FFXIV Tactics: Understand The Fatigue System [VIDEO]

[Anton]

You missed it. I was talking about non-XP alternatives. Assume you hit surplus on your total XP counter. Any job you switch to will still factor into that total XP surplus. I was referring to NON-XP alternative options in this game. Please try to keep up.

There's a total xp surplus? No there isn't, where are you at? There's a per-job surplus, and theres like 20 jobs, so a potential of 20 surpluses. If there's a Physical XP surplus, I've never hit it.

[Gokulo]

There is actually, just hard to hit in OB with the current xp gain. And the only way for it to reset is to wait 1 week.

[Anton]

Ok, mah bad. But how hard are we talking here?

[Spider-Dan]

You missed it. I was talking about non-XP alternatives. Assume you hit surplus on your total XP counter. Any job you switch to will still factor into that total XP surplus. I was referring to NON-XP alternative options in this game. Please try to keep up.

Tell me one reason why I care about XP growth and not skill growth.

Seriously. In the current builds of the game, P.Level seems to be an afterthought.

[Acturus]

You could say the same thing about some normal vertical grind game, really. It's not exclusive to this system.

No, I couldn't. Vertical grind has no artificial cap or restriction placed on it. It has a measurable increase in the amount of effort required to achieve the next reward. but grinding still achieves results in the traditional model.

Since a player can reach a point where each of his level acquisition goals have been artifically held back in a given period of time, then there is greater emphasis on non-leveling pursuits.

[Lucavi]

There's a total xp surplus? No there isn't, where are you at? There's a per-job surplus, and theres like 20 jobs, so a potential of 20 surpluses. If there's a Physical XP surplus, I've never hit it.

Yes. There. Is. You should really stop talking like you know everything in this game.

@SD: XP growth determines your stat points. Those are instantly tallied into your current class, instantly making the class, and any class you switch to, instantly stronger. You seriously don't care about having your total XP nerfed across ANY class you decide to play at a given time over the week?

If you don't, I don't know what to say. I, however, care, especially when I see my HP and MP fly up with each point of vit/mnd I put in at each level.

Edit: This isn't some "the sky is falling!" post. Its very hard to hit class XP in OB, and even harder to hit total XP surplus. I hit it extremely briefly, and that was after 2 days of good grinding across 3 jobs using lots of guardian standing to boost my XP. It all just reinforces my point that while the system works well enough now, the -concept- of potentially having my XP - ANY OF MY XP - limited by the devs because I'm "playing too hard", irks me.

If it doesn't irk you, so be it, but don't try to act like you can't understand how it would bother someone else from a conceptual standpoint.

[Spider-Dan]

Vertical grind has no artificial cap or restriction placed on it.

You're using an entirely arbitrary definition of "artificial." Is it an "artificial" cap on character growth if SE declares, by fiat, that it takes 50k skill points to rank up instead of 5k? There are only 168 hours in a week, so if SE simply calculates max amount of xp/sp per hour, they can rather easily set per-level requirements to that standard. The end result is the same for grinders, but you punish the casual players.

[Hyan]

No, I couldn't. Vertical grind has no artificial cap or restriction placed on it. It has a measurable increase in the amount of effort required to achieve the next reward. but grinding still achieves results in the traditional model.

Neither has horizontal grind, here. Yet you don't say the same thing about a game where horizontal grind is artificially held back? It's the other side of the same coin.

Since a player can reach a point where each of his level acquisition goals have been artifically held back in a given period of time, then there is greater emphasis on non-leveling pursuits.

No player can realistically reach this point. You can always become better horizontally. Leveling pursuit is just as big part of this game as it is in a vertically progressive game.

[Spider-Dan]

@SD: XP growth determines your stat points. Those are instantly tallied into your current class, instantly making the class, and any class you switch to, instantly stronger.

Great. Now, in actual practice, why do I care? What's the difference?

In FFXI, if I could somehow use a LV30 RDM that had the INT/MND/etc of a LV45 RDM, but couldn't use Convert or cast Refresh or Dispel, who would care? What real difference does it make?

You're basically talking about racial/whitebox-type differences. And given that the hardcore grinders will still have p.levels far above casual players anyway (which is the entire point of whiteboxing: "I'm better than you"), I doubt it's going to be an issue. Abilities define the class.

[Acturus]

You're using an entirely arbitrary definition of "artificial." Is it an "artificial" cap on character growth if SE declares, by fiat, that it takes 50k skill points to rank up instead of 5k? There are only 168 hours in a week, so if SE simply calculates max amount of xp/sp per hour, they can rather easily set per-level requirements to that standard. The end result is the same for grinders, but you punish the casual players.

Following Hyan's logic, the vertical grind, being the traditional model, establishes the "norm" for leveling in an MMO. This fatigue system, as an alternative to that norm, exists as an alternative by placing a solid block in the path of the player. This is what I would call an artificial restriction. The word seems applicable in this situation.

Semantics aside, I disagree with your position. Comparing FFXI, especially leveling post 50, to FFXIV, you could always see that even if it takes 50K to get from level X to level X+1, a player can still go out, grind, and retain every point he achieves between 0 and 50,000 in that time period. The next time that player loads the game, he's still however much closer to X+1 thanks to that previous grind.

With this fatigue system, there is potential for the player's playtime to be valued at 0. Zero. The player gains no quantitative increase for his efforts. And this isn't some "what if" situation. We've been told that this is how it happens.

I get what you're saying, vertical grind is restrictive, punishes casual players, etc. etc. I don't disagree with that notion. But this alternative still punishes players, just the players on the other side of the coin. Different is not automatically better, and this fatigue system, while different, does nothing but flip the argument from "hurting casual players" to "hurting non-casual players".

[Hyan]

I get what you're saying, vertical grind is restrictive, punishes casual players, etc. etc. I don't disagree with that notion. But this alternative still punishes players, just the players on the other side of the coin. Different is not automatically better, and this fatigue system, while different, does nothing but flip the argument from "hurting casual players" to "hurting non-casual players".

Actually, it hurts those who only want to develop vertically instead of those who would like to develop horizontally. I don't think there's an issue of casual vs. hardcore here, because hardcore will still get ahead by being a lot more advanced horizontally than casuals.

But I don't think "choice" in this case is a bad thing (and by choice I mean the option to play different type of games, instead of all games being the same).

[Anton]

With this fatigue system, there is potential for the player's playtime to be valued at 0. Zero. The player gains no quantitative increase for his efforts. And this isn't some "what if" situation. We've been told that this is how it happens.

But it doesn't, because you change class, and you're off to the races. Apparently, even physical Xp has a cap, that you 'have to try to reach' to reach. But who cares, you can always grow horizontally.

[Lucavi]

Actually, it hurts those who only want to develop vertically instead of those who would like to develop horizontally. I don't think there's an issue of casual vs. hardcore here, because hardcore will still get ahead by being a lot more advanced horizontally than casuals.

But I don't think "choice" in this case is a bad thing (and by choice I mean the option to play different type of games, instead of all games being the same).

If someone hits the surplus on pure physical class, it hurts them across all jobs by slowing down their stat point growth. I can't see how that benefits anyone, or any part of that individual person's character.

Keep the class surplus if you must, but do away with the character XP surplus. If a person hits character surplus, the game is basically telling them "stop doing anything that gives XP. Stop crafting, stop leveling another class, stop everything."

I cannot agree with a system that would do that to a paying customer, even if you can still keep leveling individual classes on the side. You're still not getting 100% of your effort when playing the game. Its wrong.

[Hyan]

Hmm

I always saw PL's as inferior to class ranks, but yeah I guess? I wouldn't care, but maybe I'm missing something amazing about those levels.

[Kurokikaze]

I dont get why all the beef about surplus on Physical... The way its set up... It's almost impossible to hit it in a week. I did a fuck ton of grinding in that week and got to 20 Physical and still no surplus on it.

[Anton]

I dont get why all the beef about surplus on Physical... The way its set up... It's almost impossible to hit it in a week. I did a fuck ton of grinding in that week and got to 20 Physical and still no surplus on it.

You would need to have some sort of nervous tick in your wrists that engages mobs in your sleep to even come close. I was surprised there even was a cap on Phys XP

[Hyan]

The theoretical exp curve that was posted some time ago kinda made it seem like PL tnl raises more like a normal exp curve in MMO's usually does, a bit exponentially.

I don't think there's a need for fatigue system for PL, but if the threshold is that high anyway- whatever.

[Lucavi]

Its pretty damned high. You'd have to probably take a week off of work and do the ol' FFXI 14-hour supra-party to hit it, only this time across multiple jobs/professions. Again, its not QQing over the application of it, just the concept of it.

[Anton]

But every MMO has some sort of limiting system so you
Pay more money
Unlock the content rather than hand it to you(pay more money)
Have to invest more time(pay more money)

It's like "I know the sky is blue, but it's the concept of light refraction that irks me"

[Spider-Dan]

Keep the class surplus if you must, but do away with the character XP surplus. If a person hits character surplus, the game is basically telling them "stop doing anything that gives XP. Stop crafting, stop leveling another class, stop everything."

I cannot agree with a system that would do that to a paying customer, even if you can still keep leveling individual classes on the side. You're still not getting 100% of your effort when playing the game. Its wrong.

The very nature of this statement is disingenuous.

The developers decide how fast you "should" be advancing in the game. This is true for literally every MMO ever, and there's no way around it. Since gaining xp, in and of itself, does nothing unless/until you gain a level, even in non-fatigued games the devs intentionally limit your progress when they set the exp-TNLs.

The argument against surplus exp is that players shouldn't be limited in exping more than the devs think they should, but removing surplus exp does nothing to solve that, since you literally cannot gain levels faster than the devs think you should.

In most games (e.g. XI), this is accomplished by setting TNLs to an appropriately time-sink-worthy amount. XIV gets around this by dramatically boosting the (relative) rate of advancement, but tapering it off when you advance farther than the devs think you should.

Ultimately, the argument boils down to, "Do the players have the right to advance more quickly than SE desires?" And that's the problem: the question itself is fatally flawed, since it's impossible to advance more quickly than SE desires. It's a dumb question to ask.

The only real issue is whether or not Squenix should more cleverly camouflage their idea of how fast a player should advance. And that's the really sad part: by putting this all out in the open, SE is facing a backlash, whereas if they just made ridiculous TNLs (say, 100 times what they are now) and then threw in a weekly bonus that gives you a 100x XP/SP boost, none of these complaints would even exist.