKick 100TP (w gorget)= 245dmg
- CASA FootKick 100TP (no gorget)= 255dmg
- CASA FootKick 100TP (w gorget)= 238dmg
etc... making you like "wtf o.O"...
...until 36th cast you notice in your recorded dmg that you got :
- CASA FootKick 100TP (w gorget)= 259 dmg x4
- CASA FootKick 100TP (no gorget)= 238dmg x5 <- these 2 dmg values are "maybe" the spell cap @ 100TP, assuming more casts won't get you another higher dmg value.

this just show you :

So when it pops, you'll have an hour to kill. Go to Ronfaure, find a rabbit, make sure Gorget is not equipped (neck slot void). *Buff yourself up with STR, Attack Bonus, Triumphant Roar, SA Vertical Cleave, record damage*. THEN Equip Gorget, repeat *. THEN Use CA, repeat *.record all 3 damages. Should give us a pretty good idea.

... is just wrong. Personnaly, that "pDIF randomizer" made me kill 5000k+ rabbits through 5 different ranked weapons to get only the pDIF caps.

In other hand, if BLU spells arenot affected by that "randomizer", ie always getting same dmg value, like a nuke, then you'll get LOT less trials needed to see the difference between with or w/o gorget.

Hope that will help testing correctly.

[chiyio]

The thing that will help the most is, as I said in the earlier post, using a spell with a lower base fTP. That's why a spell like Vertical Cleave (3.0 fTP) wouldn't be as good as one like Ram Charge (1.0 fTP), because a 3.2% difference won't be as easy to see as a 5.6% difference.

I was actually just commenting to the guy in question, since he only had soil gorget.

... is just wrong. Personnaly, that "pDIF randomizer" made me kill 5000k+ rabbits through 5 different ranked weapons to get only the pDIF caps.

The forced crits are supposed to help reduce the effects of said randomizer.