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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    My ass. The game launched with almost zero mana regeneration abilities, no transport, no reasonable accuracy boosting gear, no stealth abilities, etc. 3k/hour would have been god mode.

    As it is, even with all of that sh*t introduced, 3k/hr was considered reasonable xp rate (with 5-6k considered elite) until late 2005. (Exceptional 75s could get more than that in merit parties, but any claim of 8k+ would have elicited calls for proof.) Given the amount of time you could expect to sit in town either waiting for an invite or waiting for the right jobs to pop, leveling from 47-48 in 2004 would have been 3.5-4 hours, easy... assuming you did it all in one shot.

    Please do not try to sell a bunch of FFXI players on the idea that FFXI is not a grind. Take that sh*t to a general gaming board where someone might buy it.
    Sorry, you might actually want to go back and do your research and you'll find out that the Japanese reached the cap in FFXI very quickly when it was first released. There was a big stink about it on 2ch because there was practically nothing to do when they got to what was endgame at the time. You don't have to take my word for it, you can run a few google searches if you have time to waste on it. I don't really care what you think might have been the case but I actually cared enough about the game before it was released stateside to keep tabs on it while playing other games and I definitely remember this much. If reaching the level cap in a matter of weeks is massive grind to you then I really don't know what to say.

  2. #142
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    My ass. The game launched with almost zero mana regeneration abilities, no transport, no reasonable accuracy boosting gear, no stealth abilities, etc. 3k/hour would have been god mode.

    As it is, even with all of that sh*t introduced, 3k/hr was considered reasonable xp rate (with 5-6k considered elite) until late 2005. (Exceptional 75s could get more than that in merit parties, but any claim of 8k+ would have elicited calls for proof.) Given the amount of time you could expect to sit in town either waiting for an invite or waiting for the right jobs to pop, leveling from 47-48 in 2004 would have been 3.5-4 hours, easy... assuming you did it all in one shot.

    Please do not try to sell a bunch of FFXI players on the idea that FFXI is not a grind. Take that sh*t to a general gaming board where someone might buy it.

    Quoting this because I'm amazed that people don't remember this shit.


    FFXI wasn't a xp grind...omg has the world gone full retard?

  3. #143
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    I'm talking about 1-50 here, where 3k/hr means even at the highest attainable level, you would get a level in little over 2 hours.
    You guys don't seem to realize that NA launch was NOT the launch of FFXI and the lack of MP restoration abilities, etc barely even comes into play because it's not like refresh was even a thought until 41 which means you'd have less than 10 levels to take in the benefits of it anyway. Not to mention that shit like sushi is highly ineffective at the lower levels anyhow in comparison to how much it helps at higher levels... it's just not even worth trying to compare the XI you know to the original, pre-zilart FFXI with all those differences and the lack of travel options barely meant shit since the world was a lot smaller pre-zilart and pre-CoP

  4. #144
    Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anton View Post
    No, you were talking about unfathomable amounts of grinding, and you were off by a full area code, if not several states. But let's say you WERE talking about exp, and not Kazham keys, the Genkei quests, Af quests, the weapon trials, 'merits', or the endless partying... oh wait you were.

    How'd I just do that? You want to play a game with no impediments to anything? Play Phantasy Star Online. You will have everything you ever wanted within... 2 weeks, tops. And then you will leave, because there's nothing left.

    FFXI had no surplus system. Right. So there were no impediments to levelling? SO FUCKIN' WRONG. I tried to explain every game will have a method. I tried to explain why. Keep that typed reply to yourself.
    I don't really agree with Baffle either, and I wasn't around earlier when you guys were going back and forth about this, but I've gotta say, you're a real asshole. It's pretty evident all on it's own, and there are plenty of easy ways to point out why he was wrong without being a complete dick. Way to be an adult.

    And for the record, ultimately, I'm not happy that I can't just grind out one job. That's how I like doing things, just binging one class/job/set of missions/whatever at a time till it's done, then moving on. I'm better when I focus like that, and have more fun. I don't really care about surplus anymore, pretty apathetic about it, but to someone who can play for long periods (something I can't really do anymore) and likes to focus on one class at a time, this is kind of a buzzkill. I'm pretty sure that was, in the end, simply what he was trying to say he was upset about originally, despite the absolutely horrible analogies that derailed the point.

  5. #145
    New Odin
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    Every game is a buzzkill to someone.

  6. #146
    Ridill
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    S-E will still make it a grind, surplus or not ^_^

  7. #147
    New Odin
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    Water is also wet o=

  8. #148
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  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by miokomioko View Post
    Do you play FFXIII with only a group of 3 Sentinels because that's how you want to play it?
    Do you play FFXI with no sub-jobs because that's how you want to play it?
    Do you play (pre-zodiac) FFXII while keeping your characters' stats/weapons/abilities true to one single job because that's how you want to play it?

    Even if you honestly did any of those things, there's nothing wrong with it other than the fact that you're making it more difficult for yourself and essentially, to put it in the simplest terms, making yourself "gimp." No one's telling you how TO play, they are telling you how the game IS played.
    Firstly: trying to draw comparisons between a console RPG and a MMORPG is liking comparing apples and oranges. The former is static (excluding DLC which function solely because of the established gaming engine). The latter is dynamic, ever-changing, etc.

    That throws all your above comments out. In addition to my above comment, I'll state that subjobs were an integral part of the game-balance. The only subjob we absolutely ever needed to use (and people can argue otherwise) was ninja on paladin job. Maybe if Tiamat didn't hit me for 800 damage on a critical or 500 on an Aegis block, another subjob may have been useful. Thus, that particular scenario is both a product of SE's intention for Paladin (other tank jobs are included as well) as well as players assimilating to a poorly designed game mechanic that we all knew had zero chance of ever being adjusted (read: FIXED).

    The fatigue system is telling us how to play the game. Regardless of whether you level job A to fatigue, then job B to fatigue, then C, and so on (including any permutations of stopping at any percentage of total fatigue on any job whatsoever), SE is telling us that there will be a limit on how you play the game. It is also telling us how the game is played, but leaves no wiggle-room to play it otherwise. As such, they are not only slowing down levelling progression, but also discovery and innovation (the latter to a lesser extent).

    I cannot see how else to make this clear. I am not stating it is a bad thing or a good thing, just that this is the way it is. It is left solely up to each person to determine the worth of the system and whether or not they want to be bound by it (yes, bound by it, that means it IS how it's played and it IS how you WILL play). It just takes a little objectivity and a lot less White Knighting to see this.

  10. #150

    I just got slain by the White Knight. That's what I get for being the most vocal of the 3 who instantly saw a flaw in his argument, that "Fatigue is a morally flawed system oh how I miss the grind free days of FFXI why can't every MMO just be easy to level up?" Whatever, you want to defend that, feel free. I had to be reminded to remember it.

    So where were we?

    Firstly: trying to draw comparisons between a console RPG and a MMORPG is liking comparing apples and oranges. The former is static (excluding DLC which function solely because of the established gaming engine). The latter is dynamic, ever-changing, etc.
    Well in this case I think it's valid. In FFXII, you could be superman, or you could be a gun guy. Most people opted for superman.

    The fatigue system is telling us how to play the game. Regardless of whether you level job A to fatigue, then job B to fatigue, then C, and so on (including any permutations of stopping at any percentage of total fatigue on any job whatsoever), SE is telling us that there will be a limit on how you play the game. It is also telling us how the game is played, but leaves no wiggle-room to play it otherwise. As such, they are not only slowing down levelling progression, but also discovery and innovation (the latter to a lesser extent).
    Fatigue only dictates to the stubborn. There are many reasons why you should change class often in FFXIV. If you are JUST an Archer, sure you will be an archer. But it is also true you will not be quite as awesome as a Super Archer. Don't you want to be super? Besides, what would be your idea of "playing the game otherwise"? I'm curious.

    It is left solely up to each person to determine the worth of the system and whether or not they want to be bound by it (yes, bound by it, that means it IS how it's played and it IS how you WILL play)
    That's how many people approached the game in the Beta... Have the devs not explicitly stated the game will focus on situation adaptability? Well, thats what it's gonna be. This is very much like arguing against unlocking Ninja for one's PLD because you're convinced /WAR is the best way and, hey why should people dictate what you should and should not do? It's your money! No wait... better argument... one has to fight the system.

    This is War/Whm all over again. Being able to cure yourself is awesome and, hey why should people dictate what you should and should not do? No, thats not quite right either...

    This is like arguing you shouldn't have to level your 20NIN subjob because you hit RNG75 and why should you have to do extra work? You don't want to level a subjob, and you dont want to do any quests or farming, and this is pre-toau, so you just sit down in Jeuno and sulk because the system is so stacked against you, why can't you just party? There that's a good one, damn it's late

  11. #151
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    The fatigue systems fits the bill for the game design, there is no questioning that. I think what's bothering some is if it could have been done better or differently. If you throw out all the "stuff SE has told us about the game" and just played the beta, you would naturally find the utility in having skills from other jobs. Would you feel it was as important if SE had not emphasized it to you? Think about it.

    Sure, we are encouraged to play other classes because SE has told us adaptability is going to be the key to the game. But that is every single MMORPG encounter. There are specific setups (and then some variations) for every boss fight in every instance across every MMORPG and even console game. This doesn't make the fatigue system revolutionary. Perhaps people simply do not like being told what they can and cannot do (HEAR ME JOHN LOCKE!?). What the fatigue system is doing is placing a softcap on the amount of time we can spend playing a class before it starts becoming a non-lucrative use of time. Of course that is up to the player to decide, but there is an absolute threshold where exp will begin decreasing.

    You can keep right on playing that class until you go down to 90%...80%....50%... but eventually you'll hit rock-bottom. We will definitely find a way to maximize our time in the game anyway, which is why I don't feel it is necessarily bad, but certainly it limits your freedom, it does not increase it. It is the same freedom you would normally exercise given the design of the game encouraging you to switch jobs often to keep up with skills in other classes to share on your main class.

  12. #152

    i aprove this video

  13. #153

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksandra View Post
    FFXI wasn't a xp grind
    for 5 hrs tops it was a grind and thats close to nothing compared to other games.
    you after join pt's and so forth, as we all know from playing 11.
    im sure the same will work the same in 14 when we figure out how it works.
    not disagreeing, but ya, 11 wasnt, but even as a retired player with a 75 bst, i never found it as a grind.

  14. #154
    the whitest knight u' know
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    I think the word they were looking for was diversity, or versatility, or something along those lines... not freedom.

  15. #155
    New Merits
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    "FFXI wasn't a grind. You should have played at JP release... Gajin"

    And other stupid shit....

    Having sat down with the beta there's lots of things to bitch about. Fatigue isn't really one of them: Physical level impacts play about the same as rank level and gear level. And you're going to want a spread of job skills to round out your main.

    You outpace leve and anima recharge rates easily, but until players become much more efficient exping the cap is still very high.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    So basically, to combat this issue, SE should reword the text as follows:

    - every activity gives, say, 1% of current experience/skill points and 99% Bonus Experience/Skill Points
    - Bonus points degrade at the rate of 8 hour-units per week blahblah

    Now, it's no longer a punishment! It's a reward, because the word "bonus" is being used. You know, like rest bonus in WoW or exp boost from charged rings in FFXI.

    Problem solved!
    Actually the word "bonus" is already used.
    "Surplus" is now called "bonus"

    And sure. If the game was designed around being enjoyable at that 1% XP gain then there naturally wouldn't be any problem.
    But currently it's supposed to be feel at least so much less enjoyable that the player wants to switch to another class.
    But maybe I'm just silly for thinking games aren't purely arbitrary maths, but actually supposed to be fun.

  17. #157
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    I don't need a company that I pay telling me how to play the game.
    Yeah! I don't need SE telling me that RNG shouldn't be able to deal way more damage than every other DD and needs a major nerf... I pay them, not the other way around.

    And I'll be damned if SE is going to tell me that it takes 40k xp to gain a level. Who the hell do they think they are, telling me how long I need to xp to level up? I'll gain a level when I think I've spent enough time leveling. I'm the customer.

    Cliff notes: pretending that this one thing is "telling you how to play the game" but that EVERY OTHER PART OF THE GAME is not "telling you how to play the game" is absurd.

  18. #158
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domon Kasshu View Post
    Sorry, you might actually want to go back and do your research and you'll find out that the Japanese reached the cap in FFXI very quickly when it was first released.
    Sorry, you might want to try this line of reasoning on someone that wasn't playing this game in 2003.

    I don't need to "do research" to figure out how much of a grind it is to get to LV50; I simply have to remember what it was like when I leveled to 50! And this was in a version of the game with utsusemi, teleports, stealth, refresh, etc.

  19. #159
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    it's ok spider. Clearly it wasn't a grind 'cause, you know, Japanese don't grind. They got to 50 in a couple of weeks by only playing 30 min a day. (ontop of having TONS to do outside of just xping, they clearly we're not focused on it at all so couple weeks was fast!) And even though nothing changed xp-wise on NA release (in the 1-50 bracket), we must have gotten to 50 in a week and just forgot about it.

  20. #160
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    i started playing ffxi in 2004 and it took me over 2 years to reach RDM 75, BLM 37 and WHM 20+, playing almost everyday for at least 2-3 hrs.
    because of xp loss in deaths often i got negative xp in parties, especially after 60..

    it did felt like a grind..

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