Random Cataclysm discussion

[Kaylia]

All we need is Hellscream to come to fireland and yell at us for another 30% to all stats.

[FailureMidgard]

So, am I reading it wrong or does this mean H-Rag's dmg is still reduced, just his HP is untouched? I'm so mad we didn't get to kill it before this

[Katlan]

That's some serious nerfs. at least it means I will no longer need to do terrible random's for my alt's VP each week and can now do an alt raid in 2-3 hours lol

[avelle]

So, am I reading it wrong or does this mean H-Rag's dmg is still reduced, just his HP is untouched? I'm so mad we didn't get to kill it before this

That's how I read it.

[Arvin]

correct.

Sorry about not getting him pre-nerf bros. If it's any consolation, he will probably still be hard as balls. If you're doing the fight right, you shouldn't be taking damage outside of tanks anywho.

Now that I think about it, it'll make P4 a lot easier lol. All those abilities you have to learn to adapt to fast won't do as much damage. Rag will not hit like a truck anymore, but perhaps more like a mini-van.

[Correction]

Well this will make most guilds get to Domo/Rag faster as promised. Kind of surprised the Boss health/dmg buffs were hotfixed in rather than just things like slowing down tornadoes or just reducing health on Rhyo/Beth adds.

[The Stig]

Hm, if I recall, ICC bosses were never nerfed right? They just steadily added the raid buff in 5% increments?

Is this direct nerf preferable, or an ICC buff more preferable to you guys?

[Meresgi]

rogue t13 isn't that bad, but I like t12 better:

T13 is supposed to resemble a bat...... lol

I AM THE NIGHT!

Just needs a cape.

also lol @ the nerfs...jesus.

[Katlan]

ICC style buff left was a better approach, imo, as it still made people need to learn the encounters as they were intended. I don't remember nerfs to ICC bosses, just the personal % buff which made ppl do more dmg, more hp, better heals, ect... but that didn't make the bosses faceroll if you didn't know what to do.

Lots of guilds couldn't kill LK even w/ a 30% buff since it didn't stop stupid. If ICC was current content today, and w/Blizz's current mentality, I could see stuff like:

-Defile spreads slower and happens less often
-Valks move slower and have less hp
-One less add in transition phases as well as their hp being reduced.
-LK dmg and hp reduced by 15-25%
-Spirits do 25% less dmg and you no longer get to laugh as random raid members get blown up

Heroic LK:
-all of the above and shadow traps take longer to detonate and are cast less often

As mind boggling as it is to me, I've done some 10/25 ICC pugs (at current tier) where the group STILL can't kill him. really shows how bad some players are when LK is as faceroll as can be now. But ppl still fuck up on defile and still get blown up by shadow traps left and right. And it's not an "oops" moment that everyone has, its ppl that don't understand the stuff and die to the same stuff over and over again

[FailureMidgard]

correct.

Sorry about not getting him pre-nerf bros. If it's any consolation, he will probably still be hard as balls. If you're doing the fight right, you shouldn't be taking damage outside of tanks anywho.

Now that I think about it, it'll make P4 a lot easier lol. All those abilities you have to learn to adapt to fast won't do as much damage. Rag will not hit like a truck anymore, but perhaps more like a mini-van.

I mean you still have to dodge stuff kinda, but World in Flames is now (90+90)*.75=135k dmg to stand dead center on one. You could always survive an edge hit. Past that, the transitions (on 10m) are still the worst part, particularly the 2nd with a bad person getting the debuff and having to run, this makes it significantly easier. On top of that, it makes the P3 DPS burn significantly easier (we were currently unable to kill Scions before having to transition, now we should easily be able to, which is going to be ~1.5m less dmg to do during P3, as well as 2 less people having to run since debuffs usually go out for a final time right after we transition/as we lust). You already mentioned P4 (esp the transition), as right now we seem to have deaths every single time waiting for the first breadth of frost to spawn. Giving an extra ~3-4 seconds to everyone before that happens is kinda nice I think.

Finally, tank dmg still seems like a decently big deal in 10m, and we've had several tank deaths due to the fact we have to 2heal and split the 2healers and tanks.

Anyway, I agree you shouldn't take dmg if you do the fight right - however, we generally wipe to people not doing the fight right, and now they can survive and be healed!


As for the ICC shit vs this, I prefer ICC however, I'd prefer an inverse ICC more than anything (-5% boss HP/dmg per stack, once per month or w/e it was up to 25%). I like DPS #s to stay the same (which is why I prefer this over the buff) , but I like a slow increase rather than "lol here you go everyone can do it now".

[Edit: I messed up and its -15% heroic not 25...similar difference though, Engulfing is still survivable dead center assuming you have any resist at all (need like -5k on 153k dmg).]

[Kaylia]

ICC style buff left was a better approach, imo, as it still made people need to learn the encounters as they were intended. I don't remember nerfs to ICC bosses, just the personal % buff which made ppl do more dmg, more hp, better heals, ect... but that didn't make the bosses faceroll if you didn't know what to do.

Lots of guilds couldn't kill LK even w/ a 30% buff since it didn't stop stupid. If ICC was current content today, and w/Blizz's current mentality, I could see stuff like:

-Defile spreads slower and happens less often
-Valks move slower and have less hp
-One less add in transition phases as well as their hp being reduced.
-LK dmg and hp reduced by 15-25%
-Spirits do 25% less dmg and you no longer get to laugh as random raid members get blown up

Heroic LK:
-all of the above and shadow traps take longer to detonate and are cast less often

As mind boggling as it is to me, I've done some 10/25 ICC pugs (at current tier) where the group STILL can't kill him. really shows how bad some players are when LK is as faceroll as can be now. But ppl still fuck up on defile and still get blown up by shadow traps left and right. And it's not an "oops" moment that everyone has, its ppl that don't understand the stuff and die to the same stuff over and over again

Wtf are you talking about. Increasing your hps, damage and hp by 30% or decreasing the monster dmg and hp by 15% is the same kind of shit.

The only mechanics they changed is Alysrazor's tornado on normal, which for a reason I don't know, is something most pugs can't deal with. The only thing it will do is make Fireland easier for pug.


I still see people wiping to mechanics if they don't know the fight the same way people wiped to various stuff in ICC.

[Correction]

ICC didn't need a lot of nerfs due to the way players were scaling with gear by the time they were reaching Putricide. Melee was pushing the crit cap, casters were pushing the haste cap, to say nothing of how good ArPen was getting at that point, etc. With players not struggling on mana conservation, DPS checks or tank threat, the only real challenges came from 'boss gradually killing everyone faster' mechanics like P3 Putricide, tombs on Sindy, Valithria adds and keeping tanks alive through the zonewide -dodge debuff.

[Mortilox]

means I will no longer need to do terrible random's for my alt's VP each week and can now do an alt raid in 2-3 hours lol

You know, I thought the exact same shit when t11 nerfs hit.

I was wrong.

[niwaar]

Wtf are you talking about. Increasing your hps, damage and hp by 30% or decreasing the monster dmg and hp by 15% is the same kind of shit.

The only mechanics they changed is Alysrazor's tornado on normal, which for a reason I don't know, is something most pugs can't deal with. The only thing it will do is make Fireland easier for pug.


I still see people wiping to mechanics if they don't know the fight the same way people wiped to various stuff in ICC.

I think they were saying that we are living in an era of WoW where its even more about the casual than we were in ToC and ICC. That if back then, we would be seeing mechanical nerfs as well as damage ones.

Also remember they said they are going to "begin" with the nerfs this week. Meaning they plan on toning down at least one of the two modes even more sometime in the future. This is not a "if these aren't good enough" they flat out said they were going to start the nerfing of the content, so we are not done seeing these nerfs. With the 25/15% dmg/health nerfs to everything now, the places we will see further nerfs is in the base mechanics of the encounters. ie, the number of adds spawned in each phase of Beth, Rhyo and Rag, the duration of the tick of Lava Waves and the height of the knock up on Magma Traps.

The old adage of "you can't heal through stupid" is what we will see eventually proven wrong when these mechanics are toned down so those with no brains, high lag, and high mental latency can accomplish this stuff. I foresee Firelands normals being toned down to where the new "LFR/Easy Mode" raids will be at the start of t13.

[Kaylia]

The old adage of "you can't heal through stupid" is what we will see eventually proven wrong when these mechanics are toned down so those with no brains, high lag, and high mental latency can accomplish this stuff. I foresee Firelands normals being toned down to where the new "LFR/Easy Mode" raids will be at the start of t13

But we were healing through stupid all the time in ICC with the 30% buff. That's what I don't get. Even if hey nerf the current fight, they are still going to be difficult for the average players (especially hard mode).

Being 30% stronger in ICC let you ignore many mechanics. Just take Saurfang for example where you needed a perfect coordination between member early on, that turned into a zerg with everybody ignoring the mechanics. Or rotface that was just zerged down.

[Siniroth]

All these tier sets save perhaps Warlock are making me dread what Priest is going to look like.

[aurik]

Shit is super easy in firelands now.

[Siniroth]

Is it to the point where if my guild is only doing normals and 3 healing, I could literally reforge out of even more spirit? I could already drop to 1500 as disc and have minor problems on specific fights if people were being slow (no you can't stay in majordomo's leap, fuck you learn to move), sounds like now I could drop every bit of spirit I can reforge out of.

[Guitarman]

Rag's meteors aren't fatal anymore on normal. If that gives you any idea.

[Arvin]

7/7 HM clear in .. I think 2 hours? maybe less? lol