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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SephYuyX View Post
    It was never 7 hours, 5 hours at max, and thats if your pt sucks.
    Yeah, it was actually more, with 3-4k/hr parties.

    Not even considering the time you're not progressing at all, which easily doubled the time it took to level.

    Yet we don't even know what the real rate of xp will be before they fix the skill up system, and if they don't, it doesn't even matter anyway.

  2. #62

    Quote Originally Posted by SephYuyX View Post
    It was never 7 hours, 5 hours at max, and thats if your pt sucks. It only takes a little over an hour now to get a level past 75. You can go from 80 to 85 in one sitting easily. So applying your XI logic back to XIV it will take 10 hours to get to just level 50. Unless they plan on ramping up the XP severly thats going to be a world of hurt to get to lvl 70 in XIV.

    Thats fucking ridiculous.
    Wasn't it 35k to get from 74 to 75? Remember back in the day, before merit parties, before melee burns, where 5-6k/hour was considered a great party?

    Considering that we're only a month into the game, I would definitely say that this is considered "back in the day", and the game 2-3 years from now is not going to resemble this hardly at all.

  3. #63

    You also lost XP on death in FFXI, and you don't in this game, so that might be another reason the gap seems higher, people won't be xping on their mains when they hit 50 like they did back in FFXI (Correct me if im wrong about the xp loss on xp, but ive yet to see it and I doubt it would only come into play at rank 50)


    It was never 7 hours, 5 hours at max, and thats if your pt sucks. It only takes a little over an hour now to get a level past 75. You can go from 80 to 85 in one sitting easily. So applying your XI logic back to XIV it will take 10 hours to get to just level 50. Unless they plan on ramping up the XP severly thats going to be a world of hurt to get to lvl 70 in XIV.
    I'm pretty sure it took some people a good portion of a year to hit lvl 75 in FFXI at the start of Zilart if they weren't hardcore leveling for hours a day. Games evolve, if the cap of FFXIV is increased to 75 come March, I would hope the skill point system randomness will be addressed at that point. There are people almost rank 50 already, and the game has only been out for about a month. Those people are hardcore grinders, but I know more casual players who are 30-35 already. Myself i'm 25LNC, 19 CRP and 18LW and I only skill up maybe every 3 days, and skill up my crafts the other 2 days off and on.

  4. #64
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    Sweet casual vs hardcore debate thread, mod should change the title of the thread

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meresgi View Post
    It's an actual common fact that the leveling curve IS what is is in MMOs to halt players from blasting to end game within a week of launch. If you don't believe that then i'm not sure what rock you've been living under all this time. Every MMO on the market uses a system like this, if it's not fatigue, it's a steep xp grind curve, or some other method if corralling players along. The fatigue system isn't even that bad, 4 people from my linkshell just continue to level through red fatigue, and have yet to actually hit the 0% cap (they are around rank 37 or 38 now I believe).
    The fuck are you babbling about? I'm talking about people assuming, as was assumed in that fan-made video, that the purpose of Fatigue was limit progress along an easy leveling curve, so that casual and hardcore players would level at the same rate.

  6. #66
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    When did people forget that grinding is content?

  7. #67

    Quote Originally Posted by Priran View Post
    The fuck are you babbling about? I'm talking about people assuming, as was assumed in that fan-made video, that the purpose of Fatigue was limit progress along an easy leveling curve, so that casual and hardcore players would level at the same rate.
    It is a limit to leveling rate much like an XP curve, just that unlike a regular lvling curve, spending more time doesn't not overcome the limit. Maybe I read what you said wrong, but it sounded like you were stating that surplus was not put in place as method to try to limit the speed of leveling in the game.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by SephYuyX View Post
    It was never 7 hours, 5 hours at max, and thats if your pt sucks.
    wat. when the only camp was deco weapons or aura statues, and 12k/hr was a godly pt mostly unheard of you'd get a standard, normal exp pt of ~5-6k/hr

    that's 7-8 hours, if you were a MNK or a mage, and got in a KRT PT, yeah it was like 5 hr, and if you managed to get into the early WAR pts, 4 hr sounds right.

    then you know toau, aern elementals, and finally abyssea made this all obsolete

    i mean i find comparing ffxi as it is now to ffxiv is kind of silly if only because one game has had 8 years of adjustments and content additions


    that said, xiv is a bigger grind than xi yes

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyan View Post
    And the sad thing is, the more biased you are the less likely you are to listen to reason.
    Biased against what, exactly? I stopped playing FFXIV. I play FFIV every day, religiously. I have FFVII's OST in my car. It's on at least thrice a week.

    Which way on the scale am I? Am I a hater because XIV, thus far, is destined for the bargin bin, or am I some fanboy because I love and appreciate the classics?

    Also, where is this "reason" you speak of. What is the "reasonable" approach to this game? A person has paid between 50-80 bucks for a game that is absolute tripe in its current form. Is it even "reasonable" to expect that said person should be happy with their purchase? Is it "reasonable" to consider the fact that they may not continue paying for the game?

    @Rocl, XIV is a bigger grind than XI, and a less fun grind at that. Grind or not, once things got rolling in XI, you were humming along in a decent rhythm, making xp chains and progressing. This game is all over the place with actual, tangible progression. Its like taking the weapon skillup system of XI, where some warrior gets rampage right as he levels, but some dark knight gets guillotine 3 hours into dinging because of the RNG skillups, and both were capped coming in.

    Random sucks. Why you would shove all of a player's level progression into random is beyond me.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    Biased against what, exactly? I stopped playing FFXIV. I play FFIV every day, religiously. I have FFVII's OST in my car. It's on at least thrice a week.

    Which way on the scale am I? Am I a hater because XIV, thus far, is destined for the bargin bin, or am I some fanboy because I love and appreciate the classics?

    Also, where is this "reason" you speak of. What is the "reasonable" approach to this game? A person has paid between 50-80 bucks for a game that is absolute tripe in its current form. Is it even "reasonable" to expect that said person should be happy with their purchase? Is it "reasonable" to consider the fact that they may not continue paying for the game?
    You sound like a pretty normal fan (not fanboy) who likes the old FF's and hates the new ones, but that isn't completely true.

    The problem is that you put too much emphasis on your opinion while dismissing logic. You have emotional bond to XI and to WoW, negative and positive. While sometimes you can put these factors aside and look at the games objectively, sometimes it doesn't seem like it. You are not neutral, but neither am I.

    Then again, what am I? I dislike FF's one through eight and aren't fond of most games released by SE during that time either.

    Anyway, objective approach is the reasonable approach. Not many can do it. Those disappointed by their purchase even less.

    a less fun grind at that.
    2002 XI grinding doesn't sound so fun to me.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by #686578 View Post
    When did people forget that grinding is content?
    When the grinding stopped being fun or rewarding in any way, shape, or form. When it's slow and/or frustrating (e.g. random SP gain, ridiculous TNLs, mob placement that makes you spend more time running than fighting - and I'm not just talking about FF14 here!) you start to focus on the negatives simply because you're not having fun.

  12. #72

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooom View Post
    When the grinding stopped being fun or rewarding in any way, shape, or form.
    Its never been fun or rewarding, that's why its called a grind.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruiser View Post
    Wasn't it 35k to get from 74 to 75? Remember back in the day, before merit parties, before melee burns, where 5-6k/hour was considered a great party?

    Considering that we're only a month into the game, I would definitely say that this is considered "back in the day", and the game 2-3 years from now is not going to resemble this hardly at all.
    Actually I want to say it was MUCH higher as far as the exp per a lvl was required and I want to say it was closer if not greater than 60k once in the 70's. I can't say for certain since its from memory but exp for 50+ was cut around '05 and started out small but was closer to 40% the original cap once you hit the 70-75. 5-7k was pretty good for back then unless it was a KRT party. Other than that, most players were leveling away in Sky, Moon, the Ifrit's cauldron, KRT, terrigan or wherever. Let's face it, ToAU and CoP pretty much killed these old zones for exping lol!

    But I think what makes ff14 feel like it "drags" is that it has a sense of being a "sandbox" mmo (as in little to no direction as to what to do or where to go) and little content right now. Most of us in FF11 would have nation missions ~> choco pass~> kazham keys ~> dragon mission ~> adv. job quests ~> relic wpn ~> af quest + lvl cap quests. It felt that with something to "look forward to" every 5/10 lvls, it kept you hooked. Getting used to stuff in ff14 with the lack of overall party play and familiarity and not as much to look forward to goal wise, I can see why it seems dry at the moment as far as the content department is concerned. I mean first time I played FF11, seeing Quifim was a pretty awesome experience and the transition to Kazham, Garliage and Crawlers kept things exciting as well. From what I can tell most of the players who are at least "content" are 20+ while most of those annoyed are under that range.

  14. #74

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldoras View Post
    But I think what makes ff14 feel like it "drags" is that it has a sense of being a "sandbox" mmo (as in little to no direction as to what to do or where to go) and little content right now. Most of us in FF11 would have nation missions ~> choco pass~> kazham keys ~> dragon mission ~> adv. job quests ~> relic wpn ~> af quest + lvl cap quests. It felt that with something to "look forward to" every 5/10 lvls, it kept you hooked. Getting used to stuff in ff14 with the lack of overall party play and familiarity and not as much to look forward to goal wise, I can see why it seems dry at the moment as far as the content department is concerned. I mean first time I played FF11, seeing Quifim was a pretty awesome experience and the transition to Kazham, Garliage and Crawlers kept things exciting as well. From what I can tell most of the players who are at least "content" are 20+ while most of those annoyed are under that range.
    Just want to point out the obvious, that almost everything you mentioned wasn't in 11 for YEARS. We have nation missions, that's the main storyline. advanced job quests, relic weapons, AF quest, level cap quests, all that came after Rise of Zilart. MMOs just don't have a lot of content at release, I think that's pretty normal. WoW is different, but WoW is WoW.

    FF14 is a huge grindfest, no doubt about it. If you don't like grinding for hours and hours and hours it might not be the best game for you.

  15. #75
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    The grind isn't even that bad compared to old FF11(only cause we're not going for 75 with this system atm). Just finding a decent sized group & a place to go. The problem is still finding the people & knowing what to do. Sometimes it sux pretty bad, especially since so many english players don't even know how to use the party search & recruit.

    It took people like 6-8 months or more in FF11. Whereas FF14 has many players in the 20-30 range with more & more edging to 40-50 now. FF11's grind used to be thought of as weeding out the nubs & "casuals" and it feels like that is what FF14 is doing currently.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meresgi View Post
    Its never been fun or rewarding, that's why its called a grind.
    Subjective. I had fun levelling up in XI, I had fun in most merit parties, "grinding" in abyssea is normally a total blast. I had fun grinding my lowbie levels on Perfect World. I had fun last night grinding my GLD once I'd find a reasonable camp for a while... until the random nature of SP rewards started to annoy me.

  17. #77

    In a MMORPG, the concepts of "fun" and "accomplishing" are closely related.
    Sure you can have fun grinding on a class with many different tools at its disposal at first, but you'll eventually stick to the 3 or 4 good ones for grinding.

    Look at FFXI's RDM, an incredibly versatile job but that does virtually nothing other than Cure/Haste/Refresh/Dia/Convert in exp parties.
    Same deal here with the various classes doing nothing but spamming their "1" attack 99% of the time, add curespamming and the occasional buffs if you're a mage.
    Doing so for several hours gets really boring eventually, the only thing that keeps players going are the new skills they gain each 2 ranks.

    As long as players rank up quickly enough to keep their interest, it's all good. But when you take days to learn a new ability that might end up being useless/disappointing and realize that your character has not improved even after you put a lot of effort, you start losing interest in the game. That's one of the main reason players tend to quit; horizontal progression is cool and all, but vertical progression needs to be improved in this game.

  18. #78
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    Might be cool if the system was on a leve basis. Say, every leve rewards you with skill and exp based on how you performed rather than getting skill off single monsters. The more people in the party the bigger the multiplier gets.

    Emphasis on grouping is what the game needs however. Soloing is what I'd call "grinding" in any game. Grouping on the other hand is fun.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyan View Post
    Emphasis on grouping is what the game needs however. Soloing is what I'd call "grinding" in any game. Grouping on the other hand is fun.
    Please elaborate.

  20. #80
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    Poor game mechanics make playing alone a chore. MMO's are all about poor game mechanics. Single player games have always superior gameplay, thus they can be enjoyable alone.

    But doing shit in a group is so much more fun it's not even funny. It's like playing counter strike or DotA with bots vs friends. Except CS and DotA have enjoyable gameplay at least.

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