What is the definition of skill and low manning in end game?

[Kiyara]

I didn't see anywhere to post this so I posted in the ffxi advanced discussion. This is concerning all the end game events that have to do with skill and low manning. What is the definition of skill? Is it killing a mob with 30+ people (i.e. throwing bodies at it till it dies)? Is it you can claim Nidhogg? What is the definition of low manning an end game mob? 6 people? 12 people? 18? 24? These are some of the answers I get from people on different forums and in game and I'm starting to wonder if this is just straight BS or am I living in a different world? I know this is sounds stupid but seems the majority of the people I find these answers from answer all very similiarly. So maybe I'm the odd ball one. I figured low manning was killing like say Jailer of Faith with 6 or killing Tier 3 VNM with 8. Also with skill, I figure it's the definition to adapt to each and every mob or situation on the ball. Like I said I know this sounds dumb, but I'd like to hear people's response. Thanks.

[Byrthnoth]

It is exactly what it sounds like. Low-manning is killing things with the a low number of people. The exact number varies for each NM, and a variety of low numbers may be considered low-man.

For instance, my friends killed Lord Ruthven with 4. He's a pretty badass NM and is obviously designed to be taken down with two parties. That was a low-man kill.

Another friend duoed Lord Ruthven with an Anni RNG. That's also a low-man kill.

If you're pushing something to the lower end of what's realistic, then it's low-man.

[Lyramion]

Skill is when you bring a setup where when 1 part fails - everything else also fails. Aka no room for errors.

[Sobie]

If you're pushing something to the lower end of what's realistic, then it's low-man.

I think this definition is perfect. It defines low manning to a tee, without being arrogant or giving an overall "suck less" attitude.

[Francisco]

For me, low-manning is usually 6, sometimes up to 8 if you want a specific job (usually THF).

A party of PLD, MNK, WHM, RDM, BRD, COR can kill a lot of stuff. If you're gonna add a 7th or 8th, it's usually THF for TH and BLM for extra damage.

[Thorny]

The ideas have been addressed, so I'll just throw out some numbers that i'd consider lowman.

Anything in sky(sans kirin): 2-3 max
Kirin: 6-8
Anything in sea(sans JoL): 2-3 max
JoL: 9-12
Base Limbus Zone: 2-3 max
Central Apollyon 1-3: 4-5 max
Omega: 4-6 max
Ultima: 5-7 max
T1 Ein: 8-10
T2 Ein: 10-12
T3 Ein: 14-16
Odin: 12-14
Fafnir/Nidhogg: 4-6
Adamantoise/Behemoth: 1
Aspid: 4-5
KB: 4-5
SW/DI: 6-7
Dynamis-Bastok/Jeuno/Sandy Win:5-6
Dynamis-Windurst Win:6-7
Dynamis-Bastok/Jeuno/Sandy Full Clear:7-10
Dynamis-Windurst Full Clear:12-14
Dynamis-Glacier Win:8-9
Dynamis-Xarc NM farming: 2-3
Dynamis-Xarc farming: 6-7
Dynamis-Xarc win: 9-10
Dynamis-Xarc Atst: 8~
Dynamis-Bubu/Valk/Qufim Win: 8-10
Dynamis-Tav farming: 8-10
T1-T2 VNM: 2 max
Krabkatoa: 2-3
Lord Ruthven: 3-4
Blobdingnag: 7-8
Orcus: 6-7
Verthandi: 5-6
Yilbegan: 5-7

Obviously, with 80 cap, some of these have already or will drop.. and even more at 90. This is by no means a complete list, nor am I saying other people won't consider more still lowmanning as shit's subjective. It's simply a guideline for what are minimalistic numbers for many of these events. I don't personally consider pinning lowmanning as much as cheating, so I used nonpinning numbers for VNM. Obviously if pinning is involved, they're all 1-2 except for yilbegan and verthandi.

[orson]

Thorny are you usually just doing most really low man stuff AKA 2-3 with Rdm for the most part?

I think the purpose of lowman to be time efficient. Certain events like Limbus are far far more efficient if you split that group of 12 into 2-3 zones. IMO that's the purpose of lowmanning not necessarily about being challenged. The opposing thing is if you're splitting up a group and total time of individual spent to achieve the same goal is more than if you just stayed together then you need to go back, practice/skill up/merit/gear up/etc. Most lowman strategies are something that will require you to achieve a certain level of gear and then just being able to control the given situation, consistency and reaction speed is the only real thing that is remotely skill in FFXI.

Actually speaking of lowman 9-12 JoL. I've never done JoL with probably less than 18 just because we usually had enough people wanting to come but bare bones I was thinking 2 tanks, brd, whm, rdm, 2-3 DDs, Cor, 3 Blm? Just adding more DDs to speed it up.

[FailureMidgard]

Fafnir 6 isn't anywhere near lowman! 3-4 max would be lowman. We were doing it with shitty mules with 6 at 75. Rest looks reasonable.

[Thrustie]

I think lowmanning is somewhat based on the composition of your party, too. Sure 2 skilled Rdm/Nin's can duo Krabkatoa or something. 2 skilled Rdm/Nin's can duo just about anything. But if a Rdm, a Brd and 2 DDs accomplished the same feat, I would still think of it as "lowmanning" if we're talking about a mob the majority of the playerbase wouldn't attempt without 6+.

[Belkin]

I'd say skill during low man operations is knowing how to handle yourself, knowing the way around your macros, having a general knowledge of game mechanics and being able to handle the pressure of lots of things going wrong (usually at the same time). I've seen some people low manning things that pretty much just panic when something goes wrong and they end up wiping. But at the same time, I've seen some complete retards that end up holding a mob because of dumb luck. For example, a PLD holding Tiamat will lose hate when he is 10% HP because he is terrible. Tiamat will go for a BLM or RDM, during which time the PLD has a chance to heal to full. Sometimes newbs have "skill" but its completely luck based. I dislike that aspect of the game =/

[Panthera]

There is a spectrum.

Alliancing, for lack of better words, is where you take the maximum amount of people the event is designed to support, possibly with an outside party, like some groups used to do with Kirin way back in the day.

At the absolute other end of the spectrum if "1 part fails - everything else also fails. Aka no room for errors," as Lyramion said; the bare minimum number of people.

Consider though that there are shades of gray. In some fights, I think you can have an extra body or two and still call it "low manning." This is relative to the scale of the fight you're doing. I just don't think there's "soloing" and "everything else."

I think the litmus test is how long it takes you to do the event. Soloing and duoing are notoriously long and drawn out affairs. 1 extra person might provide a safety net, but the event might still take awhile. Alliancing can destroy an event very quickly. If an alliance can do what you're doing in half the time or much less than it's taking you, you're low-manning.

[Nightfyre]

I think the purpose of lowman to be time efficient. Certain events like Limbus are far far more efficient if you split that group of 12 into 2-3 zones. IMO that's the purpose of lowmanning not necessarily about being challenged.

I'd say this varies from person to person. Getting top-tier gear isn't as much of a priority for me as having fun killing shit is, and I have more fun in situations where I'm being challenged. Thus, I gravitate to small shells and lowman situations; throwing bodies at something bores the living shit out of me. Gear facilitates these situations, but hey, I can gear up and lowman at the same time. The increased efficiency is a bonus to me.

To expand on the skill discussion, being able to recover from a bad situation is one of the things I look for in skilled players. Damn near anybody can play well when everything's going as planned, but if a bad situation arises lesser players will fall apart.

[Snick]

Often times, larger shells throwing bodies at shit ends up taking LONGER cause people will insist on waiting for everyone, and then since they're usually using some sort of point system, fucks everyone over by having to do bids or whatever.

Not that I'm bitter or anything~

Edit: Sorta was in reply to Nightfyre, which he knows EXACTLY WHAT SHELL I'M TALKING ABOUT D:

[orson]

I agree that usually lower man groups are funner most of the time. I think that's usually more due to the fact that more often than not you're working with a group friends that you can really rely to do their best and not fuck around. The more people you bring the more likely you'll have some asshat fucking the dog or screwing something up.

With something that is more challenging it can be more fun but I notice that feeling only lasts for a very short time really because after a while everything becomes routine. After a certain point nothing even lowman should even be challenging unless something is unreliable and there's a fairly high chance of wiping or out right losing. That's why I can understand people who enjoy beating things under less than optimal or unreliable conditions but to me I'd rather have a sure thing that is a reliable and timely kill.

[Nightfyre]

Often times, larger shells throwing bodies at shit ends up taking LONGER cause people will insist on waiting for everyone, and then since they're usually using some sort of point system, fucks everyone over by having to do bids or whatever.

Not that I'm bitter or anything~

Edit: Sorta was in reply to Nightfyre, which he knows EXACTLY WHAT SHELL I'M TALKING ABOUT D:

Hey man, 5 minutes bidding per item is a damn good time!

I agree that usually lower man groups are funner most of the time. I think that's usually more due to the fact that more often than not you're working with a group friends that you can really rely to do their best and not fuck around. The more people you bring the more likely you'll have some asshat fucking the dog or screwing something up.

With something that is more challenging it can be more fun but I notice that feeling only lasts for a very short time really because after a while everything becomes routine. After a certain point nothing even lowman should even be challenging unless something is unreliable and there's a fairly high chance of wiping or out right losing. That's why I can understand people who enjoy beating things under less than optimal or unreliable conditions but to me I'd rather have a sure thing that is a reliable and timely kill.

Yeah, the challenge bit does wear off after a while I guess but it still beats the shit out of doing every Limbus zone with 10+

[orson]

Yeah, the challenge bit does wear off after a while I guess but it still beats the shit out of doing every Limbus zone with 10+

Agreed

[matt4684]

Skill is when you bring a setup where when 1 part fails - everything else also fails. Aka no room for errors.

Sounds like a risky setup without skill. A risky setup with skilled players would mean you still win. Even if just barely

[Thorny]

Fafnir 6 isn't anywhere near lowman! 3-4 max would be lowman. We were doing it with shitty mules with 6 at 75. Rest looks reasonable.

haven't done kings since garuda, mehhh

thought i remembered fafnir having pretty strong regain, absolute terror would fuck up dd rdm brd? just curious, what setup do you use for <6?

[FailureMidgard]

haven't done kings since garuda, mehhh

thought i remembered fafnir having pretty strong regain, absolute terror would fuck up dd rdm brd? just curious, what setup do you use for <6?

We don't really do that lowman, but we were doing 6 people at 75 with like mainpld, mainrdm, whmmule, brdmule, 2blmmule. And really shitty mules for the most part (also I was main whm for lambton while 2boxing a faf that I remember).

I think 4 people with 2 dd/nin, rdm, brd. But at 80, I wouldn't be that shocked if dd/nin, rdm/nin, brd/whm could trio it. Toss on a PDT set when terrord, I don't really see Faf killing you, at some point you'll bleed+cure lose it to the rdm?
I guess, I just don't see 6 people on Fafnir as in the same league as some other things you listed. Maybe it's still technically lowman, as you said it's all opinion, and it gets really hard to tell where the line is exactly, but ya, 6 on faf is really a joke.

[loyaltrekie]

I think the purpose of lowman to be time efficient.

Not really, the purpose is either to make things more challenging(IE: for the fun of it) or just using the numbers that you have. Limbus is a horrible example for 'low manning' since the majority of zones can be cleared for chips np,np with less then 5.