Point Allotment, Good idea? Horrible idea? In final version?

[Hyan]

So, you're suggesting that people actually use a stat build that benefits all of their classes? If so, then you're a complete retard i'd have to say.

Yes, all of their classes. They will most likely end up playing all of them, if only to get some spells and abilities to use on their Gladiator. They don't want to be gimps now do they?

But it must feel good taking 3% less damage on Glad while all of their other classes suck horribly.

[Kirb]

What he's saying is that due to very heavy diminishing returns in terms of stat allocation, it'd be a greater benefit to simply allocate some of them to weaker stats, at least to a general beneficiary level. There's nothing about having a completely rounded build. If they want to go the full min/max for a particular class, they have to sacrifice their versatility.

I don't see what the fuss is about this, really. I min/max too to a reasonable degree, I like being good at whatever my class is. I just think that when min/maxing gets to the point of epeen parser status and arguing over fractions of a percentage, it's kind of laughable.

It's different, people are just going to have to adapt and deal with it. Hardcore Min/maxers will have to adapt and learn how to allocate stats in a beneficiary way without damaging their versatility instead of QQing up the place.

[Hyan]

It's different, people are just going to have to adapt and deal with it. Hardcore Min/maxers will have to adapt and learn how to allocate stats in a beneficiary way without damaging their versatility instead of QQing up the place.

And it's not like they'd have to adapt to something worse than what we have already available. It's just a different way of min/maxing, and that's why people are getting their panties in a twist.

"But if it's not broken why fix it?" Yes, indeed, I certainly love to play copies of the same game I played years ago.

[Kirb]

If anything, it makes min/max a lot more interesting to me, because it becomes less of a soul-wrenching numbers game and more about actually thinking shit through instead of just trying to lower X and heighten Y. Having to thinking about versatility between classes gives it a bit of much-needed spice.

[Baffle]

Since people keep making comparisons to FFXI, I just want to put this out there:

In FFXI, you could be both, for example, a Dragoon and a Red Mage on the same character. Both jobs have their own stats and abilities that are pre-determined by the game and the player has no control over. However, in FFXI, you had gear, and gear was everything.

You could collect several pieces of equipment for each job, dozens upon dozens of items that are all designed to bring out the most of each job by enhancing what they do well. And in the end, both jobs would have it's own set of equipment.

Now imagine if the game didn't allow you to do that. Imagine if they game forced you to use the same set of equipment for both DRG and RDM. There's going to be problems. A DRG doesn't need INT or MND, and it doesn't need elemental staves the same way a RDM probably doesn't need accuracy, attack, STR, and etc.

So what you end up with is a bunch of gear that doesn't benefit the jobs at all, and half your equipment slots are essentially wasted. That is what stat allocations feel like. They don't allow you to fully take advantage of each job you want to play, instead you have to "settle" on something that does "well enough" for both. This is a disappointment to those of us who enjoyed FFXI, which is, you know, what FFXIV is a sequel to.


Fake edit: Also people need to stop throwing around things like "1% difference". I could show you several parses from FFXI where two people would be on the same exact job yet one person would be doing double to nearly triple the amount of damage as the other person. The difference in stats could be drastic or it could be minuscule. Nobody knows at this point, stop assuming you do.

[omegaB]

Since people keep making comparisons to FFXI, I just want to put this out there:

In FFXI, you could be both, for example, a Dragoon and a Red Mage on the same character. Both jobs have their own stats and abilities that are pre-determined by the game and the player has no control over. However, in FFXI, you had gear, and gear was everything.

You could collect several pieces of equipment for each job, dozens upon dozens of items that are all designed to bring out the most of each job by enhancing what they do well. And in the end, both jobs would have it's own set of equipment.

Now imagine if the game didn't allow you to do that. Imagine if they game forced you to use the same set of equipment for both DRG and RDM. There's going to be problems. A DRG doesn't need INT or MND, and it doesn't need elemental staves the same way a RDM probably doesn't need accuracy, attack, STR, and etc.

So what you end up with is a bunch of gear that doesn't benefit the jobs at all, and half your equipment slots are essentially wasted. That is what stat allocations feel like. They don't allow you to fully take advantage of each job you want to play, instead you have to "settle" on something that does "well enough" for both. This is a disappointment to those of us who enjoyed FFXI, which is, you know, what FFXIV is a sequel to.


Fake edit: Also people need to stop throwing around things like "1% difference". I could show you several parses from FFXI where two people would be on the same exact job yet one person would be doing double to nearly triple the amount of damage as the other person. The difference in stats could be drastic or it could be minuscule. Nobody knows at this point, stop assuming you do.

this is true, this game isnt as instant when your going to opposite ends of the spectrum, its more like i play dragoon this week and rdm next week. Of course this is with the current reallocation method, its entirely possible they plan to let you get reallocation in other ways more completely, items, some type of guardian thing etc.

basically thing to keep in mind is, this isnt XI they have a different vision for how this game should play and how classes should work. its not gonna offer you all the same benefits or minuses as the XI system, and that is totally logical and expected in a new game, XI is still there to play with fairly cool upgrades if you like that system

Every final fantasy changes thier game mechanics with each iteration, which is the best? each person decides, but dont expect it to be all the same

[Kirb]

No, what it does is force you to choose between min/maxing for a single class (a perfectly viable option) or slightly lessening your min/max for the sake of versatility.

Fake edit: Also people need to stop throwing around things like "1% difference". I could show you several parses from FFXI where two people would be on the same exact job yet one person would be doing double to nearly triple the amount of damage as the other person. The difference in stats could be drastic or it could be minuscule. Nobody knows at this point, stop assuming you do.

There's no indication that other people will be doing double damage either with a few STR over a person with slightly less STR, either.


This isn't XI, regardless of how similar elements of it may seem. I really wish people would stop thinking only in the XI mindset.

[mightyg]

Have each class have it's own stats, and keep the point allotment system?

[Kirb]

Have your cake and eat it too, eh?

I can see why people would want that, but then what's the point of an allocation system, or a different system at all?

Their method is different in that it allows you to switch classes, just that you're not going to be the best of the best when you do, and I honestly think that's a nice twist that adds a lot more thought to the process.

It's different from what people expect from an MMO, typically the realm of pure black and white min/max, and that's what I like about it.

There's also a lot of purchasable traits that convert stats to soften the stat change. I doubt in a year or so this will even be an issue.


If there's any compromise I would give, it's to perhaps allow job changing without penalty for a fee at an NPC in every city or something. At least that way it would help stem inflation.

[Baffle]

No, what it does is force you to choose between min/maxing for a single class (a perfectly viable option) or slightly lessening your min/max for the sake of versatility.

Yes, but why must it be a choice to begin with? Why use a system that many fans will find frustrating? Is the alternative that unpleasant to some of you? Does the idea of each job having it's own set of stats really bother people that much?

I just don't understand it. I don't understand why they would switch to this new system when the old one worked so well. In my opinion, stat allocations just cause more harm than good. But I guess some people disagree, even if I don't really get it...

[Frein]

So what you end up with is a bunch of gear that doesn't benefit the jobs at all, and half your equipment slots are essentially wasted. That is what stat allocations feel like. They don't allow you to fully take advantage of each job you want to play, instead you have to "settle" on something that does "well enough" for both. This is a disappointment to those of us who enjoyed FFXI, which is, you know, what FFXIV is a sequel to.

I completely agree with this. I bolded the important part because I completely understand Hyan's point. It is certainly possible to design the system in such a way that hybridizing your stats to some extent actually produces the better overall results, however, I would not enjoy such a system for the reason Baffle mentioned. It would simply feel bad to have any stats allocated improperly at any time, which I would be forced to do if it was correct to do so.

If I got to choose, I would scrap the system in a heartbeat.

[omegaB]

I completely agree with this. I bolded the important part because I completely understand Hyan's point. It is certainly possible to design the system in such a way that hybridizing your stats to some extent actually produces the better overall results, however, I would not enjoy such a system for the reason Baffle mentioned. It would simply feel bad to have any stats allocated improperly at any time, which I would be forced to do if it was correct to do so.

If I got to choose, I would scrap the system in a heartbeat.

werent you wasting that 50 or 60 mind when you were on thf in ffxi? and this system gives you the option to waste nothing, or max it up. choice is yours however you like it, only dont exoect to go from one end of the spectrum to the complete opposite instantly.

[Baffle]

werent you wasting that 50 or 60 mind when you were on thf in ffxi?

It's not wasted because you didn't have to give anything up in order to gain it. Stats in FFXI were determined by the game and not you, so in a sense they weren't really even there. Most people didn't even pay any mind to stat differences from each race, people only cared about gear.

Which is why I made the comparison gear. In FFXI, your only influence on your character was what equipment you chose to wear. It's the closest comparison to stat allocations you can find within FFXI.

Also, the main reason I was trying to compare the two games is because I believe that most people here would be able to relate to the situation I mentioned in FFXI, and thus understand how myself and others feel about this whole thing.

[Kainsin]

To take the FFXI job analogy in a slightly different way, what if you had maxed PLD and made a really great tank build. But imagine PLD was able to suck in some of the DD abilities from DRK and SAM and could get its hands on a couple choice gear selections.

Now what's limiting you? PLD still has pretty high VIT, MND and CHA which aren't needed as much on a DD build. What if you could swap these over to STR and DEX to shine even more as a DD PLD (in this mythical FFXI scenario).

This is kind of what I'm thinking about for the classes in the game. Let's take Gladiator for example. If you pump your VIT up really high and get defensive gear and the defensive abilities from other jobs then you could be a really good tank. But what about a DD Gladiator? They can get the gear and the abilities but they can also switch over to STR/DEX to complete their set-up.

With set stats for each class this would be impossible.

I do agree that there needs to be a way to adjust stats quickly and I think that having to run back to your mog house-equivalent would work just fine.

[Frein]

It's not wasted because you didn't have to give anything up in order to gain it.

Exactly.

[omegaB]

It's not wasted because you didn't have to give anything up in order to gain it. Stats in FFXI were determined by the game and not you, so in a sense they weren't really even there. Most people didn't even pay any mind to stat differences from each race, people only cared about gear.

Which is why I made the comparison gear. In FFXI, your only influence on your character was what equipment you chose to wear. It's the closest comparison to stat allocations you can find within FFXI.

Also, the main reason I was trying to compare the two games is because I believe that most people here would be able to relate to the situation I mentioned in FFXI, thus understand how myself and others feel about this whole thing.

i remember quite a few lol galka whm and actually one of the best at thier job i knew was a galka. also lol taru pld lol taru nin.
But yeah what im saying is the ffxi system wouldnt work well, i dunno if you ve played this game, but "jobs" arent really like jobs in ffxi for

example Lancer is a weapon choice mostly, sure they have a primary build, but you can literally chuck almost all your skills and still play well. My pugilist has like.... 11 or 12 skills by 21 only 3 of them are pugilist only, and they are basic attacks. I have used a marauder weapon skill on my conjurer to excellent effect low level because it cost no mp and does good dmg, and is an effective use of the tp i have no use for till level 10. there is so many ways to go about playing a discipline that it wouldnt make sense for each job to have predetermined stats.

the problem with each class having its own allocation stats saved, is that they just didnt intend for people to be able to be the best at everything instantly. They wanted a little more permanence, although you still have the option, the idea is they dont want you to be able to do it all the time. even if they change the way you allocate, i doubt it will be something you can do whenever you want simply because thats not how they want it to play. You can choose to develop linearly and be the best specialized tank ever, or you can choose to be varied and be able to fulfill multiple rolls, you can even do both, but you cant do it instantly is all.

People for get the whole min max thing is built around having everyone else min max as well, and having all the right roles, it wouldnt make sense to try to have a game that can be played with 1-15 people if the mechanics are based around a 6 man party with rigid roles.

Im not even saying they will pull it off right, just that if they dont have allocation the system of create your own job will have serious issues

[Deadgye]

"I don't want to have options, shit should be forced so that everybody is the same."

How you people think that's better is beyond me. Honestly.. if the people against it would actually provide a legitimate argument I might seriously join the debate, but all I've seen so far are personal opinions whose basis is an assumption that the system is bad.

Nobody is going to kick you because your puglist doesn't have as much str as that other puglist. If they do, they're elitist pricks. I laughed in xi when I got pushed aside for "better" jobs because I was thief. And then I laughed harder when I outdamaged and outperformed the person playing the "better" job.

[Baffle]

"I don't want to have options, shit should be forced so that everybody is the same."

How you people think that's better is beyond me. Honestly.. if the people against it would actually provide a legitimate argument I might seriously join the debate, but all I've seen so far are personal opinions whose basis is an assumption that the system is bad.

Options are good, I'm all for having options.

And I've made an argument, this system has more limitations than it's predecessor in that I cannot easily switch between two drasticly different roles without having to jump through a bunch of annoying hoops. So, yes, in my opinion, that's a bad thing.

Nobody is going to kick you because your puglist doesn't have as much str as that other puglist.

I'm not talking about getting kicked out of whatever. I'm not even concerned with anything like that. What I've been talking about is my own personal satisfaction with my own character.

[Kirb]

Have you ever thought the reasons behind why they would have enforced limitations so people could not easily switch between two drastically different roles while out in the field or during a leve?

The restrictions aren't there just to piss you off. It adds a new element for consideration while allocating stats, as I've explained. It's different than XI, and infinitely more interesting than self-contained allocation within classes or predetermined stat growth, in my personal opinion.

I doubt it's going to be abolished either, so I think people are going to have to give it a try and adapt to it, or move on to a different game.

[Baffle]

Have you ever thought the reasons behind why they would have enforced limitations so people could not easily switch between two drastically different roles while out in the field or during a leve?

I admit this is a pretty big assumption on my part, but, I don't really see changing class in the field coming up that often. If I'm out to do something, I'm most likely going to decide on one class before leaving town and then stick with that class until I'm finished. If I was going to change, I'd probably want to go back to town and rearrange everything first, otherwise I'd have to go do things like carry around two sets of equipment for everything. It just seems like a big limitation to put in place in order to maintain what I feel is essentially a novelty.

I don't know, man. I guess you could say I have quite a few issues with the way this game is being designed, and it's just frustrating because I liked FFXI, and I am excited about playing a new FF MMO, but then all these decisions they're making just sound so... unpleasant.


Bah, I should stop posting so much and go back to lurking...