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  1. #1
    Bard-turned-Miner
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    Miner Class Discussion Thread

    PATCH/UPDATE NOTES:

    Patch 1.22 Notes and Discussion

    Patch 1.21 - Official SE Notes
    • No major changes that apply to mining
    • Guild marks can be exchanged for materia or gil
    • New accessories do have gathering specific stats on them


    Patch 1.20 Notes & Discussion

    Patch 1.19 Notes


    ----------------------------

    • Patch 1.18 - July 2011
    • Base SP for gathering is approximately 150% of what it was pre-1.18.
    • There's an additional bonus for successfully gathering an item above your rank
    • Leves are VERY good SP; a set of two can bring in over 20k SP depending on conditions, and even as much as 40k if you use 2 company scrolls and have a bit of luck with Sweat of Brow. (This much is only possible at the first ranks a set of leves become available.)
    • Desaspected crystals are gone from gathering, but you can now randomly recieve Dark Matter
    • You can buy scrolls (with seals) from each of the company headquarters that give a bonus when gathering (up to ~5000 bonus SP)
    • There is r25 +output gear (body) in both Ul'dah's and Gridania's company headquarters. They are both very nice pieces and can get you an extra hit per node at many ranks. Test it out at each rank though, because sometimes there's no need to be wearing it.
    • Most of the grade 5 mining areas have a batch of aggro somewhere in them. Some of these zones have become very difficult to mine in. Dragonhead *might* actually be the safest place to mine now. There's talk that a future patch will introduce some sort of stealth abilities to avoid aggro.

    ----------------------------

    • Nov 2010 Patch - IMPORTANT NOTE: The November update makes some changes to the gathering classes, and some of what is reported in this thread is no longer correct or relevant. Discussion of the changes/update starts with post #176 on page 9. The most important things of note are that the loot tables completely changed, Prospect no longer triggers on lower level nodes, there are rank 20/30/40 leves for all cities, there is no longer a "something promising" message (bug? intentional?) and the hints you'll get as to which direction has a notch with a higher percentage chance of getting a particular item. Also mob placement has changed, and there are places with aggro that didn't have it before.
    • Early 2011 Patches - Two updates since the November 2010 patch have implemented the following changes: the animation speed for the gathering process is quicker, and many/most/all items from mining now stack to 99. You normally have to move old pre-patch items to and from your bazaar or retainer once to get them to stack over 12. Also, the cooldown timer for Prospect is now 30 seconds (down from 60).
    • April 2011 Patches - With a high enough class rank (as compared to the grade and rank of the item), and enough VIT, the success location on the circle will be in a fixed position. No real numbers are available on this, as at rank 50 I haven't found any items that aren't in a fixed position. Also, it's possible to turn in requested items to the mining guild (once per day) for a small amount of SP. You gain SP based on your current class, so you have to be on MIN to get MIN SP points. Finally, one of the patches greatly reduced equipment wear if you are of the appropriate rank and class. You still can get a stat benefit by equipping gear a few ranks early, but it will need considerable more repairs.

    =====================================

    I wanted to start a new thread for discussion of the Miner class. Unless a mod would like to unlock the old one (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/96577-Miner) I figured we could use this for class discussion.

    This thread has evolved into a good compilation of information from a number of different players. Thank you to everyone who has contributed! I will try to keep as much relevant information edited in this first post as my free time allows. Please keep in mind much of the discussion is still theoretical. While we're starting to get a firmer grasp of specific game mechanics, some stuff is simply still unknown.


    *** COMMONLY ASKED QUESTIONS
    • Can I find crystals while mining? --- No, at the moment there is no known way to get crystals. Miners do get two abilities, called Menphina's and Nald'thal's Ward (ice and fire, respectively) that "increase your chance to get ____ crystals". However, these items appear to help get shards, not crystals.
    • Where are the rank 20 leves? --- Leves of all ranks are now available from all cities. Doing a leve -- especially when the first become available -- with GA and a company manual gives *massive* amounts of EXP.
    • Gathering fatigue? Really? --- Now confirmed by the devs, gathering fatigue kicks in somewhere around or after 500 successful gathers. (This number was upped significantly in 1.19.) After hitting fatigue you will start to sometimes automatically fail your attempt. Keep grinding, and it will happen more often. This increases quickly, and eventually you will fail 90%+ of your attempts. This decreases over time (so, for example, 3 hours later you can get another small dose of mining in).
    • When can I do the class quests? --- The class quests are available from the miner's guild at ranks 20, 30 and 36. You have to be far enough along in the main story quests for them to be available.


    *** STATS AND WHAT THEY DO



    GATHERING - Gathering acts like a raw attack value vs the difficulty of the item. With more gathering, it can take less hits in the success zone to extract the item. Some items appear to be impossible without a specific amount of gathering (i.e Mythril Ore is a one-hit fail until 70/71 gathering).

    OUTPUT - Output, along with rank, determines how many attempts you have at a node before you have to find another one. If you normally get 4 attempts on a node, it may be possible to get 5 attempts at that rank instead. Note that at some ranks you cannot have enough +output to get to the next attempt. I prefer to think of it as getting access to an additional attempt 1-2 levels earlier than would otherwise be the case.

    PERCEPTION - Perception dictates how often a successful gather will be an HQ item. Under normal conditions, this appears to cap at 10% (lowest tested number is 88 perception, and gets 10% at level 50). However, while the ability Master of Rock is active, higher perception is more effective at upping the HQ rate.

    VIT & MND - Devs have said that VIT increases the size of the "hit zone" (i.e. how far off you can be during the second portion of the minigame and still count as a success). MND increases the chances of obtaining multiple items. Currently, however, all of the rare items are capped at 1 per gather.


    REMAINDER - Each specific item always starts with the exact same remainder bar. It becomes possible to predict what item (or set of items) you will get as soon as you see the bar. If an item tends to be in one part of the circle, you can adjust your initial strike for maximum effectiveness.

    GEAR DAMAGE - When a piece of gear hits 0%, you will lose the additional stats that gear gives.


    *** ABILITIES & GUILD MARKS - I'm not editing this section yet, but with 1.20 all abilities are learned automatically as you level up, and nothing needs purchased with Guild Marks. Beastkin Eluder was removed completely, and 1.19(?) added a stealth ability to help avoid aggro as you are mining.

    You'll learn the following abilities naturally as you rank up:
    ( 1 ) Lay of the Land
    ( 3 ) Prospect
    ( 8 ) Lay of the Land II
    ( 10 ) Prospect II
    ( 10 ) Sharp Vision
    ( 15 ) Earthen Favor
    ( 18 ) Lay of the Land III
    ( 25 ) King's Yield
    ( 28 ) Lay of the Land IV
    ( 30 ) Truth of Mountains
    ( 38 ) Lay of the Land V
    Not yet in game: ( 48 ) Lay of the Land VI

    Three abilities are purchasable from the outset:
    - Nald'thal's Ward
    - Menphina's Ward
    - Prospect III

    With the completion of the rank 20 mining quest, the following abilities are available for purchase with guild marks. They appear to all be available and working desipte any optimium rank that is on the description.
    - Beastkin Eluder
    - Deep Vigor
    - Solid Reason
    - Prospect IV

    After completing the rank 30 mining quest, the following are also available for purchase:
    - Stone Resolve
    - Prospect V

    Completing the rank 36 mining quest unlocks the final ability:
    - Master of Rock

    *** GEAR

    It's not hard to figure out what gear you want to try for. Right now each slot corresponds to a specific stat -- you never have to pick between two stat options. Body and Legs have gathering, Hands and Feet have Output, Head has perception, and Waist has both Output and Perception. You'll generally find a new piece of gear every ten levels. You can do a simple search on Zam for slot/stat/class to get a nice list of all the options available. Here's a sample list for the Body slot.

    *** RESOURCES & LINKS


    My original first post, encompassing information up to rank 16 (grades 1 and 2 nodes):
    Spoiler: show

    I'm currently up to rank 16 (grade 2) and would be happy to answer any questions that I can. I'll be able to do grade 3 locations soon. I'm also willing to update the first post will useful links/info.

    I haven't gone through all the database sites, but a number of them still seem to have outdated info on them. Here's a couple of random observations on my part to get things started.

    • Earthen Favor is rank 15.
    • La Noscea was nice for mining grade 2. It didn't seem to have as rare of items (no zinc, for example) but the points were a lot closer together so the mining went faster.
    • Prospect's Quick (II, at least) kicks in when you are over 200 yalms away.
    • When you use Lay of the Land, I've started opening the map and "plotting" the location based on distance and direction. If you can do quick calculations in your head, you'll probably know exactly where the point is going to be. Each grid on the map is 100 yalms. This doesn't work so well in La Noscea because there are a lot of small ridges that don't show up. Works great in others.
    • Good luck getting the Bronze Pickaxe crafted. From scratch it takes bronze materials (blacksmith), plus Carpentry, Weaver and Alchemist materials.


    The thing I'm most interested in hearing about (and I realize there probably aren't a lot of people super high in rank yet) is what mining & grades are like in the different dungeons and other non-starter zones.


    Rank 18 observations:
    Spoiler: show

    At rank 18 now, a few observations:

    • Grade 3 nodes (not unexpected) are pretty much an extension of grade 2 nodes.
    • The rarer items from grade 2 are a lot more common (raw lapis lazull), for example.
    • Only new item I've personally gotten was Wyvern Obsidian from a node at Bloodshore. I've read that regular obsidian is also available.
    • Rank 20 miner leves still seem to only be available from LL.
    • So far 2 of 4 level 20 leves have had guild marks, around 900 each time (goes up if you exchange completed leves).
    • Camp Horizon SUCKS. The nodes are really far apart (often more than 400 yalms), and you can get into areas with aggro problems. Add to the fact that...
    • Prospect III is bought with guild marks, without it Thanalan probably isn't worth attempting. I mined at Horizon for 45 minutes and couldn't dig up anything new to grade 3. (I'm sure there's something there, just haven't gotten it yet.)
    • La Noscea seemingly continues to be the best leveling spot for how close together the nodes are.
    • I can't remember the name, but I went into the dungeon right to the west of Bloodshore, and Lay of the Land III said that there weren't any mining nodes in the zone, period. (Edit: Cassiapa Hollow, or something?)
    • Only three abilities are available for guild mark purchase at my current level: Prospect III, and the two abilities that let you get fire and ice crystals.


    Edit: I have now also gotten obsidian and raw aquamarine from nodes around Bloodshore. Haven't been back to Thanalan yet.[/QUOTE]


    Rank 21 observations:
    Spoiler: show


    One of the stats directly effects how many times you can mine from a particular node, but I can't isolate which one. Updating all my gear, at rank 21, and I could finally mine a grade three point 4 times instead of 3. Trying different combinations I couldn't get it to drop back down without changing my pickaxe. I'd like to assume "Output" is the stat for that, but knowing SE, who can say for sure? Anyways, here's the range where this kicked in. Gathering is between 23-36, Output between 13-27, and perception between 15-30.

    I really wish I had gear with the stats that would let me narrow down that range more.

    At this point, I'm assuming...

    Output is number of attempts at a node (only other logical thing I can think of is quantity of items received)...

    Gathering is either the range of how close you have to be for success, or an "attack value" determining if the gathering is successful or needs another hit...'

    Scanning/Perception is either the range of how close you have to be for success, or something else that I can't think of. I don't see how it could have anything to do with Lay of the Land or Prospect, but it might.

    Again, these are all assumptions at this point.

    Edit: with the new gear, I definitely feel like I can get rare stuff easier, sometimes with one strike in a best case scenario. Before, in a worst case scenario, I've struck the zone three times in a row and still damaging the ore. Long story short, 18+ is when I would suggest starting to make a serious effort to get decent gear.


    A little info on the rank 20 miner guild quest:
    Spoiler: show



    - All the prospects share the same recast timer, as do all the lay of the lands. I guess I see why they did that, but it's a little disappointing. I was hoping to be able to alternate between two of them while running through lower level zones.

    - At level 20, if you've gone far enough in the main storyline quests, you should be able to start the first Miner's Guild quest "A Piece of History". It's a lot of running around, but not hard at all. One note, when they point out the areas where you can find items, it isn't that exact location. But if you find the nearest mining point to it, you should have no problems finding what you are looking for.

    - Reward is 20k gil, 2000 guild marks, and access to Beastkin Eluder, Deep Vigor, Solid Reason and Prospect IV. There's a good walkthrough in the Zam forums, as much as I'd rather not plug that site. There's no mention on the description of ANY of these abilities about an optimal rank.


    Rank 25 observations:
    Spoiler: show


    • Already reported elsewhere, but there is not a new class quest at 25. It should be at 30, however.
    • At 25, level 30 leves unlock in Ul'dah. They are in the Horizon area, specifically at N-something wells.
    • They are exactly the same style of leve as all the other camps.
    • They are grade 4 nodes, and at 25 with pretty good equipment it could still be tough to hit stuff. Certainly node 4+ items were nearly impossible to get (most often a 1-hit fail). Getting the HQ items for that version leve didn't seem as bad, but it can take a full 1-2 nodes just to get one item.
    • Small aggro concerns from Footpads, but really didn't seem to be a problem.
    • The evaluate mining spots leve will send you inside the mesa rock formations, and you need to know what to look for on the map for the entrances. It's the squiggly lines at one of the corners that will have an opening.
    • Despite the difficulty, the skill points were really good and I got 6000 from the 2 leves (with favor). The base guild marks for one of the leves was ~1500.
    • I don't know if this is true of other regions as well, but this means that technically there are both grade 3 and grade 4 nodes in the same zone.
    • King's Yield is 7 points to set, and it hasn't kicked in once for me yet.
    • After upgrading to Iron Pickaxe, the ONLY grade 3 item that wasn't a 1-hit success was obsidian. (I'd imagine other regions would have an item as well, like blacklip oyster. Still haven't mined grade 3 Ul'dah to any extent). It's late, so I can't remember what testing I did, but earlier I was chalking this up to the gathering stat.
    • I started to see gathering fatigue yesterday and today. You start to get critical fails on items/situations where you shouldn't. It seemed to be multi-tiered, at first I'd "autofail" about 1/3rd of the attempts, after a short while closer to 2/3rds. This really hurts if you are trying to grind out the last little bit of a level.
    • After taking a break for about 2 hours, I got about 30 minutes more of good mining before it set in again. After being logged out for about 8-10 hours, I got almost another whole level in before it came back.
    • In terms of trying to grind skill points, I think that output is a crucial stat. Getting an extra hit or two in per node comparatively makes a noticeable difference in how quickly you can level up.


  2. #2

    The hardest thing for the pickaxe is the pickaxe head. Luckily I found one in a bazaar randomly - the rest of the stuff is fairly easy to find or you can buy from NPCs. The actual synth is ~lv3 carpentry. I've found Gridania to be the best for gathering so far, but that's partly because I do both botany and mining. It's impossible to miss points while running around there because the paths are so narrow.

    You can re-gather at a point after gathering at two other points. It doesn't matter if it's a tree, a harvest spot, a quarrying spot, whatever. If you mine a node then log a tree and harvest some bushes, you can go back to that node and mine it again.

  3. #3
    Puppetmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by qpoiuwer View Post
    The hardest thing for the pickaxe is the pickaxe head. Luckily I found one in a bazaar randomly - the rest of the stuff is fairly easy to find or you can buy from NPCs. The actual synth is ~lv3 carpentry. I've found Gridania to be the best for gathering so far, but that's partly because I do both botany and mining. It's impossible to miss points while running around there because the paths are so narrow.

    You can re-gather at a point after gathering at two other points. It doesn't matter if it's a tree, a harvest spot, a quarrying spot, whatever. If you mine a node then log a tree and harvest some bushes, you can go back to that node and mine it again.
    I found a couple Bronze Pickaxes in the market wards for 5-10k gil, so I don't even see why you'd bother going to the trouble of getting it crafted.

  4. #4
    Bard-turned-Miner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhavans View Post
    I found a couple Bronze Pickaxes in the market wards for 5-10k gil, so I don't even see why you'd bother going to the trouble of getting it crafted.
    May be server specific then, but on mine I haven't seen a single one in any bazaar ever, and only twice have I seen a player using one while out in the field. Believe me, I wish it were that easy.

  5. #5

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhavans View Post
    I found a couple Bronze Pickaxes in the market wards for 5-10k gil, so I don't even see why you'd bother going to the trouble of getting it crafted.
    Where do you think those people got their pickaxes?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by qpoiuwer View Post
    Where do you think those people got their pickaxes?
    I'm just saying why go to the trouble yourself if there are plenty others willing to bash their head against a wall to craft one. I guess it's just my server if other servers don't seem to have them in the market wards. I just assumed they were easy to find based on my limited experience, guess I was wrong.

  7. #7
    Melee Summoner
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    I have the bronze-plummed pickaxe and it's the only one I've seen on Selbina. I had to cough up 150k to get it though. Some servers are more structured than others I assume with weapon crafting. >.>

  8. #8
    Bard-turned-Miner
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    At rank 18 now, a few observations:

    • Grade 3 nodes (not unexpected) are pretty much an extension of grade 2 nodes.
    • The rarer items from grade 2 are a lot more common (raw lapis lazull), for example.
    • Only new item I've personally gotten was Wyvern Obsidian from a node at Bloodshore. I've read that regular obsidian is also available.
    • Rank 20 miner leves still seem to only be available from LL.
    • So far 2 of 4 level 20 leves have had guild marks, around 900 each time (goes up if you exchange completed leves).
    • Camp Horizon SUCKS. The nodes are really far apart (often more than 400 yalms), and you can get into areas with aggro problems. Add to the fact that...
    • Prospect III is bought with guild marks, without it Thanalan probably isn't worth attempting. I mined at Horizon for 45 minutes and couldn't dig up anything new to grade 3. (I'm sure there's something there, just haven't gotten it yet.)
    • La Noscea seemingly continues to be the best leveling spot for how close together the nodes are.
    • I can't remember the name, but I went into the dungeon right to the west of Bloodshore, and Lay of the Land III said that there weren't any mining nodes in the zone, period. (Edit: Cassiapa Hollow, or something?)
    • Only three abilities are available for guild mark purchase at my current level: Prospect III, and the two abilities that let you get fire and ice crystals.


    Edit: I have now also gotten obsidian and raw aquamarine from nodes around Bloodshore. Haven't been back to Thanalan yet.

  9. #9
    Bard-turned-Miner
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    So at rank 19-20, I'm starting to feel for the first time that I need upgraded gear (which I've since started my hunt for). I'm damaging iron and obsidian waaaaay to easily, sometimes on the second and third strike (I'm used to getting 4 strikes on a node most times, which hasn't been happening lately).

    I've got a question: Is scanning and perception supposed to be the same thing? Scanning is a stat on the pickaxes, but on the actual gear screen I get the same number in perception. I'm guessing it's just a mistranslation, but I wasn't sure.

  10. #10
    Bard-turned-Miner
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    Anyone reading these?

    One of the stats directly effects how many times you can mine from a particular node, but I can't isolate which one. Updating all my gear, at rank 21, and I could finally mine a grade three point 4 times instead of 3. Trying different combinations I couldn't get it to drop back down without changing my pickaxe. I'd like to assume "Output" is the stat for that, but knowing SE, who can say for sure? Anyways, here's the range where this kicked in. Gathering is between 23-36, Output between 13-27, and perception between 15-30.

    I really wish I had gear with the stats that would let me narrow down that range more.

    At this point, I'm assuming...

    Output is number of attempts at a node (only other logical thing I can think of is quantity of items received)...

    Gathering is either the range of how close you have to be for success, or an "attack value" determining if the gathering is successful or needs another hit...'

    Scanning/Perception is either the range of how close you have to be for success, or something else that I can't think of. I don't see how it could have anything to do with Lay of the Land or Prospect, but it might.

    Again, these are all assumptions at this point.

    Edit: with the new gear, I definitely feel like I can get rare stuff easier, sometimes with one strike in a best case scenario. Before, in a worst case scenario, I've struck the zone three times in a row and still damaging the ore. Long story short, 18+ is when I would suggest starting to make a serious effort to get decent gear.

  11. #11
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    I am definitely still reading these updates.

    Maybe this has been already established but, do the shards turn into crystal drops at higher miner rank and/or the grade of the mining spot?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by worldbfree View Post
    I am definitely still reading these updates.

    Maybe this has been already established but, do the shards turn into crystal drops at higher miner rank and/or the grade of the mining spot?
    I was hoping so, but so far haven't seen it. There are two abilities you get with marks that seem to let you get fire and ice crystals, that may be all we're ever able to get. The other two gathering classes have the same style abilities for the other 4 elements. I think there should be up to grade 6 nodes right now... maybe at the higher ones that will happen.

  13. #13
    the whitest knight u' know
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamison View Post
    I was hoping so, but so far haven't seen it. There are two abilities you get with marks that seem to let you get fire and ice crystals, that may be all we're ever able to get. The other two gathering classes have the same style abilities for the other 4 elements. I think there should be up to grade 6 nodes right now... maybe at the higher ones that will happen.
    Purchasable abilities/traits will become available when you meet their "Optimal Rank." e.g. You'll be able to buy ____kin Eluder at Rank 30.

  14. #14
    Melee Summoner
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    Definitely following this thread, thanks for sharing your observations.

    I wanted to ask what does everyone thinks of the two abilities bought with guild marks:

    Deep Vigor - temporarily increases vitality
    Solid Reason - temporarily increases mind

    Should we be putting our stats into MND and VIT? Botany gets STR and INT while Fishing gets DEX and PIE. The descriptions say "Requires Discipline of the Land", so could it be possible that STR and DEX are the prime stats for Miner and SE just wants us to level the other two DoL for their abilities if you we want max efficiency?

  15. #15
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    Its possible Vit/mnd are not used on miner and those abilities are ment for supporting you when you change classes but base stats seem more like placebo effect then anything else atm and would focus gathering/perception/output over vit/mind. Speaking of bought abilities tho I been looking at the two that increase odds of gathering crystals and was wondering has anyone got crystals from gathering yet? Do you need higher grade and/or elemental affinity for crystals or if you need these abilities to make them appear?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by miokomioko View Post
    Purchasable abilities/traits will become available when you meet their "Optimal Rank." e.g. You'll be able to buy ____kin Eluder at Rank 30.
    Can't verify anything myself, but I did read on another forum doing the first class quest unlocks all but three of the purchasable abilities/traits. Next time I get back to Ul'dah I'll be finishing the quest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nama View Post
    Its possible Vit/mnd are not used on miner and those abilities are ment for supporting you when you change classes but base stats seem more like placebo effect then anything else atm and would focus gathering/perception/output over vit/mind. Speaking of bought abilities tho I been looking at the two that increase odds of gathering crystals and was wondering has anyone got crystals from gathering yet? Do you need higher grade and/or elemental affinity for crystals or if you need these abilities to make them appear?
    To date, we've seen nothing that indicates you can get any crystal at any level except for using Menphina's Ward (ice) or Nald'thal's Ward (fire). I've read reports that even a grade 5 node gives shards, of course that person was severely underleved for that grade. It's going to be a couple of weeks until a few people get up to grade 4 or 5 to get more definitive results.

    I have a balance of stats in VIT/MND/INT/PIE because I also play THM... without serious testing we won't know what, if anything, VIT & MND actually do. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them (or maybe both) have something to do with how often traits like Earthen Favor fire off... but that's pure speculation.

  17. #17
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    I'm currently 24 and I've hit some Rank 4 and 5 spots in Thanlan to no luck on crystals. It could've been totally related to me being underlvl. I'll attempt to debunk a few myths in the coming weeks.

  18. #18
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    I'm guessing nodes have somewhere around 50-ish total hits in them. I personally hit a couple today for 30+ with no one else mining, and they still weren't showing as nearly depleted. Anyone have any data on that?

    Also, got the level 25 gloves, and at level 22 I get 7 output ... optimal rank gives +9. I think that's pretty good.

  19. #19
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    Thank you, your post has been very helpful. I just hit 16 and was wondering why I had not seen rank 20 leves yet, I must have failed to check LL. I wear a variety of +mining gear and at 16 I am able to mine 3 times in grade 3 zones, and once in grade 4 zones. Each time I am able to get about 3 hits in before failing.

    I am also interested in seeing how stats come into play for gathering. I have very high dex because I do goldsmithing, not sure if that negatively impacts my mining. I find that I get a lot of mines where I can't recieve the item right away (have to hit the same spot twice.)

  20. #20
    Salvage Bans
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    892
    BG Level
    5
    FFXI Server
    Sylph

    Peeking here and there at 14- since we have "unlimited" (?) amounts of reset Points per level- why not just try em all?

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