Point Allotment, Good idea? Horrible idea? In final version?

[Hyan]

For all we know, the way stat allocation works now is only a temporary solution for beta. In the final game there might be a quest or a Deity Favor thingy that allows you to reallocate all of your stats at once.I don't think there's much use speculating how it will benefit or ruin the final game based on how it works now.

I think with the way the class system works right now, that would suck.

[Draylo]

I think it's a horrible idea, but that is just my opinion.

[Ae Cha]

side note and question - anyone else who just got into beta 3 having trouble posting on the beta forums? my friend and I both can't seem to do it and I can't seem to submit any feedback.

Yeah, I can't post, either. Did you get a key from fileplanet? Everyone I've spoken to who got one from there seems to have the same problem.

dat off topic

[Destinye]

I just don't know how I feel about the system and I don't think many will until we get to look at it from the end game point of view. I personally would prefer if the stats had a "merit point" system feel where someone meriting out a stat wouldn't create huge gaps in damage but enough where someone could argue it makes a difference.
If they do play a huge role I'd would like some way to change them completely in town with a cool down or even a fee.

my fear isn't cookie cutter stat allocations but rather your "stuck" into 3 basic roles of tank/melee/mage and it taking awhile to reallocate my stats to fit another of those 3 roles.

side note and question - anyone else who just got into beta 3 having trouble posting on the beta forums? my friend and I both can't seem to do it and I can't seem to submit any feedback.

Yeah, as said they're trying to make the game more accessible but they will place limitations on things so if you decide to play DoW mainly and pump up your STR/DEX/VIT purely then switch to DoM, you can't expect to just jump right in and swap stats fully and be as efficient as someone who does DoM purely.

Side Note:

Only Alpha testers (and Phase 1 beta iirc) can post on the forums, fileplanet people share a forum account which is a guest account, you can only at max view the forum but not post.

[Buddy]

I don't think people are even going to bother. It'd be much easier to just have a separate tank character, a physical DD character and a caster character if you want to be able to fill every role.

Sounds like some "fine print" to me. How much extra $ is SE charging for extra characters?

[Hyan]

It'd be much easier to just have a separate tank character, a physical DD character and a caster character if you want to be able to fill every role.

Not really, since with one character you can use all the classes at once while with 3 characters you are locked to a single class per any given activity, especially instances.

Some of you are not grasping the whole concept of this system, thinking too much in the XI mindset.

[omegaB]

3 bucks and a lot more work than resetting your stats is.


honestly by the end of ffxi, even the quick change mage was a lie, because it took mules and warps and come backs to change jobs drastically and have all the endgame leet gear, in 30 minutes you have 3 stat changes, 1 then wait 15 then 2 then wait 15 I rem waiting 30 to 40 minutes for people to go from say dragoon to rdm with all the macro stuff.

[Sparhawk]

Yeah, as said they're trying to make the game more accessible but they will place limitations on things so if you decide to play DoW mainly and pump up your STR/DEX/VIT purely then switch to DoM, you can't expect to just jump right in and swap stats fully and be as efficient as someone who does DoM purely.

yeah that is a good point and I agree I suppose I'm a worrywort. I'd just like if I do go DoW purely and I still have conj I can still switch over and be useful I don't think I should perform to the same level as someone who is purely stated for it but I shouldn't be useless either. Oh well not much we can do to test it though atm.

and that rather sucks we can't post on the forums I guess I'll have to get my friend to post some feed back for me

[Takiwaki]

nvm

[Buddy]

yeah that is a good point and I agree I suppose I'm a worrywort. I'd just like if I do go DoW purely and I still have conj I can still switch over and be useful I don't think I should perform to the same level as someone who is purely stated for it but I shouldn't be useless either. Oh well not much we can do to test it though atm.

and that rather sucks we can't post on the forums I guess I'll have to get my friend to post some feed back for me

It's really hard to post feedback based on everyone else's testing and speculations when you can't test them for yourself. I'm in the same boat as you and feel your pain.

[Draconius]

This system promotes hybridization and frankly, fuck that. How else am I supposed to play on 2 classes in one day without spending 5 hours slowly working my way towards the stats I want? You would have to hybridize. Even if you didnt want to hybridize, frequent job changes would make your stats stuck in a transition state as you constantly move them towards the role you need - it will be a hybrid.

And charging me to change my stats, no thanks. What if in FFXI you had to pay your moogle to change jobs? If I cant change my all of my stats to fit my class then I haven't fully changed jobs yet. I think the final version should allow full stat reallocation in your personal space (mog house, whatever). That way you could change in the field if you wanted but you cant be at 100%. Then allow a percentage of your total available stat points to be reset and reallocated in the field to give some degree of adaptability.

I honestly dont think the current system would fly with the players if implemented in retail. There are no benefits and its too limiting. I understand the need to balance the ability to switch classes whenever you want (its never been done in an MMO), but I think they are being too overcautious.

[Baffle]

Personally, I don't like the idea of stat allocations as it currently works.

As someone said, stat allocations and a class change system just don't mix well. If anything, stat allocation is only going to discourage me from changing classes frequently. Because without the proper stats for each class I'll feel like I'm just half-assing everything. Which sucks, because it means I'll end up only able to enjoy one type of class rather than two or all of them. Which, in the end, only makes the game less fun to play.

Which is a shame, since the best part of FFXI was being able to kick ass on DRG one minute, and then switch to keeping everyone alive and managing links on RDM in the next.

[Hyan]

It's a matter of adapting; in this system, you don't really "half-ass" anything by playing more than one class. It is, theoretically at least, the most efficient way to play, despite not being able to spend the last 100 points on that 10 STR.

If you don't do it, you're "half-assing" it as a matter of fact. In long-term at least.

[Thanos]

Why? you can fully respec in like 3 hours. and if your goin on semi close jobs you wouldnt need a full respec.
basically every 15 min or so, you can shave off a % of your stats, for most things you'd only need 1 or 2 repecs unless your going totally opposite directions.

Is this confirmed? it's down to 15minutes per? In Phase 2 it was between an hour and two hours for each. Or was it merely stating that in the final release it's planned to be 15min?

They could fix all this by allowing a full stat reset with a # of days left timer on it before you could do it again. Would prevent abuse or at least delay it long enough to force people to play 1-2 classes for a few days before switching back.

[Baffle]

It's a matter of adapting; in this system, you don't really "half-ass" anything by playing more than one class. It is, theoretically at least, the most efficient way to play, despite not being able to spend the last 100 points on that 10 STR.

If you don't do it, you're "half-assing" it as a matter of fact. In long-term at least.

I said "frequently." You could change classes and spend a week gaining abilities you want/need and you wouldn't have to worry about stats since you'd be staying on that class for a extended period of time.

But that's what I mean, you can change classes for a week at a time no problem, but you can't jump around at will like you could in FFXI without your stats suffering. And I just think that's disappointing.

[Draconius]

It's a matter of adapting; in this system, you don't really "half-ass" anything by playing more than one class. It is, theoretically at least, the most efficient way to play, despite not being able to spend the last 100 points on that 10 STR.

If you don't do it, you're "half-assing" it as a matter of fact. In long-term at least.

I understand that by hybridizing your stats you will gain in the long run due to your adaptability during party play, HNM fights, etc. I think forcing people to hybridize their stats in the field is important to balance the ability to switch classes on the fly. The system doesn't have to be so limiting though. There should be some way of fully reallocating without a penalty for the simple purpose of letting people do what they want whether it be min/maxing, testing, or just cause.

EDIT: There would of course have to be some limit on how the game allows this to happen. The simplest idea is to let people do full respecs in their mog house analogue.

[Metafox]

As it is, I don't think that I'd really like stat adjustments as they are. As some have said, if you are going to change your class then you need to be able to change your stats to match your new class. As it is right now, the system seems contradictory; you're encouraged to change your class but you're discouraged from playing anything dissimilar to your main class.

If we're given two stat builds to switch between, I think that this would at least be enough for a person to try both magic and physical classes. Of course, physical classes might need a separate stat build for tanking, but for now we're pretending that a hybrid DD/tank will work out, so they can get by with one physical build for now. Respeccing, though, is unacceptable to me. If we know that we're frequently going to need a different set of stats for a significantly different role, we shouldn't have to painstakingly redo our build point-by-point.

Even so, I'll withhold my final judgment until I play the final game. If the stat allotment stuff is game-breaking, I'll know it.

[cassiraa]

Maybe allow stat changes to have 'charges' that build up to a full stat reset. Last I heard it was an hour inbetween stat adjustment, so you'd not only have 3 hours [more at max level] but you'd also have to actively be at your computer doing the adjustments every hour.


I guess my big concern is the following scenario.
Person A is statted as a conjurer.
Person B is the planned linkshell tank.
Person B doesn't sign on.
LS tells Person A "Switch to Marauder, we need you to tank this event"
Person A says "we'll have to delay the event 3 hours, or I'll be tanking with a VIT of 15, even though you're right, I do have a max level Marauder with endgame gear"


Ways they could have around it:

1) Store up 'charges' of stat swaps, up to a full respec. This would prevent people from switching 2-3 times in one instance, but allow people to change jobs as an event unfolds.

2) Allow 2 stat specs that you can switch between, This would allow you to switch between 2 jobs, or respec to similar jobs [mage/melee builds] This would still allow people to have their own jobs

3) Mix assigned stats with point allocation. You have your jobs stats, then you have 20-30 points you can allocate wherever you want. Seems this would stop people from having max level chars with single-digit VIT, while still letting people optimize their characters for how they want to play them.

Even Warhammer online let you respec by talking to a npc, dropping a gold and doing a 100% respec in any town [though no class changes]

A lot of the Hybrid talk makes me concerned that the classes might not fully support their desired hybrid job. A war/whm does not a paladin make. Even less so if you take away 30 STR to add in 30 MND, even if you can then handle conjurer's abilities, you're still a marauder just now with 30 less STR because you had to split your focus. Specialization has always tended to take the priority over versatility in any non-solo online game I've played.

[Ae Cha]

Not really, since with one character you can use all the classes at once while with 3 characters you are locked to a single class per any given activity, especially instances.

Some of you are not grasping the whole concept of this system, thinking too much in the XI mindset.

If stats are still big end-game, you will still be functionally locked to a single role anyway. Your Conjurer main won't be able to tank the boss with straight mage stats, he'll get one shot. If that same hypothetical encounter were designed for Conjurer-main or hybridized low levels of VIT, encounters will be totally trivial in the face of a character that is min-maxed; if a hybridized setup can take the beating, the healers would be able to just take a vacation with an optimally specialized Gladiator in front of it. If I had the option of bringing out all of my characters and logging them out near the raid site, I would have more flexibility with my classes than either FFXI or XIV with the current stat system.

Regardless of how the system is supposed to work, the nature of math and the community are going to severely restrict the use of non-optimally specialized classes. MMOs are all numbers games. In large-scale raids, hybrid utility always take a back seat to raw mathematically efficiency if the hybridization mechanics are not deliberately built into the parent class for viable mathematical output.

Hybridization will work for soloing and small groups, but the mechanics of stats are rigid; you can't, say, make a Gladiator with a VIT/MND/PIE setup magically give a raid-wide bonus that is statistically significant and desirable vs. having every Gladiator do a standard stat spread. They're just flat mathematical bonuses -- they're not like ability specializations that have a lot of variation and can be tweaked individually for proper endgame viability if they're not up to snuff. If SE plans to make variable stat allocations useful endgame I cannot think of a way they could possibly do it. You can't change classes in combat, so it's unlikely that class swaps will be directly built into individual encounters. If different encounters within a dungeon are optimized for certain raid makeups that would encourage hybridization, and are possible to complete with hybridized stat setups, it will be even easier to complete it if you swap out your raid slots for min/maxed characters (and that is exactly what people will do). If you are restricted from bringing new people into instanced dungeons or what not, disconnects or people leaving early will totally destroy your raid. If SE plans to actually make difficult encounters, they have to design it with an optimized setup in mind, or it will get totally pulverized by the guys with the calculators (see: meleeburn).

If SE wants people to really use class swaps within dungeons, they need to totally unrestrict them (except for by level, gear, and skill). The game is not going to break if everyone can be "good at everything" if the game is deliberately built around the concept of frequent on-the-field class swaps. The idea that this mechanic needs to be restricted is only relevant in the context of past MMOs, which are usually based on averaged group balances designed for inclusion of all classes. With unrestricted swaps, it's not totally out of the question that encounters could be really heavily skewed towards certain setups (e.g. an NM with total immunity to magic or melee, one that has no enmity table, one that shuts out healing, etc.) without actually requiring the people within the raid to change at all. Being forced to level multiple classes might be a pain if it's as slow as it is now (though people will have to do that anyway if cross-class actions stay the same), but if leveling a single class to the cap was quick and didn't cap your physical level, people would level multiple classes pretty readily.

[Kylewhataru]

What if they cap the amount of points you can allocate to 1 stat.

Say you can't allocate more than 40% of your points into 1 stat, it would force people to be ok with hybridization, and there would still be cookie cutter specs but it eliminates the whole "100% INT OR GTFO" thing.