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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaogaostegosaurus View Post
    I noticed (or think I did) that overpower seems to register its hit either once the animation starts or at least earlier than the animation implies. I thought for sure I just woke up a sleeping mob a few times since the sleep animation landed before overpower's but it didn't.

    Anyone able to corroborate that?
    Noticed this as well, the Overpower-animation would finish and the damage would pop up a good while after I saw the sleep spell land, yet it didn't wake the mob up.

    I suppose it could also be that, as said, the actual sleep doesn't hit the mob untill riiiight as the animation finishes.

  2. #182
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    I really enjoyed MRD in the beta. Once you get butcher block at 30 it took off in terms of fun. I'm just so afraid that enough people will cry at PLD not being the all powerful tank and MRD won't be that useful in terms of tanking and dps'ing. I don't want to take it to 50 for nothing.

    I thought about leveling gladiator as well but I really think the time would be better spent on another role.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    You would have got killed tanking on anything but Paladin or Monk in FFXI too (or Ninja, but ignoring due to complete damage avoidance not being the same as mitigation and HP). Then 2h update happened. Even XI, a terrible game by all rights and whose many successes were pure accidents forced into fruition by the players and not the dev team, had DPS tanks.

    So while I get that in 2005 turtling up and never losing hate was cool, it's 2013 and that's boring as fuck and no one does that shit anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    I think the worst part is you are too dumb to realize that I'm talking about 2004 era blood tanking and very clearly transition to 2008 era DPS tanking. Everyone else got it, everyone else had the conversation about it. I never even claimed to play WoW in the era discussed because like my example, even XI (the worst of all games) moved away from such a bad system. So if you'd like to discuss the merits of DPS tanking or being a turtle who sits there and gets shit on, be my guest. I'm not going to hit the dorito like the rest of the pussies who ride the feeltrain but I will quote some jack ryan.

    get off my plane.
    I think his point was that you dismissed early ninja tanking because of complete damage avoidance through shadows, and then proceeded to pretend that "DPS tanks" after the 2h update weren't doing the same exact thing.

    If you're dismissing ninja then you have to dismiss all the DPS tanking that followed later, or if you're acknowledging the DPS tanks you need to acknowledge ninja tanking earlier (which usually was geared for dps also). You can't have one but not the other. You could probably say early ninja tanks were inferior DPS tanks though, since they might not have had the correct DPS philosophy in their mind.

  4. #184

    except the discussion wasn't about ffxi, just a minor sidenote into terrible games getting it right. if that's what you got out of that, don't bother reading it again just keep moving on.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    except the discussion wasn't about ffxi, just a minor sidenote into terrible games getting it right. if that's what you got out of that, don't bother reading it again just keep moving on.
    This sounds eerily familiar to another thread that was split off from a bigger thread, except the sides are now switched, lol. I understood your maint point, and what you were really saying. He was just specifically nitpicking the discrepancy in your ffxi recollection. Another discrepancy that I didn't bring up was how non-DPS turtle tanks were still widely used, and very effective, for a lot of the difficult content even after the 2H update. I believe we were figuring out exactly how hate works at that point though, so gearing up for damage mitigation through not shadows and being smart about how you generate hate was something you could plan around.

    Personally, I liked how some content was easier with a DPS tank and some was easier with a turtle tank.

  6. #186

    I can't think of one fight since 2008 where you need a Paladin other than a handful of Voidwatch/Legion fights. I don't know about all of the stuff in the SoA patch, but I do know that the people actually beating content are still running 6+ songs, 4 rolls DD parties so if there's a Paladin in there his job is holding adds (like it was in the Voidwatch/Legion fights). I only mention these because you need a Paladin to do them, but not to actually kill the boss.

  7. #187
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    The point was that there was really no time in (75-era) XI where DPS tanks were tanking Things That Matter without heavy reliance on damage avoidance via Utsu/Seigan, and XI's damage avoidance mechanics are vastly different than pretty much every other game ever, so XI is not a good game to reference if you want to talk about DPS tanking.

  8. #188
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    ^ And thank God nobody copied them.

  9. #189

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshiin View Post
    I really enjoyed MRD in the beta. Once you get butcher block at 30 it took off in terms of fun. I'm just so afraid that enough people will cry at PLD not being the all powerful tank and MRD won't be that useful in terms of tanking and dps'ing. I don't want to take it to 50 for nothing.

    I thought about leveling gladiator as well but I really think the time would be better spent on another role.
    I think they're just as effective as each other, but MRD is just a lot more fun to play.

  10. #190
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    my favorite class by far, very fun. second wind and keen flurry seem like great cross stats to me because of MRD native HP% and parry abilities, any other cross skills that make the job better?

  11. #191
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    In no particular order...

    Flash (though at least one person here will tell you otherwise), Provoke, Convalescence, Invigorate, Internal Release, Raging Strikes, Straight Shot, Featherfoot, Hawk's Eye.

  12. #192

    Current bar is: Second Wind, Featherfoot, Internal Release, Provoke and the fifth is where I would rotate Awareness, Convalescence (currently doesn't effect abilities, not sure if wording is wrong or ability is bugged), Mantra, or Haymaker (depending on how that system works).

    Also discussing actual Marauder stuff is silly, the classes don't really exist in this game. They are an illusion! Warrior onlies.

  13. #193
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    Mantra only works on non-self targets I'm told, so I can't see that being useful ever for a MRD/WAR.

  14. #194

    To use on anyone who needs it? If I generally don't need the fifth slot for anything else, putting an instant cast ability that I can use to benefit the glass cannons around me then I don't see the issue. I never said it was great, but I can see myself using it more often than say, Awareness. Depending on how the system works in final release, I will probably have Haymaker on though.

  15. #195
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    Your insistence on not setting Flash is retarded to the point where you'd rather set a never-useful skill like Mantra?

    Look at all these slept adds around me! Oh but I've been cured a lot so they're going to go after the healer! Sure wish I had Flash set...

  16. #196
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    To be fair he could be planning on rolling with a THM/BLM constantly so sleeping adds wouldn't necessarily be important if they are gonna spam AoE. The only issue with holding multiple adds for AoE would be TP depletion but Churchill has made it clear from the start that he plans on always having a BRD or two with him for fulltime Paeon so really Flash would only be a detriment as it does no damage to contribute to the AoE-fest and honestly has a pitifully small range so if you get any Ranged or Mage adds you won't be hitting them anyway.

  17. #197
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    Mantra wouldn't add anything to the AoE-fest either, but since this is a hypothetical that will probably never occur, I'll leave it alone. I still stand by my insistence that Flash > Mantra in all situations.

  18. #198

    ignore me

  19. #199

    If Flash becomes a necessity for something, then I'd equip it.

    However.

    Adds by nature are trash mobs (and thus can be hard CC'd by sleep, reliably). Trash mobs can be tanked by a WHM, I wouldn't doubt there are situations where we purely rely on a WHM tanking a room similar to Cutter's Cry in 1.0 or tanking specific mobs (if you were balls and didn't PUSH!) like golems in Darnus. I wouldn't doubt there are situations where BLM has to tank a mob like Chirada or that there are mobs like Chimera where Paladin is clearly a better choice for the boss but maybe Warrior is better throughout the dungeon, leaving you in a situation (since you can't change jobs) where maybe your Monks tank the fight, who knows.

    The overarching point is that having to sleep mobs, at least from everything we've seen in 1.0 and now in ARR, implies that there is a dysfunction already present within your party. There wasn't a single instance in any dungeon where I've had to sleep anything in 2.0 and there certainly wasn't in 1.0. If we do have to sleep them, Flash is probably not going to grab all of them because of its range where Steel Cyclone or Overpower will. Overpower is enough to take hate from pretty much anything because it's almost impossible to not tank on a tanking class. So yeah, if I find a use for it in specificdungeonx, then it'll get put on the bar. I'll use literally any other utility (and like I said, likely Haymaker) before then.

  20. #200

    Flash is not necessary at all, but it is nice to have. The main reason I use Flash is when I'm pacified after Berserk and I want to do something productive rather than wait around.

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