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  1. #1

    magic users and video games today

    this isn't related to any one particular game but many I've played over the past few years in many RPGs magic users are becoming less and less effective compared to their melee counter-part.

    Even going back to older RPGs I use to play. Games like FF6 where genji glove/offering was king of x8 9999 damage

    in Chrono Trigger it was all about rainbow sword, confuse, robo's uzi-punch and Ayla's Triple Kick

    Xenosaga games were pretty bad, magic costing MP(consumable source) only to be completely and utterly out damaged by physical attacks that were free

    I think it goes without saying at the state FFXI has been in for years now, mages still have their niche uses

    again in FF13, by design the commando role(physical) is designs to deal much higher damage then the Ravager(magic)

    I'm now playing White Knight Chronicles and after reading up on some builds for high end play: it is ALL about melees killing bosses before a magic user can even prepare to do their best damage(which is still less then the melees who do so quickly)

    I could go on and on with games I've played lately that have this same power difference between magic users and melees, but I have few examples where magic users over-power the melees. What gets me is how many of these games put so much emphasis the power of magic and how wars are started over obtaining magic so that one could control the world.... only to have the final battle ended purely through swords.

    is it intentional design by game makers these days? or a huge oversight of unintended melee damage growth scaling at ill proportional rates compared to magic scaling.

    It's something that's been on my mind as a gamer for awhile, and wonder if people share my thoughts or wanna add other insight into this. I'd appreciate any input.

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    play DnD 3.0

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    Isn't magic really helpful in FFXIII for staggering combined with physical attacks?

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    I tend to agree that it's a trend in the end game of games these days, but too lazy to cite examples atm. While you're looking at it from a developer/balance perspective, it may also be the case that the players themselves also prefer to play melee characters in certain games and spam attacks, which is often easier than selecting spells from a lengthy list as the game progresses (and people get into lazy mode). Personally, melee or mage, am starting to see most games go the route of developing a main character, in RPGish fashion, in a variety of non-"RP" titles. AC2, Red Dead, come to mind. There are tons now though.

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  8. #8

    Not that this isn't true for a lot of games, but Commando's can be used for magic with Ruin/Ruinga and Ravagers can be physical with the -Strikes. Its more nonelemental vs. elemental than physical vs. magical.

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    In pretty much all MMORPGs, magic users are almost always more powerful then their melee counterparts.

    Ironically, I think FFXI is the one exception to that rule.

  10. #10

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyis. View Post
    In pretty much all MMORPGs, magic users are almost always more powerful then their melee counterparts.

    Ironically, I think FFXI is the one exception to that rule.
    only because the paradigm shifted

  11. #11
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    Diablo II wants a word with you lol :D

    I see your point but then again the power of casters is the ability to do things with little to no gear. Take a RDM in FFXI for example, they can solo insane things with HQ staffs and merits.

    Diablo II the melee were almost useless because being up in the opponents face sucks and with things like Iron Maiden being cast on a whim it was very easy to die.

    Also one thing to consider is that mana, once used, can't do much yet a sword remains sharp.

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    If you are really serious about thinking about this, it is a waste of your brainpower. When you talk about doing damage, "melee" and "magic" are the essentially the same thing, only separated by aesthetics and rules which vary completely from game to game(series to series). (Such difference in rules can also be applied between "melee" graphic attacks - like Weapon Skills in FFXI).

    What is the more interesting question is speed vs power(in strategy games, to be specific). Haste is almost always overpowered, no matter the game. (It is all about the "economy of actions.") Magic-aesthetic attacks are sometimes shown to be slow, but powerful. Melee attacks are shown to be faster. However speed increase often comes from magic. (But like I said, it could very well be a "physical ability" since magic is just a skin.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRP View Post
    If you are really serious about thinking about this, it is a waste of your brainpower. When you talk about doing damage, "melee" and "magic" are the essentially the same thing, only separated by aesthetics and rules which vary completely from game to game(series to series). (Such difference in rules can also be applied between "melee" graphic attacks - like Weapon Skills in FFXI).

    What is the more interesting question is speed vs power(in strategy games, to be specific). Haste is almost always overpowered, no matter the game. (It is all about the "economy of actions.") Magic-aesthetic attacks are sometimes shown to be slow, but powerful. Melee attacks are shown to be faster. However speed increase often comes from magic. (But like I said, it could very well be a "physical ability" since magic is just a skin.)
    A long time ago on the Diablo II forums someone was quoted in saying this and it has yet to lose any value and still remain true through all these years...

    "Damage is king, but speed kills"

  14. #14

    I have to disagree with FF6.
    Yes Genji Glove+Offering was able to deal up to 8 x9999 damage but you'd need either incredibly high levels or 8 Ultima Weapons in the GBA remake, neither of them being practical options.
    Besides, only few characters could pull this combo off (Terra, Celes, Locke and Edgar only I think?).

    Ultima caps at 9999 damage ridicolously early, targets all enemies, bypasses any defense and can combine with Economizer, Quick and Samantha's Soul for practically guaranteed 9999 x4 damage. Other than Umaro, every character has access to it.

    Even other minor spells like Meteor and -ga ones can do incredibly high damage quite early (I think morphed Terra can do 9999 with most spells very early in the game too).

    Add the fact that FF6 has the infamous Vanish+Death combo available and I'd say it's out of the question that melee>magic in that game.

    But yes, usually melee>magic due to speed and damage cap reasons, but the more recent FF games started to break this trend.
    Black Mage is sickeningly powerful in FFXII International version: Even without a dedicated setup other than elemental staves equipped you're looking at 30,000 damage Firaga/Blizzaga/Thundaga against anything weak to them long before the final dungeon becomes accessible. In comparison, melee attacks with the strongest weapons available at that point barely do 4000 damage.
    By the end of the game melee does better than magic, but most non-bosses are still oneshotted by either regardless.

    FFXIII's Hope and Vanille can do insane damage with Ruin and with Last Resort/Death if you switch to COM x3 during the animations (Guaranteed 999,999 damage with Death if you make use of buffs and debuffs, Last Resort can probably score something like 8x 120000~).

    FFT deserves a mention, since CT5 Holy is one of the most game-breaking things ever seen in a game.
    Same goes with FFTA2's Red Mage/Summoner+Blood Price Vieras.

  15. #15
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    The thing I think you're missing about magic users is their utility. Sure, you can compare magic damage versus melee damage, and of course melee damage is going to come out on top, because damaging magic is only a subset of magics abilities. You're forgetting magic users can also heal, buff other characters (boosting their melee damage/speed), debuff enemies and other miscellaneous utilities (Teleport, warp, etc.) If you think about it in that sense, it'd be stupid for magic to do more damage than melee characters, because all melee characters can do is deal damage. Even taking into consideration that melee characters usually have higher defense (I say usually because... paladins.) when the only uses are smashing things and getting smashed, I would sure hope they'd be better than magic. The phrase 'Jack of all trades, but king of none' comes to mind.

    Also, FF6 fuck your genji glove/offering. Be a man go with Seltzer's Loaded Dice and Offering, it frees up a relic slot (I usually have marvel shoes in the other slot, but I think there's something better that's evading memory atm.) and is fuckdiculous damage, from the instant you get it, plus I'm 99% sure that since dice have their own damage formula, the attacks are unblockable and barrier piercing, but don't quote me on that.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LinktheDeme View Post
    only because the paradigm shifted
    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH:::snif:: heh heh he...

    no really, dragon age origins? My bitch will hack you to pieces...

  17. #17

    Quote Originally Posted by Scritch View Post
    Not that this isn't true for a lot of games, but Commando's can be used for magic with Ruin/Ruinga and Ravagers can be physical with the -Strikes. Its more nonelemental vs. elemental than physical vs. magical.
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  18. #18
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    Oh yeah, shit, I didn't even mention elemental magics that let you adapt to situations way quicker. Sure, a game might have elemental equipment and stuff, but it's rare that you can change equipment in battle, or that you'll have a weapon of every element, OR that even if you did, that their raw attack power isn't trumped by stronger weapons anyway.

  19. #19

    I definitely think magic is useful, just not for attacking stuff. When it comes to support or healing, magic is definitely the way to go (items can cover this, but it depends on the game how many resources you get).

  20. #20

    Quote Originally Posted by TheShadyMan View Post
    The thing I think you're missing about magic users is their utility. Sure, you can compare magic damage versus melee damage, and of course melee damage is going to come out on top, because damaging magic is only a subset of magics abilities. You're forgetting magic users can also heal, buff other characters (boosting their melee damage/speed), debuff enemies and other miscellaneous utilities (Teleport, warp, etc.) If you think about it in that sense, it'd be stupid for magic to do more damage than melee characters, because all melee characters can do is deal damage.
    not in all games, in some cases you have classes almost devoted to offensives magic.

    and even if a character has utility spells, why must they use a limited consumable source(MP) to deal out inferior damage to someone who does not use a consumable source?

    Alot of what you said leads to the problem more, if support/utilities spells are powerful (more so when backing up melee damage) then it compounds the issue making melee the only efficient means of damage and leaving magic always as inferior. I'd also like to add that there are games out there where melee characters are the primary debuffers with skills that can weaken or disable enemies.

    FF13 was interesting since there is no MP, so this issue isn't so out line or out of balance, my confusion there is how the characters make a big deal out of the gaining magic powers... when they're attacks do more damage already @_@? ravager(magic) of course has it's use in building up the chain gauge which is very important

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevex
    FFT deserves a mention, since CT5 Holy is one of the most game-breaking things ever seen in a game.
    went looking for a video of this on youtube and saw it, when I played it I never did anything like that, and yeah that's pretty sick/OP
    but speaking of FFT... I hated that game it was too easy in so many ways. I just remember running around as orlandu using his all sword skills and just one-shotting everything but bosses.

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