Control Schemes

[Lithiani]

I don't think you need to be quite that angry or confrontational about it; it helps no-one, and will just get your point ignored.

Given that I am NOT in the beta, would anyone reading this mind testing what happens when using an alternative key layout? I will be quite annoyed if if fails to compensate for Dvorak.

[Lazytowner]

I don't think you need to be quite that angry or confrontational about it; it helps no-one, and will just get your point ignored.

Given that I am NOT in the beta, would anyone reading this mind testing what happens when using an alternative key layout? I will be quite annoyed if if fails to compensate for Dvorak.

I may be exaggerating it a bit, but I hate how trends and bad habits like these -continue-. That is why it's annoying to me.

And of course it helps no one -- I'm on one thread in one forum about a video game that's in beta testing. I don't need that brought to my attention. Should I be sucking SE's dick and praising all the positive elements while completely ignoring its negatives? Sure -- lemme head over to ZAM real quick.

[PixelPop]

I may be exaggerating it a bit, but I hate how trends and bad habits like these -continue-. That is why it's annoying to me.

And of course it helps no one -- I'm on one thread in one forum about a video game that's in beta testing. I don't need that brought to my attention. Should I be sucking SE's dick and praising all the positive elements while completely ignoring its negatives? Sure -- lemme head over to ZAM real quick.

lol im with you though buddy, idk about other JP companies, but SE does very much have a "take it or leave it" attitude and it IS annoying.
im not in beta and this is the first ive heard of any control issues, but im glad i did so i can be somewhat prepared for game release.

ps. i dont care how many people can be in a party, in WoW (yes i quit ffxi after 4 years to play wow) their party size goes up to 25 people, yet they still can use F1 onward to target those party members, never heard a single person complain about it.

[ascalon]

lol im with you though buddy, idk about other JP companies, but SE does very much have a "take it or leave it" attitude and it IS annoying.
im not in beta and this is the first ive heard of any control issues, but im glad i did so i can be somewhat prepared for game release.

ps. i dont care how many people can be in a party, in WoW (yes i quit ffxi after 4 years to play wow) their party size goes up to 25 people, yet they still can use F1 onward to target those party members, never heard a single person complain about it.

Ah yes, but in WoW you can use addons like Grid or even the basic raid frames (and mouseover macros) to target heals to any member of your 'party' you want.

In FFXIV so far, you have ZERO clickable frames such as this, so targeting party members becomes a choice of:

1) Hitting F12 (which cycles through your party members) until you get the one you want. Woe is you if you're frantically trying to get through to the right one and overshoot, because there is no reverse cycle.

2) Use the gamepad D-pad up and down. Personally I couldn't really get this to work 100% of the time, and again I'd much rather play with keyboard and mouse if I can. It is workable, and at least there is a reverse cycle through by using the opposing direction.

3) Using the software mouse to actually click on the person you want to heal. I don't mean to sound antagonistic, but if you haven't heard the utter bitching about the mouse controls in FFXIV then you really haven't been keeping up with the news of, oh, the entire alpha and beta process. Yes it IS better no. No it is NOT good enough.

4) Make macros to target every single person in your party. As a Thaum or Conj I had actually considered doing this, but then I realised there is no <P1>, <P2> and so on (so far) like there was in FFXI to make this a possibility. It's type out the person's whole name or nothing.

So yeah... fun stuff... I really like Thaum, and I really liked healing as WHM or RDM (or even SMN) in FFXI, but currently I just can't see myself being a healer, no matter what the party would LIKE me to do.

[Lithiani]

Mouseover really worked in WoW. The style of the gameplay lent itself to it. The style of play in XI didn't - it lent itself very well to both hands keyboard (helped by the traditionally "single target" gameplay of XI). It remains to be seen which way the gameplay here will work best with, as we're not yet seeing the real grouping dynamic, TBH.

[Draylo]

Based on today's update notes, they are planning to add camera control to the arrow keys. Yay

Finally..

[Lordender]

Anyone trying to defend the lack of flexibility with the controls needs to sign up for the Square Enix Defense Force, because again -- there is absolutely no excuse for it in the gaming market of 2010 and on.

The gameplay and the environments look amazing, and I can't tell you how excited I am to play this from release, but oh wow these controls are fucking pathetic.

I am very very worried about this game so far from what i've read/heard from good XI buddies that have been in since the alpha.

It's still beta with about a little more of a month away so hopefully most of the gripes will get corrected.

[Boom]

Anyone else have an issue using the gamepad to change the quest/regional/local dropdowns and the class dropdown in the ability list? Selecting a new item with the gamepad and hitting the acknowledge button doesnt "fire" and update whats displayed, but works when using the mouse.

That, no easy way to change targets, and the battle regiment being left of action 1 are the only gamepad control issues I can think of off the top of my head. I havent used the keyboard much outside of inputting the login/password. And only use the mouse for those dropdowns.

[Gokulo]

Anyone else have an issue using the gamepad to change the quest/regional/local dropdowns and the class dropdown in the ability list? Selecting a new item with the gamepad and hitting the acknowledge button doesnt "fire" and update whats displayed, but works when using the mouse.

Yes, it's a new bug.

[Babu]

I play with Gamepad, your comment that you are limited by the number of buttons is not valid because you still use your keyboard as well. I also used gamepad in FFXI, I think when I am useing my keyboard my pad rests in my lap/on my knee but its so intuitive I can't really tell you.

It is a totally valid point. With a gamepad you have access to macros(at the cost of something else you could map to buttons) but keybinds require a keyboard. Putting your controller down to use your keys is tedious and inefficient. If you're moving your hands to the keyboard you might as well keep them there. Anything you would use a gamepad for, you can do with a mouse.

[Lithiani]

Mouse pointer movement and gamepad pointer movement are very different input mechanisms, and the tactile feel of them changes the gameplay experience.

Not to miss that you get more buttons available while holding a gamepad one handed than you do a mouse.

In design terms, mouse control is designed for situations where you are using the mouse to click things on screen to achieve an aim, whereas gamepad control is designed to bind controls directly to gamepad buttons.

[Lyle]

I dislike using the mouse when playing games, FFXI was the only MMO I played that allowed all controls to be on the keyboard. I loved it. I didn't use the number pad, just the standard keys and the arrow keys if I remembered correctly. Everything was so close together it made operation easy and comfortable on my ergo keyboard.

If such a thing is possible for 14 it would be nice XD

[Deadgye]

This of course comes off as me being a bitchy smartass, but seriously, I would like this fucking explained. Please.

I personally loved not having to use the mouse to play xi, and I hope to do the same with xiv. That being said, what I truly want is the ability to customize my options. Give me the ability to bind keys to what I want.

When using a wasd+mouse set up you barely use half the keyboard. Especially when you discount typing. The thing I loved about xi's set up was that I used every part of the keyboard easily. Just give me the same control scheme as xi, but with some flexibility and it'll be golden.

[weebo]

When I first played FFXI I could not adjust to the interface. It killed me! This was at original NA release. I quit the game after my free month. A friend and I were talking about the game at lunch the next week. I was very surprised that he was enjoying as much as he was. I wanted to like it but just couldn't. We finally realized that I was playing keyboard/mouse and he was playing with a gamepad. He went home and tried it with kb/m and hated it. So, I broke down and picked up a gamepad for my PC (ps2 style). Wow (not an acrynom)! What a difference! It was so much easier to navigate the menus. It did take a bit of getting used to, but the difference was night and day. I kept playing on and off for a few more years and always enjoyed my time in FFXI. Oddly enough, every time I would try out a new MMO I found myself missing the gamepad. It was fun to kick back in the chair with my feet up and play. I finally quit FFXI due to time commitment. It was hard for me, at that time, to block off 3+ hours to level a job and have the party break up with the lvl 80 WHM ran off.

I see folks in this thread bashing SE for doing things differently. Do you want another WoW clone? Isn't the market already chock full of them? Personally I want SE to take player feedback and adjust the game to make it more fun. What I do NOT want them to do is change their design philosophy based on a limited set of feedback. Pointing out that party member selection is atrocious is exactly the kind of feedback SE needs.

Also, keep in mind that the purpose of beta is to find bugs and test subsystems. It is NOT here to give you a preview of the game. Open beta, in all its chaotic wonder, is for stress testing and to get a broader view of the game. Don't expect release to be just like beta. BETA is full of debugging code and checkpoint. A lot of the slowdowns are probably their debugging code gathering info on what you are doing and how it is working.

I understand that folks like kb/m. I understand that many think gamepads are y2kish. Perhaps you should give it a try and find out if you like it. Believe me, I was a diehard kb/m player for anything PC until FFXI. Heck, FFXI is the only thing my PC gamepad gets used for (well, I would use it for flight sims if I were playing one). Perhaps you should give the gamepad a try?

[Ae Cha]

I'm using a 360 controller now. That seems to be the least tortuous setup at the moment. I'd much rather play keyboard + mouse (or FFXI's old configuration if I can't have that), but the mouse is so terrible it hurts. Targeting in any control configuration is absolute hell; FFXI's tab system was fine, I don't understand why this one is so shoddy.

I see folks in this thread bashing SE for doing things differently. Do you want another WoW clone? Isn't the market already chock full of them? Personally I want SE to take player feedback and adjust the game to make it more fun. What I do NOT want them to do is change their design philosophy based on a limited set of feedback. Pointing out that party member selection is atrocious is exactly the kind of feedback SE needs.

Why is WoW constantly brought up as if it's the anti-christ and everything it has sucks, no matter what it is? While WoW has many shortcomings, its control scheme is not one of them. If the only alternative to being a WoW clone is having awful mouse controls and the worst targeting imaginable, I'll take the WoW clone. It's nice to have the option of using a gamepad, but it's kind of silly to expect people to have a non-standard peripheral when 90% of PC games are done keyboard + mouse. That should have been the first thing they optimized.

[shaddix]

Fuck the gamepad, makes for shitty players

[weebo]

I disagree Shaddix. To each their own.

I bring up WoW because they are the 800 lb gorilla. WoW has brought more folks into the MMO community than any other MMO. The problem is these players seem to try to turn every MMO into a clone of WoW via their feedback. Warhammer online is a prime example. The big gripes of "it isn't like wow" are other examples. I don't demonize wow. I just don't think the MMO market needs another clone of WoW.

Look at the early days of MMOs. You had EQ. Group and class based. You had Asheron's Call. Solo and skill based. You had DAoC. Mass combat vs other player based. There was variety in the market. That has changed. I do not think it is a healthy change. So, I want developers with vision to stick to their vision. It is how the genre moves foward.

[Lithiani]

At the risk of getting into the WoW debate (again), it's not simply an issue of the player base, but of the management types who control the funding.

They don't understand MMO games, they only understand the profit aspect. To them, cloning WoW means you don't have to employ those useless creative types, just a few coders. What they fail to understand is that merely cloning WoW means that there is no impetus to play the clone - because WoW already has all the things your game has, and has the extant community.

In order to beat WoW, games companies cannot merely join WoW - those projects (and we have all seen them) will fail, because the players know it, and because the players can smell fail a mile off.

I give you example A: the new 40k MMO. It smells so much of suck it's not true.


EDIT: Also, I disgree with Shaddix; gamepad functionality has its advantages compared to both mouse/kb and pure kb

[weebo]

In order to beat WoW

It should not be about beating wow. It should be about making a great game and that game succeeding on its own merit. The idea that management has grabbed hold of (beating/matching WoW) is what is stagnating the genre.

[Lithiani]

It should not be about beating wow. It should be about making a great game and that game succeeding on its own merit. The idea that management has grabbed hold of (beating/matching WoW) is what is stagnating the genre.

Agreed, but that's a players perspective. The management perspective is about making money. That's why few large corporations can truly innovate (Bliz included).

Innovation is risky, from a management perspective.

Really any sane MMO maker should only use managerial staff who actually play and comprehend the genre, but try telling that to upper management. They won't want to know, they only care about the bottom line.

Hence, many MMO games simply clone the existing paradigm setter, and thereby fail to attract the market they want, and fold within months.

It's not simply a WoW thing, by the way, or even an MMO specific thing. When EQ was top dog, people cloned EQ. When Camperstrike was king of the MFPS genre, companies cloned Camperstrike.

Genuine innovation in gaming doesn't happen very often.