Changes to Battle System (8/25/2011)

[Cichy]

[dev1026] Changes to Claiming and Engaging Enemies

* This feature, planned for patch 1.19, is still in development, and therefore subject to change.

Patch 1.19 will see changes to both the claiming and engaging of enemies.

Currently, when a player claims and engages an enemy, they can earn experience points and loot, as well as credit for quest objectives, upon defeating the enemy. However, a player can only engage and hold claim over one enemy (or group of enemies) at a time as the system does not allow players to engage multiple enemy groups simultaneously.

In order to address the above issue, as well as several others, the following changes will be made.

Claiming and Engaging Enemies

Players will be able to attack any enemy*. However, only the player (or party that the player is in) that initiates the first attack on the enemy will earn the rewards.

* Only players that are participating in levequests, or in behests, can engage enemies that are specific to those battles.

The color of an enemy’s name will indicate whether or not you will be granted the rewards upon defeating it.
If the name of the enemy is red, you or your party will earn the rewards.
If the name of the enemy is purple, another player or party will earn the rewards.

An enemy’s name will appear in orange if it is unclaimed, but is attacking another player.
* Once you have engaged the enemy, you or your party will earn its reward.
Claim on an enemy will be lost under the following conditions:
If the party that initially claimed the enemy is defeated.
If a claimed enemy returns to its territory.


[dev1131] The Enemy Link System

* This feature, planned for patch 1.19, is still in development, and therefore subject to change.

Patch 1.19 will see the introduction of the enemy link system.

The enemy link system allows an enemy to call for reinforcements based on the strength of the party that initiated contact with it.

Enemies will call for reinforcements under the following conditions:
When an enemy detects a player and initiates an attack.
When a player initiates an attack on an enemy.

* Enemies can only call for reinforcements once.
* If enemies have already formed a group, they will not call for reinforcements, nor will they react to a call from other enemies.

How an enemy will call for reinforcements
The number of enemies that will be called upon will be based on the comparison of the strength of the party that initiated the attack (or was detected by the enemy) and the strength of the enemy itself.
All types of enemies in the vicinity will be called upon regardless of whether or not they are the same type of enemy that made the call.

* Certain powerful enemies will not react to the call.
* Only enemies present within a certain distance will be called.



[dev1132] Addition and Adjustments to Bonuses on Experience Points

* This feature, planned for patch 1.19, is still in development, and therefore subject to change.

Patch 1.19 will see the introduction of two new systems, along with adjustments to the amount of obtainable experience points and how they are distributed.

We plan to introduce new systems which will allow players to receive more experience points by tactically defeating enemies. We will also be implementing adjustments to overall experience point rewards and the current party bonus algorithm.

Link Bonuses

Link bonuses will be granted based on how many enemies are linked to the current target. The more enemies that are linked, the larger the amount of bonus experience points will be granted.

Peruse the details of the enemy link system.

Chain Bonuses

Chain bonuses will be granted when players consecutively defeat enemies that have levels equal to or higher than their own, within a specific amount of time*.

As the number of chains increase, the experience bonus will increase, but the amount of time* granted to maintain the chain will shorten.

* A time limit within which players are required to defeat an enemy to maintain the chain after defeating another.



meh

[Nama]

Odd they post todays update so late in the day~ Good changes albeit not exactly exciting.

[Draylo]

So anybody can attack any mob with this? Sounds dumb, what was wrong with x person claims mob with initiating attack and nobody else can touch it after.

[Lucavi]

Too similar to the game they're already making money on? I dunno. I like the way GW2 is handling it, where anyone that beats on any mob gets their own share of the goods. These games always try to build up this "band of brothers" lore mentality where everyone is supposed to work together for the greater good, yet they rarely design systems that support the theme (SE is notorious for this) and the player-base just loves to funnel off into their own small cliques and work essentially alone. The proposed changes do little to curb that mentality, but at least others can come and help kill a mob if someone is struggling now. No matter how you slice it, it made absolutely no sense to disallow a fellow character with a pig-sticker in their hands to help another character kill a monster. You're blowing any concept of immersion out the window when you do that.

At least I'll be able to help a random passerby now instead of ignoring everyone around me while heading to my next solo event.

[Waraji]

It's gonna cause a lot of butthurt amongst griefers. Some else claims a mob, you get hate, run it out of territory range, and have your party claim it when it gets back.

[Lucavi]

There isn't a perfect system out there, and yeah, greifers can abuse this, just like they could abuse everything else. There's no better time, though, to try shit like this out than when the game is still in super-beta mode.

[Draylo]

It's gonna cause a lot of butthurt amongst griefers. Some else claims a mob, you get hate, run it out of territory range, and have your party claim it when it gets back.

This would be my main concern, especially if it applies to Nms lol, I don't want someone coming up and "helping" me with my mob anyway.

[Toth]

On the plus side, exp chains at last!

[Cichy]

Would be great if they adopted something like Rift has for rift battles where bunch of people can participate and all get variety of rewards.

[Corrderio]

Kind of mixed feelings about this.

On the plus side, I don't see big world spawns happening (Thank !@#$ god), however can still be exploited beyond belief with the current NMs.

[Vuitton]

Who cares if you don't get rewards. It's not like the respawn on anything is all that long. This won't matter for the FNM Leves or Instanced Dungeons either. At most it will currently create some interesting situations for the handful of R50 open world NMs. It will most likely get tweaked because of that, but they probably don't know how to tweak it until the see some of the situations it creates.

If you're not getting rewards, and you're not wanting to help someone with claim, nothing says you have to intervene on the claimed mob. You're not getting a reward so you shouldn't feel the need to assist unless you feel like it. They might also make it so outside participants remain off the aggro table to prevent griefing.

Let's see how it all works out.

[Hiroishime]

Finally i can stop telling people to focus on one mob Q_Q

[Rocl]

They might also make it so outside participants remain off the aggro table to prevent griefing.

Even more potential exploiting there! Summoners, move asi-- oh.

[Vuitton]

I don't understand. If outside participants can't affect the aggro table, then how will they grief? Nothing they can do will risk the mob reseting and losing it's claimed status.

[Rocl]

I more or less saw it as: outside participant isn't on aggro table, therefore it would make the most sense for groups to split up. (Especially for the R50 mobs, where the spoils are tradable craftables). Party that claim tanks/holds the mob, a second party does all the damage-- and the tanks never have to worry about losing hate. (I have no idea if this an actual problem, tbh) But you're setting up for a hate-less damage source that way, which isn't the best thing for balance, I'd imagine.

So that effort to stave off griefers, creates a nice loophole/exploit for linkshells to take advantage of.

[Vuitton]

Oh, I see what you mean. I wouldn't consider that griefing though, but I agree it would be a problem for any NM that drops tradeable items.

[Fievel]

I just started playing this, interested to see how it all works.

It sounds awful, but it may be something thats pretty great.

[Kuroikage]

I wouldn't consider that griefing though.

He never said it was ^^

[Rocl]

Oh, I see what you mean. I wouldn't consider that griefing though, but I agree it would be a problem for any NM that drops tradeable items.

That's why I chose the word "exploit" and not "griefing" :P

As it stands, it will be interesting to see how this all works out.

[Hyan]

Yawn, why so early today...

They can make NM's have the same status as levequests mobs if it becomes a problem I guess.

I hope the link system doesn't end up being a gimmick.

[miokomioko]

They just need to make an adjustment that makes it so if someone outside the initiating party drags it to the edge of its territory, the claim isn't lost.

Otherwise, I think all this stuff sounds fine. However, this definitely opens a massive door for power-leveling... which they seem to have been avoiding as much as they could in the past.

[Skinwalker]

Imo they should make that you can choose If someone is able to help you or not. Just like call for help in XI but just with exp (SP) at the end ^^

[Grey Jorildyn]

what was wrong with x person claims mob with initiating attack and nobody else can touch it after.

I feel like you answered your own question.

[Gulkeeva]

First thing that came to mind about claiming system was...

Back in FFXI days on a niddhog pull, someone heals the main tank, does some ability spam for massive hate.. and runs it around killing people. But instead of healing the tank, they'd poke the mob, use every job ability possible for obscene threat and run somewhere...

[Cichy]

As long as they dont make retarded spawn conditions like Nid though we should be fine. I much rather see some Garlean attacks where everyone can participate in defense and get something.

[Grey Jorildyn]

As long as they dont make retarded spawn conditions like Nid though we should be fine. I much rather see some Garlean attacks where everyone can participate in defense and get something.

I like the idea of public quests like this where there's "something for everyone". The elitists don't much care for it though. This is one of those instances where I'd like to see the official forums light up in support of something like this, but there's just too many ideas being thrown around for anyone, including the moderators there, to make any kind of sense of.

[Cichy]

I'm willing to see how this unfolds. Almost everyone on Lodestone is XI players who think people will come and rob them of their expz and lootz so they kicking and screaming like a two year old in Wal mart.

[Grey Jorildyn]

We should go steal their expz and lootz so they quit the game and can't post on the official forums anymore.

[Alderaan]

I don't want someone coming up and "helping" me with my mob anyway.

This is part of the mentality that XI helped foster that needs to change. Like Lucavi said, GW2 is doing it right.

If you're ever in a situation that you don't want to see another player, then that's horrible game design.

[Hyan]

I like the idea of public quests like this where there's "something for everyone". The elitists don't much care for it though. This is one of those instances where I'd like to see the official forums light up in support of something like this, but there's just too many ideas being thrown around for anyone, including the moderators there, to make any kind of sense of.

I, too, like the idea of Besieged.

[Lucavi]

I'm willing to see how this unfolds. Almost everyone on Lodestone is XI players who think people will come and rob them of their expz and lootz so they kicking and screaming like a two year old in Wal mart.

This is what XI and nothing else for so many years has done to neckbeards. They're perfectly willing to read about and compliment a cliche, contrite story about teamwork and working together with fellow man to combat evil, but as soon as they make their character, they instantly rush to get into a clique and then hiss and spray venom at any other "fellow man" that is around. It's a combination of a bunch of old cranky men screaming for kids to get off their lawn and a bunch of paranoid-laden conspiracy theorists claiming that the world is against them and only them.

I'm not completely against a "you claim, its all you" system, but I'd like the lore to reflect the actual game design, or vice versa, especially when you have idiots screaming up and down about how "superior" the plot in SE MMOs are compared to other MMOs. If SE is going to design selfish combat systems, then wrap the story and plot aspect around it. As it stands right now, there's a metric ton of hypocrisy both from the developers and the players. The devs are at least trying to change that, some 10 years later, but based on the "official" forums, it seems that they're the only one.

Edit:
And yes, there is a large number of problems with the proposed system. The biggest I can think of is a form of "greifing by proxy", especially considering SE is going to boneheaded route of only allowing he who claims to receive rewards, and even moreso through the silly system where the "better" you fight a mob, the more you get. If I'm 15 levels stronger than a guy and I beat up on his mobs to "help" him, he's going to get shitty XP and rewards. GW2 blows this system out of the water by simply giving everyone their own loot pool. We don't know how deep the rewards tie into actual performance in GW2, but its already a step above by simply removing penalties for helping fellow man. Based on the boss fights they've shown so far, if fellow man isn't helping one another out, that world is right fucked anyway.

I just hope SE doesn't start trying to pull from GW2 months/years after it launches like they've done with WoW and Rift.

[Ropeydonkey]

So we can all beat on most/all mobs... really don't see how this is going to work... surely this massively restricts options for enemy AI and opens up a shit load of new and interesting ways for people to screw each other...

Any mutually exclusive/wiping debuff etc, graving mobs that need to be moved out of dangerous/linking areas etc etc etc

[Grey Jorildyn]

I, too, like the idea of Besieged.

Besieged is pretty low on the totem pole of "public quest".

[Vuitton]

This is what XI and nothing else for so many years has done to neckbeards. They're perfectly willing to read about and compliment a cliche, contrite story about teamwork and working together with fellow man to combat evil, but as soon as they make their character, they instantly rush to get into a clique and then hiss and spray venom at any other "fellow man" that is around. It's a combination of a bunch of old cranky men screaming for kids to get off their lawn and a bunch of paranoid-laden conspiracy theorists claiming that the world is against them and only them.

I'm not completely against a "you claim, its all you" system, but I'd like the lore to reflect the actual game design, or vice versa, especially when you have idiots screaming up and down about how "superior" the plot in SE MMOs are compared to other MMOs. If SE is going to design selfish combat systems, then wrap the story and plot aspect around it. As it stands right now, there's a metric ton of hypocrisy both from the developers and the players. The devs are at least trying to change that, some 10 years later, but based on the "official" forums, it seems that they're the only one.

Edit:
And yes, there is a large number of problems with the proposed system. The biggest I can think of is a form of "greifing by proxy", especially considering SE is going to boneheaded route of only allowing he who claims to receive rewards, and even moreso through the silly system where the "better" you fight a mob, the more you get. If I'm 15 levels stronger than a guy and I beat up on his mobs to "help" him, he's going to get shitty XP and rewards. GW2 blows this system out of the water by simply giving everyone their own loot pool. We don't know how deep the rewards tie into actual performance in GW2, but its already a step above by simply removing penalties for helping fellow man. Based on the boss fights they've shown so far, if fellow man isn't helping one another out, that world is right fucked anyway.

I just hope SE doesn't start trying to pull from GW2 months/years after it launches like they've done with WoW and Rift.

Where does it say that a higher rank person assisting a lower rank person with claim result in lower experience and reward? Also, exactly how is this going to impact anyone other than high ranked players who farm the few R50 open world NMs that drop crafting materials? The majority of the current players are ranking up via leves and behest. The additional content are the instanced dungeons and the FNM leves. This system won't affect any of it.

[Corrderio]

As long as they dont make retarded spawn conditions like Nid though we should be fine. I much rather see some Garlean attacks where everyone can participate in defense and get something.

Pretty sure Yoshida isn't going down the HNM path. So don't need to worry about griefing to that extent. However I do think you're right about the Garlean attacks and they're doing this to prepare for Hamlet defenses.

[Vuitton]

They're also adding "open world dungeons", whatever those are. I just hope that whatever treasure is to be found within them is either leve based or on a fast respawn timer similar to the R30 NMs. The fast respawn negates almost all motivation to grief others, because why bother? It's going to respawn in less than five minutes. Random treasure chests would also bypass griefing.

[miokomioko]

Where does it say that a higher rank person assisting a lower rank person with claim result in lower experience and reward?

Yeah, it doesn't. People are making a huge assumption. If it's true, that's dumb. If it's not true, power-leveling will become incredibly easy.

Rank-5 player pulls and links some mobs > rank-50 player one-shots them all.

[Kurokikaze]

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9600260.jpg

[Kaylia]

They're also adding "open world dungeons", whatever those are. I just hope that whatever treasure is to be found within them is either leve based or on a fast respawn timer similar to the R30 NMs. The fast respawn negates almost all motivation to grief others, because why bother? It's going to respawn in less than five minutes. Random treasure chests would also bypass griefing.
Astral candescence area come to mind.

[Lokus]

They could always make it so people with first claim get a different loot pool from anyone that decides to help. In that regards, helpers would at least get something.

Regardless, griefers gonna grief no matter what system is put in place.

[Kurokikaze]

Never seen griefing in any game that has a system like the one being implemented...

[Lokus]

The FF crowd tends to have it's extremists. But like I said, despite the implementation or not, if someone wants to grief, they'll find a way.

[Kaylia]

If griefing seriously become an issue, there is always work around they could implement. I can't imagine this being a problem since its pretty much what every other mmo do.

[Lucavi]

Failing to implement ideas due to overwhelming and irrational fear from an elitist, paranoid section of the user-base. Why does XI and XIV always mirror politics?

[Lokus]

I'm not saying not implement it. Not like they can't work something out later on down the line if shit gets exploited much like they've done in the past. This change alone opens them up for future content so I look forward to it.

[Kurokikaze]

Failing to implement ideas due to overwhelming and irrational fear from an elitist, paranoid section of the user-base. Why does XI and XIV always mirror politics?

I've been saying that forever dude. It's a progressive vs right wing extremist debate. lol

[Lordender]

Failing to implement ideas due to overwhelming and irrational fear from an elitist, paranoid section of the user-base. Why does XI and XIV always mirror politics?


More or like a bunch of old farts scared to be modern and complain about computers, smart phones, facebook, twitter then say how much better things used to be when they had cars that didn't go above 60mph, 25 cent gas, card catalogs, file cabinets along with 50 other completely inefficient other annoyances that have been completely done away with over the past 50 years.

"Just because it worked back then is how it should work now, change and innovation is dumb!"

[miokomioko]

I really like the idea that if you go to kill some NM in a group and some guy is already there, taking 45 minutes to solo it with DoTs... you can just speed things up for them.

You do have to acknowledge that griefing will happen in some form or another when new roaming NMs are added. Also, power-leveling can potentially be incredibly easy. It's going to need some eventual adjustments, but I'm all for it.

Now, only if they would completely kill that exploit for Archers and mages where they drag NMs to the edge of their territory to slowly solo.

[Draylo]

What if they wanted to do it solo though?

[Kurokikaze]

Shut the fuck up. lol

[Rocl]

What if they wanted to do it solo though?

Then fuck you.

[miokomioko]

Then wait until no one fucking cares about the NM so you know you won't be bothered by other people who don't have all day to let you prove something to yourself?

[Takiwaki]

Just pull it far away across the zone where no one can find you lol, campaign says hi.

[Spider-Dan]

Just pull it far away across the zone where no one can find you lol, campaign says hi.
Even NMs are on a tether. Mosshorn says hi.

The real answer, as already stated, is, "Don't try to solo high-demand mobs with others waiting in line."

[Lordender]

lol sounds almost like the same douche bags who twobox kill abyssea nm's and take 20mins while refusing help when theres 30 other people waiting, fucking cock knockers.

[Takiwaki]

Even NMs are on a tether. Mosshorn says hi.

The real answer, as already stated, is, "Don't try to solo high-demand mobs with others waiting in line."

Lol I know!, it was a joke :P

[Kurokikaze]

I'm glad I wasn't alone in my response. Theres hope.

[Alkar]

I've had enough of soloing in this game already lol.

[Lucavi]

:FullPanel:
What if they wanted to do it solo though?

HHHHGNNNNNGHHH~!!!!

Thankfully its already been covered.

[Fiddle Sticks]

I just don't understand why everyone is worried about people stealing your mob, or screwing with you or stealing hate and causing wipes. Do you guys really think people have nothing better to do than follow you around and mess with your mobs? Why in the hell would anyone want to screw with your mob other than just the fact of someone just passing by and decides to whack the mob a few times and help you kill faster, or If someone sees you in trouble and helps you finish off your mob. Wake up people, this is not 2005 anymore, there is not KB and Nid spawns that we all need to fight over. This should have no effect on anyone in a negative way. This is nothing more than SE getting out of the dark ages and getting one step closer to having a modern MMO.


Even NMs are on a tether. Mosshorn says hi.

The real answer, as already stated, is, "Don't try to solo high-demand mobs with others waiting in line."

High demand? Those 4 NMs are in no way shape or form "high demand" anymore. Remember, those were implemented by the old dev team. I'm willing to bet we will never see mobs like that anymore, and they will just get replaced by instanced content more and more. They are basically almost worthless as it is now.

The new Dev team is smart, so stop worrying about world NMs and people taking them from you or whatever. Those days are gone. We will not see anymore god awful world spawn NMs. I'm willing to bet my left nut on it. Instanced content for gear is here to stay.

[miokomioko]

I think it's the paranoia of people who are generally big enough assholes to draw that kind of attention on themselves.

[Cichy]

I just don't understand why everyone is worried about people stealing your mob, or screwing with you or stealing hate and causing wipes.

Have you ever play a game known as Final Fantasy 11?

[Spider-Dan]

High demand? Those 4 NMs are in no way shape or form "high demand" anymore.
...

Mosshorn was an example of an NM on a tether (specifically: an NM whose tether mechanics figured prominently into soloing strategies), not an example of a high-demand mob.


Remember, those were implemented by the old dev team. I'm willing to bet we will never see mobs like that anymore, and they will just get replaced by instanced content more and more.
You'll forgive me if I don't accept "You'll never have to compete with anyone else for a spawn again, for the rest of this game's life!" as a convincing explanation as to why griefing should not be a concern.

[Kurokikaze]

Have you ever play a game known as Final Fantasy 11?

Have you ever played an MMO besides Final Fantasy XI?

As I said before, this system is in virtually every other MMO and it is a non-issue.

Also if you're expecting 24-72 world pop for the best gear in the game... You can go back to playing FFXI because it's not going to happen with this new Dev Team. Thank God.

[Fiddle Sticks]

...

Mosshorn was an example of an NM on a tether (specifically: an NM whose tether mechanics figured prominently into soloing strategies), not an example of a high-demand mob.
Just going off of what you said... "Don't try to solo high-demand mobs with others waiting in line."



You'll forgive me if I don't accept "You'll never have to compete with anyone else for a spawn again, for the rest of this game's life!" as a convincing explanation as to why griefing should not be a concern.

Hmm maybe I don't know what this "Griefing" is, but if World Spawn competition is not your problem, then I really don't understand your concern at all..... I mean, are you really just worried that people will come and screw with your mobs while you're exping or something???........... Please, don't kid yourself buddy, I'm sure people have more important things to do than follow you around and screw with your mobs while you're exping.... This paranoid crap from you players that know nothing more than FFXI is what will hold this game back.


Have you ever play a game known as Final Fantasy 11?

Yeah, I have, and outside of World Spawn NMs, I still don't see the problem. (and It should be known by now, that will not be an issue here) If you are telling me that you had people on your server stalking you and screwing with your exp mobs or something then I don't even know what to say to that.... I didn't realize people were that bored in life and had nothing better to do and were that childish.

[Vuitton]

Exp mobs outside leves dont really live all that long when engaged. Not sure how you can grief when a mob is alive all of 30 seconds or less.

[Spider-Dan]

Yeah, I have, and outside of World Spawn NMs, I still don't see the problem.
So if I understand you correctly, as long as you don't count the uninstanced mobs with special loot pools, mob monopolization should not be an issue. That's obvious to the point of being meaningless.

I find it interesting that you seem to have gotten the idea that the new team is completely against the idea of world spawn NMs, given that they introduced ~4x as many as the original team did.* You seem to be proposing that either a) Yoshida released his own set of 20 world-spawn NMs, but will never do anything like that again, or b) future world-spawn NMs will never have loot that anyone would want to compete over.

*technically, even the first set of NMs was released after the handover to Yoshida, but I'll grant those as Tanaka's vision

[Lucavi]

So if I understand you correctly, as long as you don't count the uninstanced mobs with special loot pools, mob monopolization should not be an issue. That's obvious to the point of being meaningless.

I find it interesting that you seem to have gotten the idea that the new team is completely against the idea of world spawn NMs, given that they introduced ~4x as many as the original team did.* You seem to be proposing that either a) Yoshida released his own set of 20 world-spawn NMs, but will never do anything like that again, or b) future world-spawn NMs will never have loot that anyone would want to compete over.

*technically, even the first set of NMs was released after the handover to Yoshida, but I'll grant those as Tanaka's vision

Has the new guy even said anything about not wanting -any- world spawn HNMs? I don't believe so. I think people are pulling a bit of red herring here.

[Vuitton]

Has the new guy even said anything about not wanting -any- world spawn HNMs? I don't believe so. I think people are pulling a bit of red herring here.

And you're all bitching about a handful of R50 NMs that drop crafting mats and unknown future content. "New guy", as you refer to him, is more than likely aware of these miniscule arguments about leash griefing. Yoshida isn't exactly the type of developer that throws in new systems with disregard with how it will synergize with the rest of the game. In fact, if a new system is going to have an unintended consequence he has already demonstrated to us that he is aware of the problem and that it will temporary until future planned adjustments are implemented. He has done so in several of his last posts concerning the battle system changes and the battle regimens.


OH NOES. Someone is trying to leash my R30 NM. Whatever will I do? It only respawns continuously within five minutes of death! (Not taking into account that nobody camps these mobs, that anyone would even bother, that anyone would risk their reputation if they have one, or that anyone has ever tried to grief in XIV at all.) Same goes for those handful of R50 NMs actually. Who is bothering? Nobody.



THE SKY IS FALLING.

http://www.freewebs.com/thedisneyclassics/chicken.bmp

[Corrderio]

I could have sworn Yoshida said he was going to lean towards instances in a translation somewhere.

[Cichy]

Have you ever played an MMO besides Final Fantasy XI?

As I said before, this system is in virtually every other MMO and it is a non-issue.

Also if you're expecting 24-72 world pop for the best gear in the game... You can go back to playing FFXI because it's not going to happen with this new Dev Team. Thank God.

I was just answering his question, people on the Lodestone bitch because they think it will lead to FFXI type HNM endgame.
Yoshi stated multiple times that best gear will be instanced in this one.

[Spider-Dan]

Has the new guy even said anything about not wanting -any- world spawn HNMs? I don't believe so.
I don't remember typing an H.

Are we currently operating under the assumption that XIV cannot/will not have an analogue to LL/VE/Mee Deggi/Sozu/etc.? Is it really reasonable to presume that there will never be any high-demand world-spawn NM at any point in the future?

[Vuitton]

I don't remember typing an H.

Are we currently operating under the assumption that XIV cannot/will not have an analogue to LL/VE/Mee Deggi/Sozu/etc.? Is it really reasonable to presume that there will never be any high-demand world-spawn NM at any point in the future?

LL/VE/Mee Deggi are all NMs that provide gear for low to mid levels in XI. XIV currently has (quite a lot of) NMs that provide gear for the mid levels. I don't think anyone knows which dev team was responsible for their planning and implementation, quite possibly Tanaka's team planned and developed them and Yoshida implemented them, or that Yoshida did it all.

If Yoshida's team is responsible only for implementation of NMs, then it might be reasonable to assume that he is not planning on developing high-demand world-spawn NMs. It might even be likely that the mid level NMs he did implement have extremely fast respawn times in order to prevent them from becoming high-demand. (Success!) Would Tanaka have let them respawn so fast, or would he follow his own system in XI with long respawn windows, place holders, and complex pop conditions? Not sure.

If Yoshida's team is responsible for both the development and implementation, then it's possible they will continue to release NMs (I believe he has already stated they will). He has also declared the development of open world dungeons (not instanced), which sound like an obvious place to house these future NMs. Will they be high-demand world-spawn NMs (I consider a non-instanced dungeon NM a world-spawn NM)? Most likely not given the current respawn mechanics of the game's current NMs. Even the R50 open world NMs don't have huge respawn times. Great Buffalo spawns within the same time-frame every in-game day? So that is once an hour. Dodore spawns during dark weather? A very common weather for that region. Then, if it is true that Yoshida said the best gear will come from instanced content, that will further remove "high demand" from open world NMs.

Then, considering the grand companies and their potential rewards, future faction leves (assuming Yoshida implements more FNMs), future R50+ crafted gear, and future instanced dungeons. I think open world NMs are sort of like little side content but not the maindish. If you're wanting complex boss fights that drop bad ass gear, well let's hope the future instanced dungeons become more complex.

I don't see mob/NM griefing ever becoming an issue like it was in XI and these are the reasons I roll my eyes when I read all of these chicken little sky is falling messages here, on the lodestone, and elsewhere. "XIV endgame" is not following the same trajectory that XI's took. They're looking to be completely different.

[Hyan]

Would Tanaka have let them respawn so fast, or would he follow his own system in XI with long respawn windows, place holders, and complex pop conditions? Not sure.

I think they're changing XI NM respawns sometime in the future.

XI was largely instanced post-2006, XIV will be largely instanced. It's not a completely different route, unless you compare it to history long gone.

[Lucavi]

I don't remember typing an H.

Are we currently operating under the assumption that XIV cannot/will not have an analogue to LL/VE/Mee Deggi/Sozu/etc.? Is it really reasonable to presume that there will never be any high-demand world-spawn NM at any point in the future?

I'm certainly not. Of course you want rare mobs out in the field - I loved spending free time in WOTLK trying to find the rare mobs up at the storm peaks and taming them if I was able to. The only thing I'm against is the items that they drop being the best-in-slot for some 30 levels or so, which the player-base will ultimately decree as mandatory to "not being a scrub". Even if you can get them, the sheer amount of time and luck involved should automatically disqualify it from being "mandatory", whether socially-enforced or otherwise.

I think you're aiming your crosshairs at the wrong target, here. The world would be boring if there wasn't anything strong to fight outside of instances. I'd just keep the biggest, baddest items locked away in said instances so that everyone has a fair shot at them, if the creators are going to make such crazy items in the first place. I mean, compare O.Kote to anything around its level. It was absolutely absurd, especially in a game that had such few meaningful stat-increasing equipment in the early levels.

[Spider-Dan]

When Yoshida says that the best gear will be instanced, will that include future gear similar to Eternal Shade? I doubt it.

In any practical sense, Leaping Boots were never the best gear in the game... but they were extremely useful and, therefore, extremely high-demand. If the game's population never grows beyond what it is, then sure, this probably won't be an issue. But if this game had 2004 FFXI's population, Queen Bolete would be a camped mob.

[Lucavi]

Notice I said nothing about leaping boots. Leaping boots do not compare to okote in terms of stat boost. They have have been an extremely in-demand item, but you couldn't rock leaping boots for 80% of the leveling process (which took up a big chunk of the game back in those days, not like today's rush-to-max MMOs) like you could with o.kote. I specifically singled the kote out because of the importance of that item, but I could have also picked out the pcharm. When those kinds of items are dropping off of world NMs and items that at the very least rival them cannot be found anywhere else (far be it from being found in an instance), you have a problem when a shitty claiming system is present.

XIV shouldn't have to worry about this, but it bears repeating. SE should not and cannot make that mistake again.

[Spider-Dan]

Notice I said nothing about leaping boots. Leaping boots do not compare to okote in terms of stat boost. They have have been an extremely in-demand item,[...]
...which is the only criteria: high-demand items.

It doesn't matter if O.Kote is technically better than LL boots/VE pin, or O-bow is technically better than all of the above; at the end of the day, demand is demand. Unless SE pursues a policy of not putting anything that too many people would want on open-world NMs, sooner or later there will be real competition for a spawn.

[Lucavi]

The question is: will they? That's my point: they cannot do it again. They have not thus far, and I hope it continues to remain that way.

[Meko]

I have a question: With Guild Wars 2 coming, who cares? :P I kid I kid. (or do I)

[Grey Jorildyn]

Level 10 items will never be best is slot because gear and stats are scaled. For example: any choker lower than mythril choker's level can never have more than 4 attack. Instead of OP low level gear now we've got all this predictable gear.

Set bonus can I have it? Armor sets can we have it???

[Lucavi]

Set bonuses are always fun, and they help to avoid "clown syndrome".

[CasualPlayer]

@Lucavi: What good does it do for Yoshi to liter the world with NMs that don't drop anything that's worth a fuck? If the best gear comes from instances that's all people will do. The community as you said is going to dictate which gear you need to not be considered scrub and if its all from instances open world mobs will be ignored.

I've always supported the idea that the best gear should come from instances and open world content. Pcharm dropping from that bcnm 40 etc.

Edit: Even better they made the R/Ex version of shit drop from the open world content and left the instanced version sellable to give all you instance only pussies one less thing to cry about.

[Meko]

There is no reason why both instanced and real-time world spawns can't drop the same gear or the same 'item level' of gear. World spawns add a little mystery and flavor to running around not to mention, nothing is more epic than a giant dragon roaming a country side randomly causing chaos. The dynamic mobs that spawn add some LIFE to a game which FF14 has next to none as it currently sits. If they aren't going to add 'rifts' or 'public quests' and such, they need to add something to make the game world feel alive. Other than that, the game world seems almost irrelevant.

[Fiddle Sticks]

@Lucavi: Even better they made the R/Ex version of shit drop from the open world content and left the instanced version sellable to give all you instance only pussies one less thing to cry about.

I love how people that don't like to waste days and days of their life standing there with their thumb up their ass camping NMS, pussies.... You're so awesome and leet because you have patience and like to bore yourself to death camping NMs for days and days! That makes you such a skilled and awesome player!

[Takiwaki]

With the changes to the claim system, all open world nm's shouldn't drop shit but maybe points toward companies for good gear, or a chest that everyone that fought the nm can get something from, also make it so that the NMs spawn under certain conditions, that players need to make happen, cus the entire camping mechanic that has developed is stupid. I am not dumb enough to be paying $15 a month to stand around for 3hrs and read a book (anymore lol)

[Anthonystar]

Make a wanted poster system or something for the Companies for open world NMs that spawn every 5 or 10 min. Get points towards the company. Change the NM everyday as a daily. With the new claiming system could give kill credit to anyone who gained enimity.

[Niiro]

you couldn't rock leaping boots for 80% of the leveling process
For any job that wasn't MNK/SAM/NIN you were actually. There's no good footwear til at least the late 60s for most of those jobs (even later if were talking the good 'ol days).

Kind of one of the things I like about XIV's gear system, increases may not be dramatic but gear progression happens on a gentle curve not ......10........20..........30..........40........ ..50.........haub

[Lucavi]

@Lucavi: What good does it do for Yoshi to liter the world with NMs that don't drop anything that's worth a fuck? If the best gear comes from instances that's all people will do. The community as you said is going to dictate which gear you need to not be considered scrub and if its all from instances open world mobs will be ignored.

I've always supported the idea that the best gear should come from instances and open world content. Pcharm dropping from that bcnm 40 etc.

Edit: Even better they made the R/Ex version of shit drop from the open world content and left the instanced version sellable to give all you instance only pussies one less thing to cry about.

Damn, you're so hardcore. I'm speechless by both your infallible logic and by your impressive testicular fortitude. I have nothing of value to add.

[Grey Jorildyn]

imo everything should be rare/ex (bind on pickup) or bind on equip. Smaller markets do better.

I'd be OK with SE doing some open world shit if they knew how to implement it properly. 21-24s were just stupid and the way it is now is too giving. Gotta be some balance in there. Even darkhold is too giving. People capped out on drops like two weeks in. I don't think Salvage drop rates are the way to go, but perhaps a token system like einherjar would work out better. Put your time in, pick what you want. Too bad none of that is open world though.

[Lordender]

lol, love it, its not like they can't immerse the player in a storyline in x/y area with a few quests/cutscenes and then follow it up with a "threat is in x/y instance adding a credibility threat to the area". Instances can be hard, they can offer a challenge without having world bosses that are going to be cockblocks, people only want world bosses that drop good loot because they're greedy little griefing fagatards and spent years doing the shit on XI.

If Yoshi-P even wants to go farther they could add mini campaigns to little settlement areas and make the villian talk a little shit then disappear.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Pretty much man. That's been my experience with people who are pro-open world. It's also hard to ignore that FFXI is the only mmo they ever played seriously or for any real length of time. They make terrible arguments for why open world should exist but really they just want it to be as bad as it ever was.

[Hyan]

I'd be OK with SE doing some open world shit if they knew how to implement it properly. 21-24s were just stupid and the way it is now is too giving. Gotta be some balance in there. Even darkhold is too giving. People capped out on drops like two weeks in. I don't think Salvage drop rates are the way to go, but perhaps a token system like einherjar would work out better. Put your time in, pick what you want. Too bad none of that is open world though.

It's casual to the dot. Aside from trying to cater to harrrrdcore, why not have it this way?

It's not the rare/ex stuff that will make us grind our eyes out anyway. Having 5 materias on a HQ shiny gold armor will.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I don't feel like grinding to extend the life of content is a good plan for xiv right now. Accessorizing as grindy isn't really my cup of tea either, but I'll play until I get fed up either way. A big reason people might accept grindy contet right now is so there's something to do. Battered housewives aside, of course.

[Elrina]

Pretty much man. That's been my experience with people who are pro-open world. It's also hard to ignore that FFXI is the only mmo they ever played seriously or for any real length of time. They make terrible arguments for why open world should exist but really they just want it to be as bad as it ever was.


Why play MMOs at all then? Why not go completely hub-based? Where do you draw the line, and why is it that people who want open world content are automatically either greedy fags, or have no experience with "better MMOs than FFXI" and are stuck wanting bad content?

Don't get me wrong, I don't really post in the XIV section much anymore because my active interest has waned and hasn't really returned thus far (although I'm hoping it will somewhere between chocobos and a job system). If that doesn't qualify me to post an opinion on the matter, feel free to ignore the rest of this, but it's late and I'm bored and never liked blanket statements that make out like instances or open world either are the "only proper way" to go about content.

What's the point in an MMORPG that isn't an open persistent world? What's the point in an open persistent world in which nothing happens? I realize there are problems, and difficulties, with open world content. I realize that it's hard to balance fairly, hard to reward fairly, while still keeping an element of chance and consistent progression at the same time for an entire server at once. But, at least to me, I believe not having it is doing a disservice to said game world, and don't think instancing everything is the answer. Instances have obvious good points, such as allowing for easier balancing and everyone to experience certain content equally and fairly. But it also removes the happening from the active game world inside of an instance.

You are still on "Eorzea", or "Azeroth", or whatever game world your instance belongs to, but it is no longer part of the persistent game world. It's happening outside of that, in it's own little space/time bubble set apart, and reminds you every time that you're inside of a video game. I grant you that if it isn't done properly that it has the potential to do more harm to the game (which, in the end, is what it is) than good. But personally, I don't believe I have to be a greedy fag, or "stuck in an FFXI mindset" (I hated the concept of camping on HNMs and ridiculously high desire NMs like Argus), to desire noteworthy content happening in the persistent game world itself, not in an instance that is set apart. Instances are good, and have their place, but without anything noteworthy going on in the world itself, to me at least, it makes that game world feel stale.

I remember this discussion having been had before (probably like a year ago, and I'm sure the discussion has been had since between other people), and seem to recall you conceding that the concept of open world content isn't inherently bad, just difficult and unlikely to be utilized well in XIV (and that's possible, although not definitive, I have no idea what Yoshida will ultimately be capable of in the long term). But you're making a blanket statement here, or as good as, that open world content is pretty much just a completely bad idea in an MMO. I don't really mean to start a discussion or anything, and if you want to reply you can do it here or just PM it if you want, I don't really care, I guess. Or not bother, I mainly just wanted to cut in and say that I disagreed, if you don't want to reply that's fine too.

[Kurokikaze]

Fuck open world 24-72 hour spawns.

[Elcura]

Open World Stuff

I'm with you for the most part. Not saying that open world NMs are the way to go, but what's the point of an open world where nothing happens? As it stands, all it does it delay the time it takes to get from point A to B in order to do C. I play MMOs with hubs and I know there's a lot of the world I'm missing, but on the flip side I can do things faster. For now, that's better than a world that has nothing going on in it.

[Hyan]

Anything outside hubs feels forced to me nowadays.

"We need to build this open world, because we're making an MMO!"

"We need to make players get 50-80 levels before endgame (but treat the whole thing as a mindless 2 week tutorial at best) because we're making an MMO!"

"We'll focus our efforts on instanced content in endgame because we can introduce better gameplay that way! But the open world tutorial still limits what we can possibly do."

If it's all about the gameplay and efficiency, why make us go through all the shit if you'll end up ignoring it anyway?

Of course some people are going to ridicule me if I said that the devs focus too much on the gameplay nowadays, but to be fucking honest with you the gameplay is not the only nor primary reason I play MMO's in the first place, and the time it takes to get to the good stuff makes sure that I'll find my decent gameplay experiences (with better visuals) elsewhere in the future. From games that don't bother with open world, for example. I guess they are classified as MMO's, but not in my book.

[Thiefami]

i'm sure it will not be so onesided. He said the majority of gear, not ALL. I have enough tampons to go around. Let us all calm down.

[Jamison]

Open world stuff could (should) easily be group/server events that aren't restricted to simply a race to claim and kill.

[Hyan]

Open world stuff could (should) easily be group/server events that aren't restricted to simply a race to claim and kill.

Hopefully that doesn't mean only FFA zergfests where everyone is "cooperating" "in a group" but not really.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Why play MMOs at all then? Why not go completely hub-based? Where do you draw the line, and why is it that people who want open world content are automatically either greedy fags, or have no experience with "better MMOs than FFXI" and are stuck wanting bad content?

Don't get me wrong, I don't really post in the XIV section much anymore because my active interest has waned and hasn't really returned thus far (although I'm hoping it will somewhere between chocobos and a job system). If that doesn't qualify me to post an opinion on the matter, feel free to ignore the rest of this, but it's late and I'm bored and never liked blanket statements that make out like instances or open world either are the "only proper way" to go about content.

What's the point in an MMORPG that isn't an open persistent world? What's the point in an open persistent world in which nothing happens? I realize there are problems, and difficulties, with open world content. I realize that it's hard to balance fairly, hard to reward fairly, while still keeping an element of chance and consistent progression at the same time for an entire server at once. But, at least to me, I believe not having it is doing a disservice to said game world, and don't think instancing everything is the answer. Instances have obvious good points, such as allowing for easier balancing and everyone to experience certain content equally and fairly. But it also removes the happening from the active game world inside of an instance.

You are still on "Eorzea", or "Azeroth", or whatever game world your instance belongs to, but it is no longer part of the persistent game world. It's happening outside of that, in it's own little space/time bubble set apart, and reminds you every time that you're inside of a video game. I grant you that if it isn't done properly that it has the potential to do more harm to the game (which, in the end, is what it is) than good. But personally, I don't believe I have to be a greedy fag, or "stuck in an FFXI mindset" (I hated the concept of camping on HNMs and ridiculously high desire NMs like Argus), to desire noteworthy content happening in the persistent game world itself, not in an instance that is set apart. Instances are good, and have their place, but without anything noteworthy going on in the world itself, to me at least, it makes that game world feel stale.

I remember this discussion having been had before (probably like a year ago, and I'm sure the discussion has been had since between other people), and seem to recall you conceding that the concept of open world content isn't inherently bad, just difficult and unlikely to be utilized well in XIV (and that's possible, although not definitive, I have no idea what Yoshida will ultimately be capable of in the long term). But you're making a blanket statement here, or as good as, that open world content is pretty much just a completely bad idea in an MMO. I don't really mean to start a discussion or anything, and if you want to reply you can do it here or just PM it if you want, I don't really care, I guess. Or not bother, I mainly just wanted to cut in and say that I disagreed, if you don't want to reply that's fine too.

I will respond since you took the time to write a well thought-out rebuttal.

Firstly, I am not against open world. In the past I have stated that there can be a balance between instanced dungeons and open world content. What I have been against insofar as the latter is concerned is SE's horrible design and implementation of it.

I do not believe open world content should offer BiS items. There should not be ridiculously long or short respawn times. These items should be a sidegrade. Furthermore there should be a reason why these NMs mobs are there. Does anyone to this day know why Fafnir is in Dragon's Aery? Additionally those who clamor for open world content are indeed ex-/current FFXI players who would welcome many of those aspects in this game. Often they say it will encourage competition. Sure it does, but it encourages a lot of other things too, many of which have negative aspects on the community.

As for non-NM open world content, SE seems to have little grasp of that in XIV again. Behest, let's face it, is fucking terrible. Leves are pretty bad too, both before and after 1.18. The Garlean behest crap is poorly implemented as well. The current NMs are trash, offering little challenge unless you're underlevel for the encounter. The holiday events have been piss-poor unimaginative copypasta garbage as well.

Like I said, I've no issue with open world content but it must be dynamic and engaging. SE has not shown they are up to the task yet. If the squeky wheels promoting XI-esque open world content get their way, you can bet I won't be participating in it with any enthusiasm if I participate at all.

[Hyan]

For how much they care to spend resources on it, I like what Yoshida has done in regards to seasonal events. Changing the color of the moon, adjusting weather, posting bits of lore and artwork on the lodestone and making GM's roleplay are small little things that cost nothing to add but are pretty neat regardless.

[Patriarch]

@ Elrina,

Wonderful comment. I couldn't agree more.

So many people fight against the deep-end, open world content. Yet, it needs to exist. I loved HNM's, and I know that I am not the only one. Is it time consuming, and repetitive? Yes. But the feeling of accomplishment that comes when you finally get that ridill, or that A.body makes it worth it. Plus, as bad as it may sound to some, but for anyone who played XI in the early days and found yourself in the one dominant linkshell that took everything, it was awesome. People play games to do what? Win. Competition needs to be a part of an MMO.

Yet at the same time, for the people who dislike the amount of time you need to put into Open World Content, instances are needed. Because like so many have said, it justly and adequetly rewards people for work put into whatever event you may be doing. Instances in my opinion, cater to the more casual player.

If everything switches to Instanced Content; linkshell competition, and many other exciting aspects of an MMORPG are taken away from the player.

But my biggest qualm with everything being said is the closed-mindedness of our playerbase. If people spent more time being open to someone else's opinion, rather than argue about what he/she thinks the game should be like. I am for open world content, but if you want instanced content I am more than happy to listen to your non-aggressive opinion, and hopefully you will listen to mine. And if an argument needs to ensue, let it be a constructive, friendly argument. I am so tired of seeing the trolls feeding the trolls on here.

[Grey Jorildyn]

If everything switches to Instanced Content; linkshell competition, and many other exciting aspects of an MMORPG are taken away from the player.

Because guilds can't compete with one another unless there's open world content, am I hearing that right? I wonder how other games, that don't have ridiculous open world spawns, manage to encourage competition between guilds then...

edit/shot-in-the-dark: did you only play XI?

I've very open-minded to the thought of open world but not 21-24/48-72h HNM spawns. You may have felt a sense of accomplishment or excitement when your Ridill dropped "back in the day", but that system didn't promote anything but botting, cheating, cross-linkshell hatred, gear jealousy, and mob-stealing. Those are the negative aspects I was referring to and this game simply does not need it.

[Lucavi]

Guilds and linkshells are different, bro. Linkshells are a different breed of player; I mean, you hear about world-firsts all the time for linkshells, right? Sponsorships for linkshells and world HNM content, right?

Jokes aside, there's plenty of feeling of "domination" and "winning" for the guys out there in guilds that are making thousands of bucks a year to be the best and to do everything first in instanced content. You don't need world HNMs for that. You do, however, need world HNMs in order to cock-block an entire server full of people from experiencing those same "thrills" as you; not only in being the first one to win a big fight or clear hard content, but the first to clear it for perhaps the first month, or or the first to clear it 50 times while everyone else on the server gets to try it once (if they're lucky and stayed up all night to camp), or the first to claim it with a single player or small group and hold it while you call the rest of your linkshell to wake up and kill it, or the first to block the bodies of some other linkshell that's currently fighting it, hoping to lag them out or distract them so you can claim it once they wipe.

We can go on and on. The reason "casuals" don't like the current-gen world HNM system is because its so goddamn easy to exploit. Change it up a bit; refine the system a bit and perhaps people won't be so cold towards it.

As annoying as it is to have to have this tired argument again, its heartening to know that the only new-gen game we have to even discuss it is also the current worst new-gen MMORPG on the market. I'm not sure suddenly introducing Fafhogg with a reskinned McGriddle into the game would suddenly turn it from trash to treasure, but sure, we can try it. Lets try anything once, right?

[shepardG]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmsyrupnuggetsmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Patriarch]

Because guilds can't compete with one another unless there's open world content, am I hearing that right? I wonder how other games, that don't have ridiculous open world spawns, manage to encourage competition between guilds then...

edit/shot-in-the-dark: did you only play XI?

I've very open-minded to the thought of open world but not 21-24/48-72h HNM spawns. You may have felt a sense of accomplishment or excitement when your Ridill dropped "back in the day", but that system didn't promote anything but botting, cheating, cross-linkshell hatred, gear jealousy, and mob-stealing. Those are the negative aspects I was referring to and this game simply does not need it.

Beginning with UO, EQ, and some lessers, I have played much more than "only XI"

And my point isn't "HNM is the only way to compete", but it was the most competitive guild vs guild (ls vs ls, etc) game I have played thus far. No, it wasn't the best, but how many people did? Across how many serves, did you have serious HNMLS's? Was it not an aspect of FFXI that held a good amount of the playerbase? You can make as many deragatory comments as you like, and I am sorry that you don't like it, but quite a few of us did.

Although Sir, I am not trying to negate your above post. In a sense, I agree. The 21-24/48/72 time frame, I would not miss. The ridiculous Sandworm/DI windows, I would not miss. The only point I am trying to get across is the Inter-Linkshell competition was engaging, and entertaining. At work so I can't really take the time to word it out, but although I like the XI system, it could be reworked and implented differently, yet still be just as engaging, and hopefully support more friendly competition. i.e. not trying to flail some other ls's faf, etc

And Lucavi, Touche. As in any game, being on the top of the leaderboard is always nice

[Lucavi]

Its alright, sir. I live (online) for the touche's.

The only point I'd really throw my weight behind is simply that if they're going to bring a clone of XI's system back for nostalgia's sake, then so be it, but enjoy the failure of a game. If they work on the system, truly understand where the flaws were and improve on it, then sure, try it out.

We haven't seen evidence of SE ever working that hard, though, to find out exactly where the weak points were in one of their systems or designs. To be frank, I believe that if that system could have been perfected, it would have been done already by another company. Its been nearly 10 years and nobody else has really touched the world HNM-with-single-claiming system. Nobody has dumped all of their most valuable drops onto a big dragon that pops once a week/month and can only be claimed by one person in one group. In nearly 10 years.

At some point, you have to ask yourself "why?", and I think you know the answer.

[Hyan]

Even in XI, the 24-72h HNM's were largely a thing of the past even years ago. They were simply added for the sake of consistency if anything, and were used as experiments at best in the end.

I don't understand what Grey means by "ridiculously short respawn times" tho. So short that you can't gtfo before a new version pops for someone to kill? Yeah, that'd be ridiculous. Otherwise, I have no idea.

I think "legendary" monsters like in pokemon (whatever they were called) would be cool to see added with similar mechanics. It'd be very rare to see them in the wild and they could pop just about anywhere but the rewards would be, say, some small but not irrelevant amount of gil and maybe mats that aren't exactly ultra rare but not so common either. Would people camp or compete against something like them? Maybe, but I don't see it as worth the effort. Only if you happen to come across one.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Across how many serves, did you have serious HNMLS's? Was it not an aspect of FFXI that held a good amount of the playerbase? You can make as many deragatory comments as you like, and I am sorry that you don't like it, but quite a few of us did.

The majority of end gamers got into doing the 21-24h for GEAR not for FUN. I was in such a linkshell and it was only "entertaining" when negative things were happening in Dragon's Aery, which does not encourage anything. It's like MMO-smut and it brings out the worst in people, not the best. When you put best in slot gear on open world stuff and then design it as they did, you get competitive vomit, not something that "brings the server together" in the best of sense. Doing that here will bring, as Lucavi says and I agree, the failure of a game (that hardly anyone still cares about anyway).

Open world has less potential as an "event" than instanced content. So it's no wonder no one's tried to improve upon it in 10 years. Other games companies appear to understand that there are no HNM battles that can take place in open world that will enhance the game, so they've taken the high road. You can only improve upon monster design so much before it all becomes too easy. But put mobs inside an instance and now you can introduce environmental hazards and all sorts of much more fun stuff than Fafnir's Hurricane Wing or KB's Meteor.

@Hyan: ridiculously short respawn timers like we have now where you instantly kill something and it can respawn immediately.

[Hyan]

So you can't gtfo before it repops? Not that it matters if you can lose hate.....

[Kurokikaze]

lol @ HNMs bringing the server's community together. What a crock of shit.

You definitely were not on Midgardsormr.

[Takiwaki]

Beginning with UO, EQ, and some lessers, I have played much more than "only XI"

And my point isn't "HNM is the only way to compete", but it was the most competitive guild vs guild (ls vs ls, etc) game I have played thus far.

Sorry but you should have stopped after this. If this is the extent of your experience, you really need to do much more research, or just play more games. The sad thing is that HNM camping was not even designed for competition.

[tol]

nyzul/salvage(without the terribad drop rates)/ein type content I think is the way to go :<

XI HNM drama didnt even hold a candle to Everquest world boss drama at the end of the day :p

[Hyan]

Oh how I wish it was the way to go.

[Patriarch]

Sorry but you should have stopped after this. If this is the extent of your experience, you really need to do much more research, or just play more games. The sad thing is that HNM camping was not even designed for competition.

In retrospect I should have been more specific I guess. Uo, Eq, Xi, wow, DAoC, aoin, Xiv, and a few minors

And kuro, not sure if that comment was pointed in my direction, but i was not trying to say HNM's brought servers together >_> the gritty competition did nothing but stir up some laughable drama between our E-heros on even more laughable LS forums and in-game


And Grey, once again I agree. Although I think Open World Content could be implented much better and could be a great option for players outside of instanced content, SE has not been able to find a viable means of accomplishing that.

[Kuroikage]

HNM drama was the best. PvP doesn't even compare to it.
If I were to get some competition in my game, I hate to admit it but camping shitty spawns that I'll be complaining about years after I've stopped playing the game are preferable to me when compared to shitty MMO PvP.

Granted, I don't really want either but... just saying which pile of shit smells the best in my opinion.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Aion's open world PvE was pretty good. Solid, but not top-tier gear. Fair respawn timers, decent travel involved, and fun battles you could zerg or lowman. No claim race or horribly bad competition.

Why? Because it was done closer to right than SE can pull off.

[Draylo]

I agree with what someone said earlier, if you dread seeing people then its probably not a good design for a MMO. I hate going into Abyssea, in ffxi, and seeing 50 million JP dancer's soloing crap or if a NM i wanna do is claimed. I'd rather things be more towards instanced than open spawn. If they do add some NMs, I would hope the gear isn't top tier compared to what you get from instance.

[Spider-Dan]

Sorry but you should have stopped after this. If this is the extent of your experience, you really need to do much more research, or just play more games. The sad thing is that HNM camping was not even designed for competition.
ffffffff,

The only correct answer to "Did you play anything besides XI?" is "I played WoW on x server."

Just in case you were confused as what the real point of that question is.

[Elrina]

Grey's response to me.

I pretty much agree with everything you said, except for a few parts I can't really comment on (the current state of XIV NMs, the holiday events, etc., I haven't really touched the game since like last December).

As to how it seems the discussion turned, I definitely don't promote NMs or HNMs ala FFXI as far as open world content, by any means. They don't even really seem much like "content" to me, honestly. They're single monsters, with, like Grey said, not even any story behind them. They're nice to have, for little bits of nice gear that are better than average, but they surely shouldn't have the best gear you can get at any given level range for any given slot. That gear should be restricted to actual content, instanced or not.

When I speak of open world content, I mean that I want actual content. I want story and lore, I want a progressive system (tiered or point/currency based, either/both), I want several HNM/boss type mobs attached to it. I mean public dungeons, I mean tiered mob systems like in sky/sea/ZNMs but rife with story and lore attached, I mean stuff like campaign that gives some kind of incentive and reward to take part regardless of whether you're a lowbie or max level character. It only takes a little imagination to imagine other possibilities (although I don't know how well they would all work). The point is that there are ways it can be done that offer good rewards that aren't best in slot, but depending on the content could be comparable with anything/everything short of it (and if it's actual content then some possibly can be, at least situationally) without requiring the ridiculous crap that was involved with HNM timers and camping. Modern techniques can help, stuff like phasing, along with not actually leaving best in slot gear the best available for several years running without introducing better gear in newer content.

I agree with the majority saying the type of competition HNMs delivered was a negative sort that isn't necessary in the future. There are plenty of other forms of competition between guilds/linkshells that can be introduced, more constructive forms that don't require drama to feed off of. Not to mention that if it's actually done well, the competition can actually be measured and detailed, so that you can actually compete properly.

This kind of cuts to the quick, to me (although he does say he doesn't want either):


HNM drama was the best. PvP doesn't even compare to it.
If I were to get some competition in my game, I hate to admit it but camping shitty spawns that I'll be complaining about years after I've stopped playing the game are preferable to me when compared to shitty MMO PvP.

Granted, I don't really want either but... just saying which pile of shit smells the best in my opinion.

What people need to realize is that drama =/= competition, and competition should not equate to or require drama. It may bother the people who enjoy and thrive off the drama, and/or the ability to exclude others from content, but no game will ever please everyone, and this is not the demographic any MMO developer should be aiming to please (in my opinion, anyway).