Einherjar: To /NIN or to /DMG, that is the question

[jammalamma]

When you tell me how to cross lot Odin, then sure. If our goal was to eventually stop doing Einherjer then that would be fine. If windows didn't conflict with our events, that'd be fine too. If you're not into camping shit then the extra 10-15 minutes you save by taking in a full group of Einherjer probably doesn't mean shit to you. Splitting the groups would increase the time it would take us to organize and would make it harder to be flexible when people have to miss runs. Oh, not to mention there would be a need to pull more mules away from shit we're camping that makes us more money.

Yeah, good on paper bad in practice.

[Amastacia]

He wasn't talking about you.

EDIT: At least, I'm pretty sure that first quote was directed towards Jamma. May be wrong.

If I was wrong, then my bad.

Kinda caught up on the whole thing all at once so it didn't look like Jamma stopped posting, while I most certainly did.

[Yugl]

When you tell me how to cross lot Odin, then sure. If our goal was to eventually stop doing Einherjer then that would be fine. If windows didn't conflict with our events, that'd be fine too. If you're not into camping shit then the extra 10-15 minutes you save by taking in a full group of Einherjer probably doesn't mean shit to you. Splitting the groups would increase the time it would take us to organize and would make it harder to be flexible when people have to miss runs. Oh, not to mention there would be a need to pull more mules away from shit we're camping that makes us more money.

Yeah, good on paper bad in practice.

You have much more flexibility in camping HNMs and Einherjar if you have less events to do. You have less events to do if you cap out on items. You cap out on items quicker if work more efficiently towards your goals.

[Chen]

our LS uses:
DD/SAM on tier 1 because it's so easy
DD/NIN on tier 2 because of the higher change of nasty Aoe, but still generally easy
DD/SAM on tier 3 because we need the fast damage to win in time, we try to stun the worst Tp moves, but even if we miss, it's not a big deal, because we usually kill the mobs fast enough.

this has worked for us past slimes & dragons etc. we not filled with relics like some shells but probably as successful, think we're on about 29/30 on einherjar wins atm

[S N K]

If I did it the efficient way, I'd just lot everything and jump servers. But I'm really a nice person.

Didn't you do that already once? >_>

P.S. And for the people unaware, Jamchan is a chick not a dude.

Carry On.

[jammalamma]

Didn't you do that already once? >_>

P.S. And for the people unaware, Jamchan is a chick not a dude.

Carry On.

Nah, I'm too honest to steal stuff.

[enoch]

As someone who has to babysit insane DD's who either /war /sam or /nin depending on their moods, I've come up with a simple rule for those who don't /nin:

I'm only spending a certain amount of MP on you every 3 minutes - you start out fully buffed and if I'm having to cure you too much, you don't get hasted again. Period. Deal with it. Play smart.

Running a parser helps because then you can figure out who's taking damage because they're dealing more damage and who's taking damage because they're just being foolhardy/dumb/etc. The good damage-dealers get Phalanx2'd and a little extra attention, the crap folks get to fend for themselves and they're the first that get killed.

[Arthars]

i get my melees to sj NIN since we have no problems usually to win wings

many people quitted ffxi and my shell dropped from 30 peeps to 20 peeps now

we need a lil luck to beat W3, because not always 20 peep will show up. always ended up with 18

and trust me, for my case, /nin helps because if 2-3 DD die in a 20 man W3, shit is going to be rough and will cause time out.

if you have 30 peeps, enough mages, enough DD to wipe through everything, go for the offensive subs

[Meian]

Most of our gear lists are cleared though. =( Now we just camp shit so other people can't get it pretty much, or to make money.

Then why would the 40+ people stay? To split money between 40+ people? And why still do events involving rare/ex?

Unless this was a woosh...

[Ayn]

You wipe.


Like a piece of shit.

I'm truly saddened that no one quoted this and said "LIKE A BOSS" instead.

Oh well.

[Nishida]

Hahaha..this thread is awesome. I'd just like to point out I never intended for a 4 page debate to start when I called this guy out in the gimp thread.

My point was, I guess, that for him to say that SAM/NIN is disgusting is very onesighted. For someone preaching about being efficient..he should know that the entire reason to sub nin is for efficiency alone. Sure mages can stun..sure mages can cure..but have you ever had to play a mage job? Being a mage with a group of hard headed melee that care more about numbers than their own buffer is so annoying.

Yes it can be done, but that does not mean that it should. My favorite example of why subbing nin is better in Ein is that of a member in my own shell. This member always comes WAR/SAM to Ein and parses the event. I would bargain to say that about 80% of the time he ends up dead at least once per run. Our LS leader tells us we can sub whatever we want, but would greatly prefer nin so as to limit any issues that could arise.

And as others have said..it's not always about fluid spread..there are plenty of mobs in einherjar that would be better suited fighting with shadows up if only to cause less stress on the mages and possibly less death to the melees.

In the end though..people will fight against /nin forever..it's been like this for years now..oh well..

[FailureMidgard]

Completely agree with paragraphs 1 and 3. I don't think Ein is a situation where defaulting to NIN sub is a necessity unless you are certain that given your group or your particular healer, that safety net is not optional.

I agree, but I think defaulting to /sam or sam/war is just as wrong.

In response to paragraph 2, my experience is that skeletons dole out about an equal amount of suck regardless of subjob. They certainly can be problematic, and having dealt with them many a time as both melee and mage, I can't say it ever much mattered what people subbed, stunlocking and killing fast enough were the main factors on smoothness. As for slimes, our stunners were usually pretty on the ball. That's not to say that we didn't get hammered sometimes, but that happened before more people started using offensive subs too.

My entire point was skeletons suck. If all your melee /nin, slimes and such are equivalent to single bats. If they all /sam, slimes are worse than skeletons. On slimes, /nin is universally better, and I think you are flat out wrong if you're arguing against that. Of course, that being said, none of us are psychic, so /shrug, you can't prepare properly.

And, if I'm brutally honest, your side note makes me scratch my head a little. It's certainly possible to ride Hasso the whole time, and I usually did, because only a small fraction of the time would I need the lower recast to help mitigate a substantial amount of damage. What that said to me is that most of the time, smart use of Hasso and Seigan with a better subjob would've made me a more effective DD without a tremendous drawback. And I was usually right. It'd be a bald-faced lie to say that not subbing NIN never got me killed, but I don't think the death count would've been a lot lower in the long run if I had chosen the "safer" route.

I'm not sure how your Ein runs go, I'm a huge advocate of swapping back and forth elsewhere, but in Ein and Dyna, it doesn't seem the least bit worth it to me.

Losses will occasionally happen, I just don't feel that defaulting to a DD sub necessarily causes the loss percentage to rise drastically. And it seems I'm not the only one whose experience agrees. It's not that I won't sub NIN in Einherjar, I just see it as an undesirable choice made out of necessity and not preference.

This is where I disagree the most, and why I think /nin is the "better" choice for Ein, in larger groups at least. It is not possible to time out unless you wipe. It is pretty damn hard to wipe /nin, most definitely harder than /sam.



Anyway, all that said, if you have the support, fuck /nin, I don't even like playing it, but I think it's delusional to say /nin is worse in a safety/winning the run way.

[Seedz]

Jamma is making some good points, he (she?) just needs to accept that /NIN has its uses, and everyone will be happy.

If you have good enough DD to clear wing3 as /NIN, I think there's no reason to not use it. Mages will thank you for making it easier on them on the cure department, and will be able to focus on more important stuff like status ailments. Of course, if you -need- the extra damage that /WAR and /SAM provide, then by all means go ahead and sub that.

[Yubar]

Hahaha..this thread is awesome. I'd just like to point out I never intended for a 4 page debate to start when I called this guy out in the gimp thread.

My point was, I guess, that for him to say that SAM/NIN is disgusting is very onesighted. For someone preaching about being efficient..he should know that the entire reason to sub nin is for efficiency alone. Sure mages can stun..sure mages can cure..but have you ever had to play a mage job? Being a mage with a group of hard headed melee that care more about numbers than their own buffer is so annoying.

Yes it can be done, but that does not mean that it should. My favorite example of why subbing nin is better in Ein is that of a member in my own shell. This member always comes WAR/SAM to Ein and parses the event. I would bargain to say that about 80% of the time he ends up dead at least once per run. Our LS leader tells us we can sub whatever we want, but would greatly prefer nin so as to limit any issues that could arise.

And as others have said..it's not always about fluid spread..there are plenty of mobs in einherjar that would be better suited fighting with shadows up if only to cause less stress on the mages and possibly less death to the melees.

In the end though..people will fight against /nin forever..it's been like this for years now..oh well..

No offense, but that doesn't sound like a good leader if he's just all "come as whatever sub".

[Nishida]

No offense, but that doesn't sound like a good leader if he's just all "come as whatever sub".

It sort of depends. Sometimes she makes it explicit that we need to sub nin, but for stuff like T1 she doesn't really care. Basically a testament to the fact that our support is fine w/ or w/o /NIN DD's..but like I said..she strongly advocates /NIN sub, but she doesn't force anyone to because she knows we'll still clear even if they don't. Our shell is far from bad. We're rank 3 on our server. We get shit done =o

[Darkyrm]

If you have good enough DD to clear wing3 as /NIN, I think there's no reason to not use it. Mages will thank you for making it easier on them on the cure department, and will be able to focus on more important stuff like status ailments. Of course, if you -need- the extra damage that /WAR and /SAM provide, then by all means go ahead and sub that.

Almost exactly what I was going to post so that saves me some typing.

[GavinBandura]

Back when I played and we did einherjar in Demo our DDs would /nin for safety reasons and we'd roll with about 24-25 people max. We had a 95% win rate and would only occasionally lose to a shitty ass t3. Stating linkshells are trying to prove the size of their e-peens by entering with less than 36 is absolutely retarded, I'm sorry. You need to be shot in the face, possibly with a shotgun. You should be able to get a near 100% win record in Einherjar with 24ish people who are good at the game. Taking less people isn't inefficient it's because most linkshells don't have 40+ people on their shell at all times.

[Drex]

/DMG is a crutch for shitty DDs to try to close the gaps and catch up with the big boys
/NIN is a crutch to cover for shitty mages who didn't merit their mp pools to 5000

The correct answer is to sub whm for the best of both worlds, stoneskin and dia for all

(I always advocated /NIN for einherjar - whenever we tried /dmg, we either won easily to the point that we coulda won /nin too, or lost because we had no shadows and got raped by blinkable aoes)

[Nevex]

Tier 1: /SAM all the way. KC DRKs may be an exception since shadows can be helpful against a few bosses.

Tier 2 and 3: /NIN. Not being raped by dragons' body slam > extra damage. You can't always blame stunners if that move goes off, sometimes it just happens.

[Shinryuu]

/DRG bros. Also WAR should /NIN because dualwielding is better in Einherjar. MNK is the best DD there on the waves and should probably /NIN too. Can have SAM DRK DRG have /DMG subs probably as long as your MNKs/WARs are good. DNCs help.