Why are you looking forward to FF14?

[Damane]

I just hope that FFXIV is FFXI -uber timesinks +more rewards. Otherwise its gonna fail for me seriously ¬.¬. The whole Politics about drops SE has is ass. you go fight a mob with 12-18 people and it drops 1 piece of armor... In a system where 1 char can attain multible job/classes, thus raising the demand of said armor pieces constantly, while not adjusting the droprate? yeah ass system seriously.

[Hyan]

"Not the game itself" isn't really accurate. Exploring the world is a part of the gameplay. There is more to a game than the battle mechanics. However, to be more precise, maybe I should have said "exploring the gameplay". The game interest me as long there is something I havent seen, fought or experimented. I get bored when the game has nothing left but grinding (or extremely time consumming objective).

I've done a lot of programming, and because of this, I think have a good idea of what can and cannot be done. Of course, I don't know the exact situation they are in, but I understand the difference between tweaking a script, and adding something that change the gameplay. Many request are unrealistic, while other are easily doable. That said, it's not an excuse for shitty content. If something can't be done, you shouldnt make an half assed implementation. You should find something else instead.

And yes, I agree many solutions that are proposed are flawed and have huge drawback. However, when I propose a solution, I generally try to understand the impact it would have on everyone, and on the amount of time the player will spend doing what (you cant simply hand everything to the players, they will just leave when there is nothing to look forward).

I wonder, how do you determine the content you haven't experienced? I mean, there could be tons of events but they wouldn't differ from each other except maybe aesthetically, or there would be one event that is different each time you do it, or has so many layers to it that it's complicated enough to last for a longer time. Both of these are basically the same thing, except in the first example there's "more" although it's just a difference in quantity. Do you care about that, as long as there's "lots" of it?

I didn't mean the technical side when figuring out solutions to problems. I'm sure most of the stuff players are proposing can be done technical wise, but most of the time if not always it's not practical solution because of issues outside the technical side of the game, and has more to do with balancing more than anything.

The players will always do what is the most efficient. I agree. However, I'm blamming SE for making certain thing much more efficient than other. It wouldn't be hard to tweak xp gain at 75 and make 7 or 8 zone where it's possible to get 20-25k xp/hours. There is virtually no reason to fight monsters in outside area, so you're left with huge zone where nothing happen. Player care about balance up to a certain point, but after this, everything become equals.

I think they already did that, but the methods are most of the time quite unorthodox. MMM for example. You can get pretty damn nice exp there, 20-25k you're talking about, while fighting whatever you feel like fighting, in an instanced area, for small chunks of time. Like everything else, they pretty much took a different route to the problem than what we would expect. They didn't change the kings system, they made Einherjar. Their answer to soloing exp? Besieged and Campaign. Even the job fixes go beyond just tweaking existing abilities, we get stuff like Hasso and Seigan, Yonin & Innin and Afflatus solace & misery.

Is the player really going to cap faster if you hand xp everywhere? I don't think so. Instead of constantly joining merit party for buffer and xp, he would help people for mission or do unpopular content, something he was not doing before. In other word, he would just xp somewhere else.

If we were serious about implementing the idea and had the actual number SE have, I'm sure we could balance the xp gain without having a big impact on the current game.


Also, keep in mind most endgame players don't have capped merit. Some do for all their job, but most only have 1 or 2 jobs maxed (if none). So even if there was a slight boost in xp, the actual impact would be absorbed by the merit system.

The thing is, he would be doing content and at the same time be progressing on some other content as well. There should be incentive for helping out, but it shouldn't clash with other content. That is counter-productive for SE. Some content you do might be unpopular, but there might be content that you'd do anyway and get exp off doing it, thus speeding up the process. Like me, who helps people with missions regardless of getting exp or not, would have capped on merits much more rapidly than if it didn't give any exp. Instead of just grouping giving exp, doing other things would now give exp too.

The mini expansions already presented a system where helpers are rewarded with something, and the mission restrictions are not as severe if you want to help. It however didn't clash with the existing systems, the rewards you could get didn't really speed up the process of finishing the content but offered something else. So, I think SE has already figured out the solution, but like most of the things they do this can be seen in new content, and not so much in old content. Still shows progress, which is one of the reasons for being optimistic about this game. Sandworm and DI are not like 3 kings, and I doubt SE would go back to making 3 kings in XIV if they can present something like SW and DI instead. Events have gotten shorter and more varied, soloing has been made an alternative option, and gamebreaking items have not been implemented in a long time, while job nerfs have been taken over by buffs instead.

I just hope that FFXIV is FFXI -uber timesinks +more rewards. Otherwise its gonna fail for me seriously ¬.¬. The whole Politics about drops SE has is ass. you go fight a mob with 12-18 people and it drops 1 piece of armor... In a system where 1 char can attain multible job/classes, thus raising the demand of said armor pieces constantly, while not adjusting the droprate? yeah ass system seriously.

Having to prioritize is not a bad thing. SE also offered alternatives which only makes players less like copies of each other and more unique. One guy is sporting valhalla breastplate, another has ares cuirass, the third guy likes his aurum cuirass, 4th prefers the adaman hauby. Even if you can't get ares cuirass because you want morrigan body for your blm, you can do ZNM or Einherjar for alternatives.

Of course SE fucked up the itemization for many jobs years ago (elemental staves, hauby, e body, d ring, relics, o kotes, k club), but nothing SE is doing right shows that they would repeat the same mistake again.

[Corresapolonia]

that's a huge thing there - i dont mind leveling slowly, but if i have to sit in the equivalent of jeuno for days on end to level my character, it's gonna be fail.

it'sa all about balance, and wow has hit it as well as a game can. i want a SE FF MMO that doesn't make me angry to be playing it.

my roommate plays WoW. he does that endgame stuff. from what i've seen since 5 months i live here now that WOW is very tactical and needs very very much concetration of button smashing on the keyboard. and if youre saying different youre wrong everyone does that.

but back to the thing i tried to say:
WoW is an excellent game i tried it 3 days at a buddys house and i farmed a bit. like i farm at FFXI and i made like 3500 Gold with a lvl 15 Dranei (is that correct spelled?) in 2 days. it was fun. I'm not sure how many ppl buy Gold in WoW but this is just laughable it is nothing compared to FFXI farming.

man offtopic again!

last try:
it is essentially wrong to compare WOW with ffxi in the "leveling"-progress. sure you lvl up and stuff. but in FFXI you lvl per mob-grind in WoW with Quest-grind.
in FFXIV i know that they will make it a working (not mostly logical lol?) way of playing. it won't be like ffxi except the races. and the spells. weapons name. extrem-chocobos. hmm well okay it's a FF. but it will be okay at the start. i am looking forward to play it no matter what people say. Even when square announces: "No do not go on the servers they have AV'S everywhere we forgot to put them off the game"


one question off-topic though you play wow? my roommate is away for a while but he said that with the last update that came you can now fight the Lich King in 25 PPL raid? though i play FFXI i enjoy watching the one or another Raid in WoW is refreshing.

[Corrderio]

For me it's mostly for a fresh start.

I know SE said they learned from their mistakes, but I'm curious what mistakes those were. Basicly I'm hoping they do the following.

1. No 21+ hour spawns.

2. Jobs that don't need a ton of gear or "situational gear" to be effective.

3. A better reward:effort ratio

4. If they make "ultimate weapon" quests, leave money out of the equasion and instead a series of hard quests. (Sorta like Mythics minus the alexandites maybe?)

5. Being able to log in for an hour or less and make noticeable progress.

6. Not needing a group for storyline quests/missions in order to progress.

I know I'm going to get flamed on some of these, however some things just got annoying. Like poor drop rate on some mobs (Salvage ramparts anyone?) and having to commit hours into some jobs just for a level because they weren't wanted in XP parties.

[Hyan]

I know SE said they learned from their mistakes, but I'm curious what mistakes those were. Basicly I'm hoping they do the following.

I don't think half of those things are "mistakes", really. Different people prefer different things, I guess.

[Corrderio]

I don't think half of those things are "mistakes", really. Different people prefer different things, I guess.

You're right, but since they only said mistakes it's anyone's guess. I'm just hoping one of the mistakes was the time sink needed for pretty much everything and it's more of a get in and get out type of system for endgame.

[Skeeterxi]

Looking forward to it because no MMO I've played after FFXI has captured the epic feeling FFXI did. Leveling to 75 the first time was quite the journey. No MMO has really made me feel like part of the world and community like XI. FFXI gave me a sense of danger when exploring new zones, everything was challenging. Most MMOs you just solo everything except dungeons and raids, I like FFXI because of how social it is. You actually made and kept friends since everyone leveled everything on one character instead of alts. I've added plenty of people on my friends list in other MMOs but they were always more like acquaintances.

I'm basically hoping XIV is as social as FFXI was and not just another solo grinder. If you want to solo play a console rpg.

[Tezz]

I'm looking forward to FF14 because SE delivers the best quality. Although they don't have the best presentation.
I'm actually more curious to see what they have "learned" from FFXI, then most things.
I plan to compare the old & new when i start 14 just to see.

In the end, i'll stick to both until i drop FFXI completely (which, likely, won't be for a long time).

One thing i really want SE to get right is what WoW has recently done. The cross-server grouping. It's the very thing FFXI needs right at this moment to continue to hold onto the thin line it's dangling from.
SE isn't good at adding little things like that though, which is my only concern for FF14.

At the same time, WoW raiding feels like constant dynamis, which is very boring quick, so i do hope there are many things to do in the game world. Instancing all the time sux.

[Destinye]

having to commit hours into some jobs just for a level because they weren't wanted in XP parties.

This was a community mindset and issue. There's nothing wrong with inviting (unwanted job) to exp/merit parties, just it didn't fit into the communities mindset of efficiency.

A lot of what you said aren't mistakes but typical MMORPG game design, just when WoW came out people realized that all MMORPGs should be easy mode. In 2002, the 21+ hour spawn or whatever was typical in many MMORPGs and in most MMORPGs you don't have people sitting around that long, you usually have people passing by and see that it's up and call for backup, which is what SE intended but as we know SE's intentions are never player's intentions.

Read: Ninja, Dancer, Linkshells, HNMs and so on. Just about everything SE intended players spun a different way, remember they didn't think players would use Linkshells in the way we do.

I don't know about you but I can login for an hour and get a ton of shit done that I want to get done. MMORPGs aren't supposed to be "Log in for 30 minutes, make massive fuck ton of progress and log out." That's what offline games are for. MMORPGs are supposed to be a timesink, but as said, once WoW came out people realized every MMO needs to be asseasy.

Needing a group was fine in 2002-2005, once ToAU came out and people got lazy and greedy then it became an issue, which is more of a community issue than a game design flaw on SE's part. They already pretty much said some guildleves will be designed for those who hate to put time into MMORPGs and can do a lot with only 30 minutes of game time. The reward ratio for FFXI was fine, the only isssue people seem to have is not being rewarded for just logging in and doing the event once. MMORPGs don't work that way..till WoW came out at least. I don't know if anyone knows this but video game developers design things a certain way for a certain reason. MMORPG developers design events with harder to obtain gear (low drop rates) so they can keep in check how many enter circulation. For example:

I can do Nyzul twice a week and make a lot of progress (20+ floors) and on said 20+ floors I may or may not get the nyzul gear, but it's not like I've done nothing you know? I can do Salvage for a year and not complete a piece, but yet you still make progress if you're working on a mythic because you'll get a lot of alexandrites. I can do Assaults for a year and hit Captain Rank, which means in the process I got all of my Assault Gear and a Mythic requirement completed.

People just really want to be rewarded for no time investment, it can be spun any way but thinking logically it all comes back to "I sign on I better get rewarded for doing this event for 5 minutes or it's a waste of time." That's how MMORPGs get top heavy and every gear has to be made worthless to counter that. FFXI is the perfect example of having gear that can stay useful no matter what, some people seem to hate this but it's actually pretty good because you work for a year on (Set of gear) and SE releases an expansion that makes said gear worthless after all the work you put into getting it. Most MMOs does this and it's always a pain in the ass because it proves that your time spent didn't mean shit. FFXI may have its "time sinks" but you're rewarded in the end for most you do.

The only mistake I can see that SE made was implementation of HNMs, because people seem to think thats the only thing that exists in this game.

[SilverBreeze]

I have no problem with gear staying useful, but when you have items like Adaman Hauberk that are amazing for 4+ years and the only real way to get it during that time is a HNM that pops once a week, and you have to compete against cheaters for it every week, then there's a problem.

HNMs would not have been a problem if SE could have stopped botters and cheaters, because everyone would have a fair share at the best items. However, when one or two shells on every server literally have Nidhogg on lock, there's a problem. You can say that not everyone needs the item and argue how good it is, but in MMOs, a lot of players want to have the best and be the best, and can put the time in to get said items. To get cockblocked out of those items because some players choose to cheat, and the only way to compete is to cheat as well, is stupid.

A lot of players complain about WoW being easy mode. I never signed on FFXI thinking to get uber in 5 minutes, and I don't expect to do so in WoW either.

To get the gear I wanted on FFXI I had to camp HNMs every week, do Salvage every day, do Nyzul twice a week, this takes hours of work.

To get the gear I wanted in WoW I had to do heroics every day, do raids every week, craft every day, do daily quests every day, this takes hours of work.

Just because you are guaranteed a raid every week and the only way to get screwed out of loot is because of your own performance in WoW doesn't make the game easymode, I think the problem in FFXI is that except for a few rare cases, there wasn't any skill involved, it was luck and praying that you could beat the bots at HNMs that day.

[Ksandra]

I blame this thread btw for having THE MOST EPIC ffxiv dream last night.

Apparently Elvaans turn into huge ass fucking giants when they take enough damage and then just knock everything over.


Also everything is made out of wood.

[Kurp]

I hated having to redo my entire set of gear every few months in WoW. On top of that you were constantly replacing gear from 10 man to 25 man, etc in Wrath expansion. It was somewhat slower in Burning Crusades. I never played the original game so I can't comment on that. The gear carousal was one of the most annoying parts of that game for me.

If you took a few months off, your gear turns to shit and doesn't meet the numbers people want. I'm happy I quit before I had to deal with the gear score shit that people talk about now. Fuck all of that.

FFXI gear options became too limited at end game and you could wear a piece for years. That's too restrictive, but it was somewhat made up for with multiple sets like TP/WS. I hope they can change that somewhat, but yet stay far away from how WoW handles gear progression.

[lamp]

Im looking forward to hearing the music from my starting city/nation for the first, staying up all night figuring stuff out for myself and getting utterly and totally addicted.

Im also looking forward to saving noobs, some of the funniest times i had in ffxi involved me saving noobs in west ronf sporting my level 25 chainmail "Wow man nice armour" oh and screw you kazam keys, i was level 28 before i got to you!.

The innocence and infancy of starting out in FFXI are some of the most memorable gaming experiences i have ever had, something i never could achieve with any other mmo. Hopefully FFXIV will be the one.

[SilverBreeze]

I hated having to redo my entire set of gear every few months in WoW. On top of that you were constantly replacing gear from 10 man to 25 man, etc in Wrath expansion. It was somewhat slower in Burning Crusades. I never played the original game so I can't comment on that. The gear carousal was one of the most annoying parts of that game for me.

If you took a few months off, your gear turns to shit and doesn't meet the numbers people want. I'm happy I quit before I had to deal with the gear score shit that people talk about now. Fuck all of that.

FFXI gear options became too limited at end game and you could wear a piece for years. That's too restrictive, but it was somewhat made up for with multiple sets like TP/WS. I hope they can change that somewhat, but yet stay far away from how WoW handles gear progression.

Pretty much this. WoW replaces gear too quickly IMO, while FFXI replaces it way too slowly.

Near the end though things did get better with the Nyzul Sets, the Salvage Sets, AF+1/Relic+1, etc.

[Hyan]

I have no problem with gear staying useful, but when you have items like Adaman Hauberk that are amazing for 4+ years and the only real way to get it during that time is a HNM that pops once a week, and you have to compete against cheaters for it every week, then there's a problem.

A lot of players complain about WoW being easy mode. I never signed on FFXI thinking to get uber in 5 minutes, and I don't expect to do so in WoW either.

To get the gear I wanted on FFXI I had to camp HNMs every week, do Salvage every day, do Nyzul twice a week, this takes hours of work.

To get the gear I wanted in WoW I had to do heroics every day, do raids every week, craft every day, do daily quests every day, this takes hours of work.

Just because you are guaranteed a raid every week and the only way to get screwed out of loot is because of your own performance in WoW doesn't make the game easymode, I think the problem in FFXI is that except for a few rare cases, there wasn't any skill involved, it was luck and praying that you could beat the bots at HNMs that day.

2 questions to you:

1) What is Einherjar to you?

2) Is there no skill involved in events like Salvage and Nyzul? Good groups can do everything in the time limit, bad groups can do something but not everything- making good groups have the edge. That works as a straight up drop rate boost that benefits good groups while not making it impossible for weaker groups to achieve something.

I realize Kings were a problem, but the game does not revolve around them. The players put too much emphasis on them (and AV) when talking about the endgame as a whole.

WoW is easy because the devs made it easy. FFXI is easy because the devs made the players stronger, and players memorized the encounters up to the point that they weren't hard anymore. Have a new group fight something like Vrtra or Tiamat and they'll get slaughtered in seconds. An experienced group has no difficulty defeating neither. Everything becomes easy once you repeat it enough, but if it's easy for you doesn't mean that it's easy for everyone.

Pretty much this. WoW replaces gear too quickly IMO, while FFXI replaces it way too slowly.

Near the end though things did get better with the Nyzul Sets, the Salvage Sets, AF+1/Relic+1, etc.

Yes, basically the problems from 2003-2004 are still around to this day. Why wasn't they fixed, then? I wonder what the players would like if their elemental staves, haubies, k clubs, e bodies, d rings, o kotes and relics were suddenly nerfed... It'd be the best solution balance wise, but it's not practical. Players only like balance if it benefits them.

Had those changes been made, though, the gear would be replaced much faster than now. Too bad it's the case for only some jobs now (who were kinda forgotten at the time of RoTZ when it came to items, like DRG).

[Therin]

Still not sure why people downplay XI like it is a bad game. . It came out in 2002 originally, for a system which was obsolete in 2005. All things considered, for its time, it was extremely groundbreaking, innovative, and well-done.

I think it's much more accurate to say that XI was a great MMO, in itself. On the other hand, you can certainly say that SE hasn't given it very good support - that's an adequate statement.

[Lucavi]

FFXI was good largely because SE didn't respond to every one of the base's silly demands.

People wanted to stop "monopolies" (aka. not wanting to work as hard as those who do sit around for hours), "fix HNMs" (aka. make Nidhogg pop-able by trading a Fire Crystal to a ???), and "stop RMT" (amazingly, they provided an increase in supply of the most demanded goods for the cheapest possible prices in return for selling gil, which was promptly bought by gil buyers who quickly stimulated the game economy through quick and massive spending).



FFXI's best features (not dumbing the game down) came from SE betraying its base. The only thing that could have made the game better would have been abolishing the R/EX system.

So you loved FFXI because of its often-cutthroat and unfairly-balanced approach to being successful, often involving stepping on the throat of the next guy to get ahead, cheating, and using every availble exploit to succeed? You loved fishbots? MPK? Gardening glitches? Pre-RotZ crafting and money-making exploits? Go capitalism!!

That's just like you, Lief!

I'm not saying I don't want new content but what I'm saying is that I don't want to simply bypass the content. If you were to start in WoW right now, you wouldn't do any raids @ 60 or 70 because there is no point. At least in XI, there is gear all around to be obtained in old content and new. It doesn't nullify it like it does in WoW.

That content -is- old, though. WoW is a 5 year old game. New players want to initially get right into the action, which WoW allows their playerbases to do. If someone gets caught with the WoW bug and wants to know everything about the lore and history, then they are more than free to go back and re-do that content.

FFXI shoves the content down your throat if you want to get into the action by forcing you to replay old content, just as tedious as it originally was. I know many people that I tried to convince to play FFXI when ToAU came out, but didn't want to because they knew that to be competitive or "see" any of the "sights" in the game, they'd have to go all the way through getting Kaz keys, ranking up in missions, getting Sky access, getting Sea access, and so on and so forth.

Give people a choice in their progression. Those old zones in WoW are sitting there for anyone who wants to roll through them. There are a lot of guilds that still ran the old events, especially to gear up level-capped toons for PVP. I remember a ton of guys I used to stomp the yard with that ran 60 Onyxia constantly to get completely pimped out in the old gear for 60 AV, and destroyed their opponents because of it.

Forcing people through the world tour of fetch-and-bitch questing that is CoP isn't some amazing, immersive journey into an exotic land - its a painstaking grind that most people are more happy to tab spam through text to finish.

Onto why I'm looking forward to FXIV: Spears and Jumps, making my newest Paul-Walker look-alike Hyur, and running my own linkshell with my two best friends. That's about the long and short of it.

[Hyan]

That content -is- old, though. WoW is a 5 year old game. New players want to initially get right into the action, which WoW allows their playerbases to do. If someone gets caught with the WoW bug and wants to know everything about the lore and history, then they are more than free to go back and re-do that content.

FFXI shoves the content down your throat if you want to get into the action by forcing you to replay old content, just as tedious as it originally was. I know many people that I tried to convince to play FFXI when ToAU came out, but didn't want to because they knew that to be competitive or "see" any of the "sights" in the game, they'd have to go all the way through getting Kaz keys, ranking up in missions, getting Sky access, getting Sea access, and so on and so forth.

Give people a choice in their progression. Those old zones in WoW are sitting there for anyone who wants to roll through them. There are a lot of guilds that still ran the old events, especially to gear up level-capped toons for PVP. I remember a ton of guys I used to stomp the yard with that ran 60 Onyxia constantly to get completely pimped out in the old gear for 60 AV, and destroyed their opponents because of it.

Forcing people through the world tour of fetch-and-bitch questing that is CoP isn't some amazing, immersive journey into an exotic land - its a painstaking grind that most people are more happy to tab spam through text to finish.

Onto why I'm looking forward to FXIV: Spears and Jumps, making my newest Paul-Walker look-alike Hyur, and running my own linkshell with my two best friends. That's about the long and short of it.

The content is not old for the new player.

The game does not start at the end. WoW might, but FFXI is not WoW. Too bad your friends didn't not realize this. That's a dumb mindset, honestly.

[Lucavi]

The content is not old for the new player.

The game does not start at the end. WoW might, but FFXI is not WoW. Too bad your friends didn't not realize this. That's a dumb mindset, honestly.

I disagree. The game does not start at the end, surely, but the game does not need to bottleneck your progression with countless slow-paced world-traveling fetch-quests through empty, un-used zones before declaring you "fit" to hit some sort of end-game. When you are new to FFXI and hear the lion's share of your more experienced friends groaning and moaning about the prospect of grinding through CoP, something isn't wrong with the them - something is wrong with the game design.

There is a difference between meaningful progression and simple bottlenecking.

[Meresgi]

Something like "phasing" (the world change as you progress) in WoW would take longer to implement obviously, but again, it makes the world much more immersive, but it's something relatively important to tell a story in my opinion and make the world more "alive".

I thought mission cutscenes and Dynamis made the world of FFXI a lot more immersive then the few phased areas of Icecrown. It would have been cool if after taking over an area more was done to it in Icecrown, but the only place that gets a little foothold base is the hill you take for Tirion, the rest of the areas just stop at their final phased state and never really make you feel like you conquered that spot and are helping to make the push.



You can't really even compare WoW and FFXI. WoW is a money making machine, Blizzard makes decisions around what can profit them the most (There's nothing wrong with that), while FFXI was more of a story driven machine. The Devs seemed to do whatever they wanted to get the story across and that was that, if you didn't like how it was presented to you, or what you had to do to experience, you ended up shit outta luck.

Both have their downsides and upsides depending on your play style. Myself I enjoyed the story immensely and felt and still feel kind of sad that WoW has forgotten a lot of it's story telling, and even boss fights now lack that certain feeling when you finally beat them.