Point Allotment, Good idea? Horrible idea? In final version?

[Ae Cha]

What if they cap the amount of points you can allocate to 1 stat.

Say you can't allocate more than 40% of your points into 1 stat, it would force people to be ok with hybridization, and there would still be cookie cutter specs but it eliminates the whole "100% INT OR GTFO" thing.

Min/max isn't just loading all of your points into one stat. It's picking the optimal mathematical setup. People wouldn't have been going 100% INT in the first place, because at some point the increased cost of points per stat would make putting points into PIE or VIT/MND more mathematically advantageous to your damage output (unless you already have enough VIT/MND to not be one shot and are able to hit an "accuracy cap" of some sort), same with STR/DEX.

Unless the limits are like 16% across the board, nothing SE can do with this system will be able to "win" over min/maxing; flat stat bonuses are just so unavoidably mathy that there isn't really a way to introduce any utilitarian incentive to not crank the optimal math output. Individual stats have nothing that would increase the overall damage/healing/survivability of the raid and incentivize bringing a hybrid over a player optimized for his role. If cranking INT as a Gladiator increased the STR of everyone standing next to you, you'd sure as hell see people sacrificing some of their primary stats to do that, but there are no systems like this in place. Cranking INT with no utility like this will just make you a mediocre tank with medicore magic, which does not add up to a useful raid slot by itself.

[Maguspk]

The people who say this system is good or even accept it make me cringe. Point allocation is tear inducing, like someone said earlier it simply contradicts the ability to switch jobs entirely.

I haven't seen anyone suggest this simple solution though:

Just have separate stat allocations per job. The current class changing system fucking blows, it remembers nothing. If they want to not suck retail they will implement a feature which automatically fills your action bar based on what it was last you were on that job. Simply reallocating skill points on a per job basis would not be such a far cry from this.

[Hyan]

Just have separate stat allocations per job.

This is the dumbest idea ever. It's either done like the way it is now, or there should not be a stat allocation system at all.

All that system does is make min/maxing even more prevalent, just like in any other game with stat allocations (ragnarok online comes to mind).

[Draylo]

This is the dumbest idea ever. It's either done like the way it is now, or there should not be a stat allocation system at all.

All that system does is make min/maxing even more prevalent, just like in any other game with stat allocations (ragnarok online comes to mind).

Yes this ^.... and it's really something I dislike.

[Hyan]

Of course the system as it is would have min/maxing as well, but there would be as many 'builds' as there are classes. Compared to "one right build/class", it makes us have at least some freedom in how we decide to spend our points, and there would actually be a choice.

[Ae Cha]

Of course the system as it is would have min/maxing as well, but there would be as many 'builds' as there are classes. Compared to "one right build/class", it makes us have at least some freedom in how we decide to spend our points, and there would actually be a choice.

With the system as it is now, min-maxing is equally prevalent, only it shuts out the ability to easily change roles. The community will still ostracize people who do not play with an optimal stat allocation -- would you bring a MNK/SMN or something equally stupid to a raid? Instead of multiple viable builds (the existence of builds and the viability of builds are entirely different things), you will have a bait and switch illusion of customization that will only piss of the people who really wanted to be a summoner monk, were lead to believe they could be a summoner monk, and will be told it is Working As Intended and that they "can" be a summoner monk even though no one will play with them.

MMOs have been through this again and again and again -- EQ had the holy trinity. WoW druids/paladins/priests/shaman had three specializations back in vanilla WoW, but all but the healer specs were never used; the people who leveled to 60 wanting to be damage dealers or tanks on those classes were suddenly shut out from end-game because their tank/damage specs were so lackluster in comparison to "pure" tanks/damage dealers. They had to play a healer or reroll. That is exactly what is going to happen with "hybrids" in FFXIV, except we have SE running the show, so the players will never be heard and it will never be changed.

Having it on a per-class basis would be pretty redundant, but if there HAS to be a stat allocation system, I'd rather have that than a character-wide system. I wish they'd just get rid of it.

[Hyan]

With the system as it is now, min-maxing is equally prevalent, only it shuts out the ability to easily change roles. The community will still ostracize people who do not play with an optimal stat allocation -- would you bring a MNK/SMN or something equally stupid to a raid?

The real question here is: Would you bring a MNK/NIN to a raid if he had 10 less STR than optimally but could easily switch to BLM for when more magic damage is needed?

I'm not sure if you even read the last 2 pages, but what you're saying is not the 'optimal way' to do things in this game. There are no Mog House limitations.

[Battlecat]

The people who say this system is good or even accept it make me cringe. Point allocation is tear inducing, like someone said earlier it simply contradicts the ability to switch jobs entirely.

Or, there's the possibility, you're misunderstanding the point of being able to switch jobs in the field. It's possible that job changes in the field are meant to give an alliance/party more adaptability while still requiring you to bring a balanced party. Oh your whm d/c'd? Hey, thaum, switch to your healing Conj rq til they get back. You won't be perfect but we can can keep going. Oh this monster is immune to physical damage? melee DD's, switch to Conj and help out, some damage is better than none. Just because we haven't seen why SE has done it this way doesn't mean it's stupid. Not saying that's definitely how it's going to be, but the system has just as much potential to be good as it does to be bad. I think that if they make in town/moghouse respecs unlimited it could turn out very nicely. There's always the possiblity that I'm wrong and SE is just being stupid (wouldn't be the first time for either) but at this point screaming from the mountain tops that it's the worst system ever is every bit as ridiculous as the SE defense force troops.

[Ae Cha]

The real question here is: Would you bring a MNK/NIN to a raid if he had 10 less STR than optimally but could easily switch to BLM for when more magic damage is needed?

I'm not sure if you even read the last 2 pages, but what you're saying is not the 'optimal way' to do things in this game. There are no Mog House limitations.

If 10 extra stat points were enough to turn what would otherwise be an [essentially] naked BLM into a viable nuker, then the 10 STR the MNK/NIN gave up would be more than enough to cripple the MNK's damage output when he's not being a BLM. If it's just a fight where MNKs are useless and even a BLM with 10 INT and nothing else would do more damage than him, why have him swap into a shitty BLM when you could replace him with a properly specced BLM? If the encounter is so easy that you can afford having dead weight taking up raid slots, then we have an entirely different problem on our hands.

[Hyan]

If 10 extra stat points were enough to turn what would otherwise be an [essentially] naked BLM into a viable nuker

Huh? Why would the BLM be naked?

[Ae Cha]

Huh? Why would the BLM be naked?

Sorry, I didn't mean anything to do with gear. I meant naked as in those 10 points were the only caster stats he had. (e.g. 90STR/100DEX vs. 25INT/15PIE or some similar allotment)

[Hyan]

Sorry, I didn't mean anything to do with gear. I meant naked as in those 10 points were the only caster stats he had. (e.g. 90STR/100DEX vs. 25INT/15PIE or some similar allotment)

Of course this system requires there to be a point of diminishing returns, which I failed to explain.

At that point, while you could get even more STR for your MNK, raising your INT for your BLM would be much more cost effective, since then you would have 2 jobs that can perform effectively instead of just one job that can perform marginally better than the rest.

[Nevex]

As long as they're not permanent changes, I don't see anything wrong with stat allocation.

FFXI's system heavily punished hybrid jobs (BLU, DNC, PUP, BST, NIN, SMN were certainly not the most desired jobs in general) simply because they couldn't reach a SAM, damage over time, a BLM's magic damage output or a PLD's tanking abilities even though they could cover several roles at once.
Thanks to FFXI's completely free equip swapping system you can turn a job like DRK or SAM in a magic damage tank in a blink of an eye, further punishing hybrid jobs. Hell you can even turn a WHM in a semi-decent melee DD in merits with a proper build.

No matter how good your BLU nuking build or NIN tanking build were, they were destined to live in something else's shadow.

I'd love to see a system that punishes those who are obsessed with big epeen numbers instead. What's the point of dealing huge damage if you go down in a single hit and then you have to wait till weakness wears off anyway.

If SE plans to actually make difficult encounters, they have to design it with an optimized setup in mind, or it will get totally pulverized by the guys with the calculators (see: meleeburn).

Knowing SE, they'll just observe players' most common tactics, then nerf them by adding mobs that counter them, like they've ALWAYS done in FFXI.
"You like to meleeburn every HNM to oblivion? Here's something that spams aoe stun/Tp reset for you.
You like to manaburn stuff to hell and back? New HNMs have 90% magic damage reduction.
You like to play defensively and take your time killing stuff? Deal with sleep/bind/gravity immunity, insane auto-regen, rage timers and alliance draw-in."

[Deadgye]

I think I like it personally, it sounds like this was the see-saw effect they mentioned a while ago. While you can change classes on the fly, even more easily than you could in XI, it takes longer for your character to become "specialized". It gives great individuality to everyone's characters that couldn't be gained otherwise.

You have the option to specialize completely as one class and only play that class. The option to specialize completely as one class and play multiple classes while having your non-main class slightly less powerful that other people who chose to specialize in that class. You have the option to go hybrid between multiple classes, so that your 'power level' is in between those of the two aforementioned cases. And last but not least, your specialization isn't permanent. Given what I'd consider a short amount of time, you can change your specialization partially, or given what I'd consider a relatively short amount of time you can change your specialization completely.

Now, I have not yet gotten into beta so I don't know the specifics first hand. But this is the opinion I'm coming to based off the stuff I've read so far. Hopefully I haven't misread anything. The only downside seems to be that the more unlike your classes are, the bigger the detriment is. Hopefully the detriment isn't too big. I'm on the fence about this part- mostly because it really adds a sense of uniqueness and appropriate realism into the game. If you're really good with a sword, suddenly changing into a staff and casting magic seems like it shouldn't work as well as suddenly changing into attacking with a lance. It seems that this is the key issue: exactly how big of a detriment is caused by stat differences, and how long does it take to overcome them via reallocating.

[LD]

How good this point system actually is depends entirely on mid to end game and whether or not SE can create a game where both traditionals (Phys or Magk) and hybrids (Phys and Magk) can be optimized. It's possible, but the one job/one stat tree model is much easier to figure out for developers (unless you marginalize any danger, which won't happen.)

At any rate, I disagree that stat point systems are inherently bad and constrict job changing. Even if you ignore reallocation, you're only locked out of jobs if you choose to set yourself up that way. Even for a full phys, you have the option of forgoing VIT or DEX for more STR, so the 'not as much raw power' argument is more a matter of taste or how much of a stat you actually need. If each job had set stats that we couldn't touch, it'd be FFXI all over again and abilities from other jobs would just be an expanded subjob list. It would be about getting the best abilities rather than picking the ones that appealed to us and hybridization would be impossible. If you separated stat allocations by class, we would still have the option for hybridization, but we would almost certainly allocate to the job's strengths, since we could switch to another job/stat set to get a different feel.

I don't know what's coming next in terms of abilities I might like or stats I might need, but the current system allows for freedom & flexibility without tempting me spec as a career Pug.

[Kaylia]

This is the dumbest idea ever. It's either done like the way it is now, or there should not be a stat allocation system at all.

All that system does is make min/maxing even more prevalent, just like in any other game with stat allocations (ragnarok online comes to mind).

5 str
4782492 dex

yeah...make sense.


Stats system are retarded. In the best case scenario where you actually have to tweak your stats before every fight, the whole system could still be replaced by a few job abilities and stances that do the same shit (similar to defender/berserk). It doesnt add any level of "depth" that isnt covered by another element (gears, ability, class limitation), so why have stats as another limiting factor?

Even hybrid job gains nothing out of it. They usually have to change their equipment in the first place, and the games prevent you from doing these in a fight.

[Hyan]

Stats system are retarded.

After everything said in this thread, I don't agree.

[Kaylia]

Of course you disagree. You would argue that shit smell good if it was SquareEnix that did it.

[Hyan]

That's the quality of argument I would only expect from Kaylia.

Both of us have our own agendas, but only one of us is right (which is not you this time, I'm afraid).

[omegaB]

I think I like it personally, it sounds like this was the see-saw effect they mentioned a while ago. While you can change classes on the fly, even more easily than you could in XI, it takes longer for your character to become "specialized". It gives great individuality to everyone's characters that couldn't be gained otherwise.

You have the option to specialize completely as one class and only play that class. The option to specialize completely as one class and play multiple classes while having your non-main class slightly less powerful that other people who chose to specialize in that class. You have the option to go hybrid between multiple classes, so that your 'power level' is in between those of the two aforementioned cases. And last but not least, your specialization isn't permanent. Given what I'd consider a short amount of time, you can change your specialization partially, or given what I'd consider a relatively short amount of time you can change your specialization completely.

Now, I have not yet gotten into beta so I don't know the specifics first hand. But this is the opinion I'm coming to based off the stuff I've read so far. Hopefully I haven't misread anything. The only downside seems to be that the more unlike your classes are, the bigger the detriment is. Hopefully the detriment isn't too big. I'm on the fence about this part- mostly because it really adds a sense of uniqueness and appropriate realism into the game. If you're really good with a sword, suddenly changing into a staff and casting magic seems like it shouldn't work as well as suddenly changing into attacking with a lance. It seems that this is the key issue: exactly how big of a detriment is caused by stat differences, and how long does it take to overcome them via reallocating.

I dont see why min maxers have a problem with this system, in ffxi, there were impediments to you being super man, it was called races, so yes you could change jobs infinitely, but no matter how long, or how much you trained you couldnt be the best at everything. This system so far lets any body be the best, but you have to actually decide to do it.

It also gives you the freedom to choose your role, you guys insult hybrids, but this game isnt the same, going all out in one direction only works if the game allows it, if by going heavy strength, i make myself too weak to debuffs, i can lose if i go all tank i wont get much hate from my damage.

most of all in a system where you can eq dif skills for different builds you definately need the ability to respec,

a sneak attack skill is useless if your class has no dexterity,

so the guy who leveled lnc and has sneak attacks min max build needs more dex to work. the guy who has the skill that turns his defense into accuracy wants more vit, in a system with changeable skills, coming up with the optimal dmg build means you need to be able to respec.

Different people will have different skills availble, you can try to get all your dd to have all the level 99 skills from 5 different classes, but good luck. its entirely possible that the guy who has gladiator max and thaum max is as good at tanking as the guy who has gladiator max and marauder maxed, but chances are they are going to need different stat allotments to do the job. especially when you dont have 200 gears to alter your stats.