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Thread: Joyeuse: Enspell 1 or 2?     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #1
    They're coming to take me away. Ha Ha!
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    Joyeuse: Enspell 1 or 2?

    I know I know, lolRDMmelee, but I need a shit load of allied notes and this is my most efficient Campaign job, and I figure I might as well optimize it.

    At 286 skill, I have 19/hit Enspell1 and 18-36/hit Enspell2 (Would be 19-38, but it calculates per hit rather than upon cast like Enspell1, and I won't be swinging in my Enhancing gear).

    Since Enspell1s proc on additional attacks per round, and Joyeuse has ~50% DA rate, you can basically break it down to 19/hit at ~147 delay VS. 18-36/hit at 224 delay.

    I will have 14% Haste in gear plus Haste spell.

    I know that, if the mob doesn't last a certain amount of time, then Enspell2 won't reach it's max potential and won't come anywhere even close to Enspell1. Basically, what I would like to know is, does Enspell2 ever surpass Enspell1, and how many attack rounds would it take.

  2. #2
    Relic Shield
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    While I dont have the math answer you're looking for, I'd just like to point out this is wrong:
    "I know that, if the mob doesn't last a certain amount of time, then Enspell2 won't reach it's max potential and won't come anywhere even close to Enspell1."
    Enspell2 damage carries over untill the spell wears off.

  3. #3
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    Doh >.<

    Thanks. It's been a while since I played. Then I guess only the first question matters:

    Does Enspell2 surpass Enspell1 in the above circumstances?

  4. #4

    You'll be doing almost double the damage of en-1 with en-2, so unless you'd have a 100% DA rate (You won't ofc), it'll end up being better

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siniroth View Post
    You'll be doing almost double the damage of en-1 with en-2, so unless you'd have a 100% DA rate (You won't ofc), it'll end up being better
    Except it doesn't start off at the 2x damage level.

    Only way to find which is better is to parse it. Probably en-2 for single wield, en-1 for dual wield, but anyone who claims to know the answer and hasn't parsed it is bullshitting.

    The answer will also (probably) change depending on if you're using composure or not.

  6. #6

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMysteriousX View Post
    Only way to find which is better is to parse it. Probably en-2 for single wield, en-1 for dual wield, but anyone who claims to know the answer and hasn't parsed it is bullshitting.
    You're retarded.

    The answer will also (probably) change depending on if you're using composure or not.
    Composure it with refresh at the very least if you're cancelling composure. There's no real need to cancel it all in campaign though.

    224 delay * .71(29% haste with spell) = 160 delay, 2 2/3 seconds
    9 min duration(540 sec) / 2u2/3 = 203 attacks, worst case you're engaged for ~70 of them(roughly a third, if you aren't engaged a third of the time it's an awful battle).

    105 * 19 = 1995(50% DA)
    70 * 36 = 2520
    - 18 - 17 - 16 - 15 - 14 - 13 -12 - 11 -10 - 9 - 8 - 7 - 6 -5 -4 -3 - 2 -1 =2349

    Enspell2 will do 17.7% more damage over time if you are engaged for as little as one third of the time it's cast each composure cycle. If you're engaged for more, the gap widens significantly.

  7. #7
    Melee Summoner
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    I always use enspell 1 but I don't have concrete numbers. The reason is that damage (and macc?) of enspell 1 is calculated at the time of the cast, and enspell 2 max damage is calculated at the time of each hit. So, enspell 1 you can equip all your +enhancing gear, and then swap back out to haste gear when meleeing. Enspell 2 will do less damage if you not full timing your enhancing gear, and if you are you gimping melee damage. You will also see much more resists with enspell 2. SE really really got enspell II wrong, they couldn't have made a worse buff for melee rdm imo.

  8. #8
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    If i remember the old maths

    came down to something like

    Sword = Enspell 1
    Dagger = Enspell 2

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorny View Post
    You're retarded.


    Composure it with refresh at the very least if you're cancelling composure. There's no real need to cancel it all in campaign though.

    224 delay * .71(29% haste with spell) = 160 delay, 2 2/3 seconds
    9 min duration(540 sec) / 2u2/3 = 203 attacks, worst case you're engaged for ~70 of them(roughly a third, if you aren't engaged a third of the time it's an awful battle).

    105 * 19 = 1995(50% DA)
    70 * 36 = 2520
    - 18 - 17 - 16 - 15 - 14 - 13 -12 - 11 -10 - 9 - 8 - 7 - 6 -5 -4 -3 - 2 -1 =2349

    Enspell2 will do 17.7% more damage over time if you are engaged for as little as one third of the time it's cast each composure cycle. If you're engaged for more, the gap widens significantly.
    So you call me retarded then agree with me about single wielding? Doesn't that make you retarded too?

    Since you're quick with numbers what about non composure and dual wielding and as someone above mentioned, dagger as well. Try being useful instead of (rather poorly) insulting.

  10. #10
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    with joyeuse you should be using enspell 1. because you can use full haste and still keep the max damage from it's cast. Enspell 2 you have to keep your enhancing gear on for it to be as good as 2 hits from enspell 1. which means you're losing at least 5% haste. (assuming you use nashira pants and dusk gloves) which means you're missing out on a lot more damage over time from hits alone let alone additional effect procs.

  11. #11

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMysteriousX View Post
    So you call me retarded then agree with me about single wielding? Doesn't that make you retarded too?

    Since you're quick with numbers what about non composure and dual wielding and as someone above mentioned, dagger as well. Try being useful instead of (rather poorly) insulting.
    Dual wielding, enspell1 will always win even without a multihit weapon provided your offhand has equal or greater acc to your mainhand. I called you retarded because parses are the worst way of calculating damage for a known circumstance. They're severely luck based and require a huge sample to even out, many more factors can skew parses than calculations.

    @Nitrous : Enspell2 still wins without fulltiming enhancing gear, even moreso if you have merciful/torque/earring to gain additional damage per hit without sacrificing haste.

  12. #12
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    There was some math and (I believe) testing done on this shortly after the spells were released (search the forums for it). It said Enspell 2 would actually do a tad better for Joyeuse than Enspell 1's, but that if you're Dual Wielding, Enspell 1's were better. Siniroth is partially right in this, and would be right if Enspell 2's did indeed do two times the damage enspell 1's do from the start, instead of building up to twice the damage. Of course, if you're camping an NM, using enspells only to kill one or two PHs every 5 minutes or something like that, Enspell 2's would never get the chance to catch up. So really, it's situational and should be left up for the RDM to decide.

    Also, other factors; such as if you are having trouble landing a certain enfeeble, if you have a BLM friend nuking, etc. etc.; all still apply. Bare this in mind as well.

  13. #13

    The reason I discounted the need to build up is that they last 9 minutes while under the effect of composure, and do not take very many hits to build up, if en-2 did 45% (wiki figure for DA rate on joyeuse) or less extra damage per hit over en-1 on joyeuse, but it builds up to near double damage per hit (less with enhancing gear off ofc) so you need a much higher DA rate to counter the added damage.

    While I'm sure the difference between the two is not going to be outstandingly large, En-2 will win on joyeuse (not dualwielding, he didn't mention dualwielding in the OP, so I ignored dualwield)

  14. #14
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    If its Joy alone, I think both of them come pretty close up, since you're looking at 50%ish DA vs double the damage once you hit cap. The main difference lies in the period of time between when Enspell2 is used and caps.. though that alone depends on your accuracy rate and haste gear and the mob, etc.

    If it's dual wielding then I believe Enspell 1 wins out for sure.

    Anyway, since you say you're using it in campaign.. does additional damage from enspells even factor into the point calculation? or is it just for more damage output?

  15. #15

    From my experiences, it does, as does spikes damage

  16. #16
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    I just use enspell2 unless I'm Joy/Justice. then it's just fun to use enspell1's

  17. #17
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    Enspell 1 when dual wielding OR when using Joytoy. Reason being, it WOULD be close, but Enspell 2 wont proc on the second swing if the first swing misses on Joytoy. So it doesnt come down to 50% less enspel damage per hit 50% more hits or anything as simple, unless your accuracy is almost perfect enspell 1 will win out - its not like you need the additional effect of Meva- to land spells on lolcampaign mobs or anything.

    I campaign RDM/WAR and with all the pdt- gear etc you can get along with defender etc, you can easily tank 5-10+ mobs if you have to with little danger and always cap out on points/notes. RDM/DRK is fun too

  18. #18

    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeydonkey View Post
    Enspell 1 when dual wielding OR when using Joytoy. Reason being, it WOULD be close, but Enspell 2 wont proc on the second swing if the first swing misses on Joytoy. So it doesnt come down to 50% less enspel damage per hit 50% more hits or anything as simple, unless your accuracy is almost perfect enspell 1 will win out - its not like you need the additional effect of Meva- to land spells on lolcampaign mobs or anything.
    Flawed logic.

    95% hitrate, 200 attack rounds, 50% DA, 36 on first hit 18 on second hit(vague example, I already posted real calculation earlier but apparently nobody can read).

    First Swing: 200 * .95 = 190 * 36 = 6840 enspell damage from enspell2
    First Swing Enspell 1: 200 * .95 = 190 * 18 = 3420 enspell damage from enspell1
    Second Swing: 100 * .95 = 95 * 18 = 1710, total of 5130 or .75 of enspell2's damage

    Accuracy is entirely independant, as both swings are capable of missing.

  19. #19

    THORNY YOU MAKE ME SO FUCKING WET I WANT YOU TO DO MATHS ALL OVER MY BODY

  20. #20

    If you like to /DNC, you should probably use the T2s. Problem with pitching numbers in a vacuum is you're not really accounting time you spend enfeebling, curing yourself, or reapplying stoneskin if you use it. Mobs can also stun or simply interrupt, too.

    Magic already takes a bit of a hit in Campaign, and when I was running around with 301 skill, my expected +20 T1s were more like +17s. The fact T2s also run off the oldschool Damage/MACC timing of T1s also makes me hate them since your odds of seeing a partial resist increase, too. I'd be at 258 Enhancing in my melee gear, 14% haste gear, Fencer latent forced, too. Chose Ethereal over Hollow for brokenness of DRG/mage and haven't bothered trying for Lycopodium or whatever. Would've been awesome if +1'd AF legs and Relic hands got Haste, but that'd make too much sense for a melee mage.

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