Einherjar: To /NIN or to /DMG, that is the question

[Darlantan]

Why so sad? All three are STR modded, and if you knew the relation between DEX and crits (for RR) you'd know to go all-out or not-at-all... right? You're advocating a lot of inconvenience for a tiny bit of gain. An "ideal" RR set would seem to vary considerably with mob.

Seriously? If you had read the thread where I said it was posted, you would notice it was a discussion trying to compare the different WSs. Not having specific sets for each is gimp and silly, trying to prove one WS better than the other using the same setup for both isnt also bright. It's not a tiny bit of a gain, considering it was done on merit mobs whose stats are widely known sir.

Also Thorny, am I whooshing or you quoted a person and put my name on it? ; ;

[jammalamma]

That's the only event 6 people would be doing, and they wouldn't be doing it well.

And that's fine, gimps like to associate themselves with other gimps Even if you choose to ignore the fact that the whole point being all of that was to say that maximum number > below the maximum was the sole point of that tangent, you've already shown that you have difficulty grasping things even when they're dictated to you. It's like we're taking a test and you ask me who did America fight in The War of 1812 and I tell you the British but you still write down the Bad Guyz.

[Thorny]

Seriously? If you had read the thread where I said it was posted, you would notice it was a discussion trying to compare the different WSs. Not having specific sets for each is gimp and silly, trying to prove one WS better than the other using the same setup for both isnt also bright. It's not a tiny bit of a gain, considering it was done on merit mobs whose stats are widely known sir.

Also Thorny, am I whooshing or you quoted a person and put my name on it? ; ;

was a page back and i didnt want to screw with multi, sorry Guess it was Yugl.

[Yugl]

That's the only event 6 people would be doing, and they wouldn't be doing it well.

If Einherjar, JOL, and Camping NMs is the only thing your LS does, then don't use the method prescribed; it's that simple. Not to mention those six people can go camp and kill certain HNMs (Fafnir) since you seem to have such trouble scheduling events and HNMs.

And that's fine, gimps like to associate themselves with other gimps Even if you choose to ignore the fact that the whole point being all of that was to say that maximum number > below the maximum was the sole point of that tangent, you've already shown that you have difficulty grasping things even when they're dictated to you. It's like we're taking a test and you ask me who did America fight in The War of 1812 and I tell you the British but you still write down the Bad Guyz.

It's more like you saying "Those guys with the bad teeth" then bitching when I don't write the British. You're just bitching that someone misunderstood something you communicated incorrectly to begin with. I'm not surprised to find this logic come from an individual who thinks 64 member Dynamis is the way to roll.

If you have enough people/organization to consistantly clear all chambers, I'd hope you can manage a 3 mule cycle to allow odin every fourth run. In this case, anyone who wants odin drops will need the feather.

I agree. However, since Odin requires a fraction of the members needed for a normal run (Killed with like 24 on our first kill, and it can be done with less) you'll save members on Odin runs. For regular runs, you can cut people not up for drops on the next Odin. If neither is possible, then of course, don't do it. It's just a way of maximizing human capital given the right circumstances.

[Shinryuu]

Zhi you sigged me <3

[ZhiGaruda]

Zhi you sigged me <3

You're worth it, babe

[Wrish]

If you cannot win without the added support of /DMG subs, while other shells are entirely capable of doing so, you must acknowledge that your DMG crew is in some sense flawed.

I called the whole paragraph gibberish because it's really just a personal attack disguised as a conditional. Twice you re-iterate the conditional as if to insinuate its truth. There's no meaning to this for Einherjar shells in general. Endgame shells get gear for players so they aren't as "flawed." You don't block either element of a chicken-and-egg setup.

"If your LS cannot win without DDs subbing DMG, then your DDs are flawed"
or your buffs are weak, or you have so few DDs to begin with.

"If your LS cannot win without DDs subbing NIN, then your mages are flawed"
or the job setup is flawed, or your DDs don't touch Seigan, or they simply take extra long on mobs, or you have so few mages.

The whole shell is a team. To know whether a DD is "flawed" all you have to do is /check them, and to know whether a mage is "flawed" all you do is observe or parse them in some high-attendance event like Dynamis. There's no point in calling an entire alliance gimped; as leader you make a strategy to get around that so they'll not be perpetually gimped.

Back when Einherjar started, I saw many comparably equipped shells wipe to tier 2/3. The single most important ingredient for securing wins was rotating bards. I think you'll agree how useless it is to criticize all those shells for having flawed equipment/healers; they just had "flawed" leaders that never drew on the idea of singing for multiple parties.

During the 15+20min (36 Member) run, you are simultaneously completing other events.

I think you mean 15+30min (30 member) run. But counting six other members would add man-hours as well as outside rewards, contaminating the ratio with relative efficiency of that outside event to Einherjar.

What is your point, really? You now advocate trimming members and subbing NIN to compensate for safety. So you'll slow down the run not just by cutting # of DDs but by cutting individual damage potential. Couldn't that outweigh the minor efficiency gains from better coordination in smaller groups?

It'd have been a fine argument if reduced membership didn't come with changing to a "gimp" subjob, or if you stuck to increased travel time from having all members show up to each event. Jamma gets to stand ground because the majority of shells risk loss if they all /DMG and don't go in with full alliances.

Speaking of efficiency:

36-member rotating tier 1 (6 feather characters)
36-member rotating tier 2 (6 feather characters)
36-member rotating tier 3 (6 feather characters)
16-member Odin x2 (4 people sitting out)

seems to minimize man-hours:gear... so long as your idyllic shell has perfect attendance and the tight job setup for Odin with 16 (I'm pulling a Thorny).

[Amastacia]

18 can do all zones + omega comfortably with proper job spread.. 36 should be able to get an omega kill and at least half an ultima set =/

NW: BLM BLM
SW: BLM BRD
NE: RDM BRD DD
SE: RDM BRD DD
Omega Pt1: RDM WHM BRD BRD DRK DRK
Omega Pt2: BLM BLM

Cute, but oh-so-risky. Certainly not comfortable knowing that one little mess-up means your 8-member Omega team has to find something else to do.

Risky? No, not really. Thorny's pretty much spot on there.

SW is also doable with RDM+DD if the DD is decent at tanking (I've never once said /NIN is useless or has no place).

Only "risks" are KB, which is easily handled by having 2 BLMs who aren't retarded, and having to kill all 3 Gigas in NE, which is dealt with by not wasting time getting greedy on item chests.

[Wrish]

Lots can happen on people's off-days. If KB is a risk (I wouldn't have thought to single that out), so is agro'ing/linking regular Behemoths or not responding to a bad gravity... so is getting one-shot by Goob Harvester or lagging to that sea monk... so is getting drawn in by a treasure chest or blood-agroing one of those undead... so is dc'ing. When you expect 10 people all to work flawlessly for 1-1.5 hours, you're tempting fate and asking for a chain reaction that leads to postponing Omega for half a week. Flawless expectations are never comfortable.

This thread is about efficiency, and experience tells me people are usually less efficient when they worry. Mistakes skyrocket. Thorny proposed an ideal, but you know it's impractical because of how few shells actually do that (do you even know of an 18-person single-cycle-Omega shell?).

[Amastacia]

Lots can happen on people's off-days. If KB is a risk (I wouldn't have thought to single that out), so is agro'ing/linking regular Behemoths or not responding to a bad gravity... so is getting one-shot by Goob Harvester or lagging to that sea monk... so is getting drawn in by a treasure chest or blood-agroing one of those undead... so is dc'ing. When you expect 10 people all to work flawlessly for 1-1.5 hours, you're tempting fate and asking for a chain reaction that leads to postponing Omega for half a week. Flawless expectations are never comfortable.

This thread is about efficiency, and experience tells me people are usually less efficient when they worry. Mistakes skyrocket. Thorny proposed an ideal, but you know it's impractical because of how few shells actually do that (do you even know of an 18-person single-cycle-Omega shell?).

If we're talking about efficiency, we're not including people with known-to-be-unstable/laggy connections. So disconnects/lag are minor risks.

The rest of your "risky" situations are actually pretty laughable. Slow/Elegy virtually eliminate the risk of one-shottery in NE and SE. Links/blood aggro mean you were impatient, stupid, or pulled the wrong way. Treasure Chests even being listed as "risky" makes me wonder what you're smoking.

Thorny's ideal works very well in a smaller scale. No reason why it wouldn't scale up. Used to farm and sell Omega drops with about 7-8 people for the actual Omega fight, and farm chips in groups no larger than 3 (more available farmers = more zones completed in a night). Losing was not a statistically significant event. Adding more people just reduced the time between Omega fights (especially after accounting for possible chip drops from Omega himself). Plenty of other groups did/do the same on the same scale. More people would just mean more zones farmed, and with 18 his ideal wouldn't be difficult at all to pull off.

[Despain]

Ringthree quoted The Fast and the Furious. Can we delete this thread and pretend it never existed now?

Except the quote he quoted is fucking winsauce. youmad

[ZhiGaruda]

Lots can happen on people's off-days. If KB is a risk (I wouldn't have thought to single that out), so is agro'ing/linking regular Behemoths or not responding to a bad gravity... so is getting one-shot by Goob Harvester or lagging to that sea monk... so is getting drawn in by a treasure chest or blood-agroing one of those undead... so is dc'ing. When you expect 10 people all to work flawlessly for 1-1.5 hours, you're tempting fate and asking for a chain reaction that leads to postponing Omega for half a week. Flawless expectations are never comfortable.

This thread is about efficiency, and experience tells me people are usually less efficient when they worry. Mistakes skyrocket. Thorny proposed an ideal, but you know it's impractical because of how few shells actually do that (do you even know of an 18-person single-cycle-Omega shell?).

Yes. Thorny's shell.

[Despain]

Someone actually said Omega was hard? Wait, what?

[Yugl]

I called the whole paragraph gibberish because it's really just a personal attack disguised as a conditional. Twice you re-iterate the conditional as if to insinuate its truth. There's no meaning to this for Einherjar shells in general. Endgame shells get gear for players so they aren't as "flawed." You don't block either element of a chicken-and-egg setup.

1. If you're so adamant that it was a personal attack, then why ask if I was making a personal attack?
2. Since you obviously did not figure it out, the first two sentences were preemptive premises for the following two comments.

"If your LS cannot win without DDs subbing DMG, then your DDs are flawed"
or your buffs are weak, or you have so few DDs to begin with.

Notice how I mentioned earlier that this is a theme that came out of this thread. I also mentioned specifically that is not fact. It's also the case that LSs with fewer members than the maximum clear Einherjar without trouble using sub NIN. Moreover, your LS should be able to control the buffs your melee receives. In short, as a leader, you should be able to control how many DDs you have and what buffs they receive.

"If your LS cannot win without DDs subbing NIN, then your mages are flawed"
or the job setup is flawed, or your DDs don't touch Seigan, or they simply take extra long on mobs, or you have so few mages.

Note that this was Jammalamma's statement. As you can see, it's one that places emphasis on the mage's role to the extent that melee subs become irrelevant.

In short, attacking me on these issues is not going to get you far since I only compiled them as themes from other posts in this thread. It's a simple idea though. If your DDs cannot produce enough DMG to win with NIN sub (DD Flaw), then you may need sub DMG. If your mages cannot control the mob to the extent that sub DMG works, you may need sub NIN. Overall, which sub you support in this debate is likely to be dependent on your LS's functions.

The whole shell is a team. To know whether a DD is "flawed" all you have to do is /check them, and to know whether a mage is "flawed" all you do is observe or parse them in some high-attendance event like Dynamis. There's no point in calling an entire alliance gimped; as leader you make a strategy to get around that so they'll not be perpetually gimped.

You need to see them in action to know whether they're flawed. Gear means a lot, but at the same time, the difference between an aggressive and passive melee is noticeable. For mages, as you mentioned, you check their action and reaction during certain events.

The bold emphasizes what I've been trying to demonstrate in the first paragraph. To suggest that someone is wrong for subbing NIN is ignorant unless you're aware of their LS's conditions. On the same token, saying never sub DMG is equally as wrong it's required for your LS's victory. Do you now understand?

Back when Einherjar started, I saw many comparably equipped shells wipe to tier 2/3. The single most important ingredient for securing wins was rotating bards. I think you'll agree how useless it is to criticize all those shells for having flawed equipment/healers; they just had "flawed" leaders that never drew on the idea of singing for multiple parties.

All I'll mention on this issue is that if it works for you, then great. The last Einherjar shell I was in absolutely despised me for mentioning bard rotations.

I think you mean 15+30min (30 member) run. But counting six other members would add man-hours as well as outside rewards, contaminating the ratio with relative efficiency of that outside event to Einherjar.

Doing two simultaneous events does not "add" to man-hours. If your LS does Einherjar from 3-330PM and at the same time does Byakko(lol?), you're not suddenly adding 30min. You're maximizing the amount of rewards you receive within the same 30min. In short, by removing six members from an event you'll win without their support, you've managed to receive not only an Einherjar feather within 30min, but also TWO light crystals.

What is your point, really? You now advocate trimming members and subbing NIN to compensate for safety. So you'll slow down the run not just by cutting # of DDs but by cutting individual damage potential. Couldn't that outweigh the minor efficiency gains from better coordination in smaller groups?

If it does then don't use it. It's only applicable to those who are capable of trimming members in the first place. It's only applicable to those who are capable of winning with sub NIN while trimming members. That's why I went out of my way to emphasize conditions!

Look at this from an outside perspective using the type of shells we've seen in this thread. There are some LSs that say they win with DMG sub and roughly 20-25 members. At the same time, I know for a fact that these members carry gear most shells cannot begin to compete with (Sath and Kirschy). Then there are people who win with the same numbers, but using sub NIN. The only individual I've seen say this, that I know for certain has ridiculous gear, is FM. Common sense would lead you to conclude that perhaps it's *easier* with sub NIN because it's defensive and makes up for common flaws. Then we have the last category, which is a full 36 member LS that claims sub DMG is the only way to go and boasts about efficiency. I'm saying that if you want to truly be efficient, then you should cut members that don't need the win and allocate them towards other events even if it means you become one of those LSs that needs to sub NIN.

It'd have been a fine argument if reduced membership didn't come with changing to a "gimp" subjob, or if you stuck to increased travel time from having all members show up to each event. Jamma gets to stand ground because the majority of shells risk loss if they all /DMG and don't go in with full alliances.

For someone whom will shortly complain about minor "risks" in Apollyon, I'm surprised to hear you regard NIN as a gimp subjob. NIN is a much safer sub since it reduces the effects of mistakes such as stunning. It's also nice to know echo drops are more expedient than Echpo Rings (Unless you're already wearing one). Also, to suggest that shells risk loss because they do not go in with full alliances and /DMG is to be ignorant of the facts. There are several LSs here that claim to win rotations while subbing NIN. The shells that win with less numbers and sub DMG likely to be just as capable of winning with sub NIN as they are with sub DMG due to the equipment of their members.

Speaking of efficiency:

36-member rotating tier 1 (6 feather characters)
36-member rotating tier 2 (6 feather characters)
36-member rotating tier 3 (6 feather characters)
16-member Odin x2 (4 people sitting out)

seems to minimize man-hours:gear... so long as your idyllic shell has perfect attendance and the tight job setup for Odin with 16 (I'm pulling a Thorny).

That's great, but I hope you're not comparing how "idealistic" it is to win with less than 36 members who are sub NIN to this.

Lots can happen on people's off-days. If KB is a risk (I wouldn't have thought to single that out), so is agro'ing/linking regular Behemoths or not responding to a bad gravity... so is getting one-shot by Goob Harvester or lagging to that sea monk... so is getting drawn in by a treasure chest or blood-agroing one of those undead... so is dc'ing. When you expect 10 people all to work flawlessly for 1-1.5 hours, you're tempting fate and asking for a chain reaction that leads to postponing Omega for half a week. Flawless expectations are never comfortable.

Actually, if you take this in context of the argument itself (Using the minimal amount of people v the full 18), the only way you can earn less chips with the minimalist set up is if everyone wipes/times out on their run. Moreover, the fact that I've trioed these zones with pick up members should reflect how little familiarity is necessary.

This thread is about efficiency, and experience tells me people are usually less efficient when they worry. Mistakes skyrocket. Thorny proposed an ideal, but you know it's impractical because of how few shells actually do that (do you even know of an 18-person single-cycle-Omega shell?).

When I had a Limbus LS in full effect, we had nine members gaining 2-3 Chips per session. Mistakes are more likely to the more members you have. Efficiency decreases as you send more members into one zone since no matter how fast you clear the zone, you've lost the opportunity to gain 1-3 additional chips.

[Thorny]

and having to kill all 3 Gigas in NE, which is dealt with by not wasting time getting greedy on item chests.

trio can get all item chests fine, i usually go to NE personally because it's the most irritating zone, if we need to kill melee immune gigas i throw up grav, chainspell bliz3 with full mp, convert, use rest of mp, open 2hr box, use that mp, and it's dead with convert back up and chainspell ready in case i need it

BLM RDM DD also works fine and is slightly smoother, DD just kills the pot and the magic immune gigas

When you expect 10 people all to work flawlessly for 1-1.5 hours, you're tempting fate and asking for a chain reaction that leads to postponing Omega for half a week. Flawless expectations are never comfortable.

When you only skip adamantoise for item chests, the NW group has 35 minutes remaining of a 90 minute zone. This is 38% leeway.
If you take time chest on 1f of SW(I know, shitty coins), you require about 35 minutes of 50. This is 30% leeway.
If you take all item chests on NE, you have about 15 minutes remaining of a 90 minute zone. This is the least, 16.6% leeway. Time can be cut out by skipping item chests.
If you kill everything in the entire zone in SE, you have about 15 minutes remaining of a 60 minute zone. This is 25% leeway. Time can be cut out by skipping 1f/2f mobs & item chests.

It's not -flawless- expectations, and I'm more surprised when we lose a zone than when we win every zone we went to. Losses happen, people make stupid mistakes, d/c, whatever.. but I'd say our win rate is over 90% on plain zones and 100% on omega/ultima. That aside, guess what happens if we lose a zone after splitting that many ways? We still get more chips than you did, more coins than you did, and more mats than you did.

[ZhiGaruda]

Oh god Thorny, that last line, AAAAHHHH I CAN'T STOP, FFFFFFFFFFFF

http://i35.tinypic.com/vjbxj.jpg

[ringthree]

"Let's just bug out, close this thread and call it even, OK? What are we talking about this for?"

"I say we take off and nuke the entire thread from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

[ZhiGaruda]

"Let's just bug out, close this thread and call it even, OK? What are we talking about this for?"

"I say we take off and nuke the entire thread from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

http://cardboardmonocle.com/blog/fxsuits/alien1.jpg

[Wrish]

1. If you're so adamant that it was a personal attack, then why ask if I was making a personal attack?

I wanted to be sure I didn't misread you. And after your response, I'm now positive you held disdain for jamma's ls.

Notice how I mentioned earlier that this is a theme that came out of this thread. I also mentioned specifically that is not fact. It's also the case that LSs with fewer members than the maximum clear Einherjar without trouble using sub NIN. Moreover, your LS should be able to control the buffs your melee receives. In short, as a leader, you should be able to control how many DDs you have and what buffs they receive.

You originally pinpointed the problem of needing /DMG on weak DDs because other shells do fine with /NIN (slower) and with fewer people. But it's strong buffs that enable low-man anything, not shinies on all the DDs (apart from extremes). You downplay this revelation by saying the LS should "control how many DDs you have and what buffs they receive." What about recruitment and know-how? Do we assume the LS still times out after it has access to 5-6 BRDs, 4 CORs, and 4 DNCs? For most shells the bottleneck is recruiting decent players of the foregoing jobs (and sometimes, healers). Then their DD have to adapt to the mix of support jobs they rolled.

The last Einherjar shell I was in absolutely despised me for mentioning bard rotations.

Were they already winning? The reality is good BRDs are the hardest to recruit, and this swapping looks like extra work to some.

For someone whom will shortly complain about minor "risks" in Apollyon, I'm surprised to hear you regard NIN as a gimp subjob.

Gimp was in quotations for good reason. There's a time and place for /NIN, but efficiency in clearing Einherjar is probably not one of them.

Doing two simultaneous events does not "add" to man-hours. If your LS does Einherjar from 3-330PM and at the same time does Byakko(lol?), you're not suddenly adding 30min. You're maximizing the amount of rewards you receive within the same 30min. In short, by removing six members from an event you'll win without their support, you've managed to receive not only an Einherjar feather within 30min, but also TWO light crystals.

Man-hours is the product of "# of players" and "time." Two simul events take 36 people, and across 30 minutes, that's 18 man-hours. With just the Einherjar event, you don't take 30 minutes with all 36 people, so you take less than 18 man-hours. The reward can thus go down without compromise to efficiency.

And is fooling around with light ele's before getting tractored some efficiency technique?

the majority of shells risk loss if they all /DMG and don't go in with full alliances

Also, to suggest that shells risk loss because they do not go in with full alliances and /DMG is to be ignorant of the facts.

What you wrote is different than what I wrote. So you don't say I'm ignorant of the facts. You riled jamma for missing an "if," and now you miss an "if," too.

That's great, but I hope you're not comparing how "idealistic" it is to win with less than 36 members who are sub NIN to this.

As much as Thorny is. Why, wanna take just 12 people to Odin (for 30-member /NIN tiers)?

Actually, if you take this in context of the argument itself (Using the minimal amount of people v the full 1, the only way you can earn less chips with the minimalist set up is if everyone wipes/times out on their run. Moreover, the fact that I've trioed these zones with pick up members should reflect how little familiarity is necessary.

Take that to someone else. I'm not the one with administrative issues who brings 18 to one Apollyon zone. Seems most shells average 3-6 and so does mine. Have you done NW with a pickup BLM, btw?

Efficiency decreases as you send more members into one zone since no matter how fast you clear the zone, you've lost the opportunity to gain 1-3 additional chips.

Here again, efficiency based on man-hours or effort goes up if you clear much faster/easier with a few more people. If you mean to point to the 3-day waiting period as the bottleneck, a better word may be effectiveness, i.e., the # of Omegas you kill in a 4-week period.

[The Blackrose]

"Let's just bug out, close this thread and call it even, OK? What are we talking about this for?"

"I say we take off and nuke the entire thread from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

No fucking shit. And once I finish clearing out a few posts, the hammer's going to be swung a bit.

This is why we can't have nice things, you simpleton fucktards.

R3 wins, yet again.