Critical on WS Questions

[Ashokan]

Two simple questions. I've done some searching and found mostly indirect answers, I apologize if I've missed posts. I'm just looking for definitive answers, to be sure I'm correct.



On multiple hit critical hit weapon skills, is the critical all-or-nothing or are the criticals counted on a per hit basis.
I seem to recall there was dispute and testing on whether crit% on certain items effect critical on weapon skills. What gear's crit% gear doesn't apply to weapon skills and what does?

[Argettio]

1. Hit by hit basis afaik
2. pass

[fliprock]

i also have a question in the same category:
can king's justice crit w/o ms, b/c i have heard both that it doesn't

[Xanthe]

i also have a question in the same category:
can king's justice crit w/o ms, b/c i have heard both that it doesn't

If a WS doesn't say "Chance of critical varies with TP" in the description, it will never critical unless forced with Mighty Strikes (all hits) or Sneak Attack (first hit). So the answer to your question is no.

[Ashokan]

1. Hit by hit basis afaik
That's where I'm at, I've always thought it was per hit, since:


Rampage dramatically increases with Mighty Strikes, it wouldn't be as noticeable if it was all-or-nothing.
SA, TA and Gorgets' fTP only apply to the first hit, so I assume it does every hit seperate.
Reliable sources seem to post in terms of number of crits in a WS.
Calculators always ask for the number of crits.

I never considered the possibility it was any other way, so I'm just trying to be certain. :D


2. pass
Pretty much where I'm at as well. I thought I had read that crit% latent weapons didn't apply. But I can't remember for sure. Maybe it's more, maybe less.

[Valyana]

AFAIK all +crit gear affects WS except that weapon +crit only applies to hits with that weapon.

[noodles355]

Which is why you mainhand Senji over Fudo.

[Ashokan]

except that weapon +crit only applies to hits with that weapon.
Yea, definitely knew that. Maybe I'm just thinking of:


I think there just has been recent hot debate on blu forum whether dissector affects critical of blu spells or not... and then leading to whether crit+ of dissector affect the other hand weapon (the answer is not)

I thought I had seen something disputing if crit% effects WS on gear for something other than BLU spells, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

[Max™]

Crit +% Gear affects that hands hit during WS.
For 2hers it's all hits obviously.
For 1hers, it's main or offhand obviously <= Senj/Fudo vs Fudo/Senj reason there.

KJ doesn't crit naturally, you'd see 2500~3000 Dmg KJ's left and right if it did, it just rapes face in the right situations. If your targets have oddly high Agi (Dyna mobs seem too), and RR is kinda slacking, bust out a KJ.

[Talint]

KJ doesn't crit naturally, you'd see 2500~3000 Dmg KJ's left and right if it did, it just rapes face in the right situations. If your targets have oddly high Agi (Dyna mobs seem too), and RR is kinda slacking, bust out a KJ.

I guess I need a WAR primer.

There are instances where RR is better than KJ? Does the chance of cit really hit that often to warrant a usage over it?

[Max™]

If you push your Dex high enough, RR crits consistently.

When RR crits, women orgasm, babies cry, and angels rip the wings off bluebirds before spontaneously combusting.

[Masamune]

To my understanding, there are actually 2 types of crit% :
- your "natural" crit% from stats/gears/buffs
- the WS "innate" crit%, if it has "critical varies with TP".

So when you calculate the WS dmg, you use for each WS hit, BOTH of those values.
Which means in the case of KJ/RR, you would see some wtf dmg with KJ sometimes because all 3hits crited thanks to your natural crit%, despite KJ NOT having "critical varies with tp"; With RR though, you'll see more consistently crited hits since for each RR's hit, you are adding BOTH natural and Innate crit%*DeltaTP.
Correct me if i'm wrong.

Question: Where can i find definitive values for those innate crit% to multiply with dTP ?
Thanks in advance for your answers.

[Shinryuu]

I'll correct you, you're wrong. No weaponskill can crit unless forced to, unless the description reads "Chance of critical hit..."


Popular weaponskills are either:
- Increase fTP with TP (in-game described as damage)
- Increase ACC with TP
- Increase chance of critical hits with TP (meaning it can crit; other WSs cannot unless forced)

Depending on the WS the initial stuff differs greatly. Pretty sure Penta/Asuran don't gain any innate ACC, while some other ACC WSs do. There's a H2H crit WS that has an innate crit of like 50%, but Raging Rush/Drakesbane? 0%, fairly sure. Full Swing goes from 1 to 3 to 5 fTP (100/200/300) and Gekko goes from 1.5625 to 1.875 to 2.50.

Then there's some static stuff like additional hits being 1.0 fTP always, offhand hits being 1.0 fTP w/ offhanded weapon DMG, single-hit WSs gaining an ACC and pDIF bonus, and for Slugwinder, the -RACC. Also, the 8 hits cap applies, making DA useless for Asuran and not-so-awesome for dualwielded Hexa.

To elaborate, realistic scenario: 118 DEX in WS gear, Perdu voulge, pole grip (so no Rampager/Claymore) 4/4 crit merits, Raging Rush, 100 TP. Pretty sure RR's innate crit is 0%, and therefore each RR hit has a 24% chance of critting.

[Masamune]

Thank you for correction. But can you develop how you obtain this 24% number please ?
Also, i'm pretty sure (but not totally), crit rates varies with TP on such WSs, only pseudo-confirmation i found is RR page on wiki Raging Rush - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Raging_Rush)
...so do you mean this 24% number is fixed for each WS hit ? if not how that number varies ?

[Shinryuu]

20% from 5% base and then the extra DEX (15%), 4% from merits.

[Masamune]

ok thank you i got same result, just i dont feel weel well because it s kinda contradict the wiki page (and my experience/parsers wtf results) saying chances of crit increases with dTP... there should be an additional term *dTP somewhere maybe ?
In the example provided, in a "realistic" scenario, noone WS @ exactly 100%, more like 105-150+ %, which makes a non negligible dTP to account for... Unless wiki and dudes who posted that are completely wrong and i was smoking/drunk while looking at parsers XD

[hagun]

I guess I need a WAR primer.

There are instances where RR is better than KJ? Does the chance of cit really hit that often to warrant a usage over it?

I didn't take this seriously, because it must be a joke.

[Talint]

I didn't take this seriously, because it must be a joke.

Why? The comparison between KJ and RR is pretty deceiving on the surface. KJ is 50%/3 versus RR's 35%/3. I did not expect the "chance of critical hit" to be high enough to outweigh KJ (while pushing them past KJ's damage output), but it makes sense once you put all the pieces together.

Now I know. And knowing is half the... something or other.

[Argettio]

Why? The comparison between KJ and RR is pretty deceiving on the surface. KJ is 50%/3 versus RR's 35%/3. I did not expect the "chance of critical hit" to be high enough to outweigh KJ (while pushing them past KJ's damage output), but it makes sense once you put all the pieces together.

Now I know. And knowing is half the... something or other.

Yes RR chance of crit makes it > KJ at times.

This times are when you have reached the critical hit rate cap of 20% + merits + gear (WS in 115-120DEX at bird camp).

On mobs were you can't get a decent crit rate then KJ is likely to do better.

[Vejitta]

KJ modifiers may deny it but I yet have to see higher avarage dmg on KJ than on RR... on any mob, even if I'm putting every single STR gear I have during KJ (which is Alky over Heca only lol >.>).
But I would gladly read some way to improve KJ number, since this WS looks very nice.

[Masamune]

KJ modifiers may deny it but I yet have to see higher avarage dmg on KJ than on RR... on any mob, even if I'm putting every single STR gear I have during KJ (which is Alky over Heca only lol >.>).
But I would gladly read some way to improve KJ number, since this WS looks very nice.

Same got almost always better avg with RR than KJ, that's why i'm trying to better understand RR's mods regarding crit rates*DeltaTP.

[Shinryuu]

You use KJ when it doesn't kill the mob and it's going to make pretty lights off the last guy's WS; you're actually adding more damage that way. Of course, this won't show up on parsers, and e-peen is what really matters, so just spam RR. <_<

Regarding WSing at 105% crit: it's my understanding that between 100-200 TP effects scales linearly, and between 200-300 it does too. Example, at 150 TP Full Swing will have an fTP of 2.0. (1.0 at 100, 3.0 at 200). Say RR has +20% crit at 200 TP, and 0% (fairly sure, again) at 100. 105 will gives you an innate boost of 1% crit.

[Vejitta]

You use KJ when it doesn't kill the mob and it's going to make pretty lights off the last guy's WS; you're actually adding more damage that way. Of course, this won't show up on parsers, and e-peen is what really matters, so just spam RR. <_<
That's irrelevant. We're disscusing RR vs KJ avarage output alone, not what it's capable of in cooperation with other WSes.



Regarding WSing at 105% crit: it's my understanding that between 100-200 TP effects scales linearly, and between 200-300 it does too. Example, at 150 TP Full Swing will have an fTP of 2.0. (1.0 at 100, 3.0 at 200). Say RR has +20% crit at 200 TP, and 0% (fairly sure, again) at 100. 105 will gives you an innate boost of 1% crit.
Was that even proven (I mean 100tp gives no crit+ for RR)? And if it was, how and where are this test results?

[Max™]

Rampage and Vorpal give no Crit + at 100%, Nagamaki tested that a lot. Only shit like Backhand Blow, I assume Ascetics Fury, that one Drg WS that got changed to Crit hit but 1~2 hits, get significant +Crit at any value.

RR and DB should follow the Ramp/Vorp pattern, math shown for my gear sets and known damage averages lines up exactly with the assumption of WSing at 100~110% and getting 0~1% Crit boost at that TP value, only your dDex/Merits/Crit + shit affecting it.

KJ does better for me than RR in Dynamis, some Limbus zones, certain mobs in sea.

Attack is the main way to make KJ rock, I ONLY ever use it with Berserk up, Zerk down, RR > KJ 9 times out of 10.

2hring also rapes with KJ of course, 3.0 fTP at 100% no doubles, 50% Str mod, and the chance to toss out a big doubled light = ftw.

[dawdr]

Rampage and Vorpal give no Crit + at 100%, Nagamaki tested that a lot. Only shit like Backhand Blow, I assume Ascetics Fury, that one Drg WS that got changed to Crit hit but 1~2 hits, get significant +Crit at any value.

RR and DB should follow the Ramp/Vorp pattern, math shown for my gear sets and known damage averages lines up exactly with the assumption of WSing at 100~110% and getting 0~1% Crit boost at that TP value, only your dDex/Merits/Crit + shit affecting it.

KJ does better for me than RR in Dynamis, some Limbus zones, certain mobs in sea.

Attack is the main way to make KJ rock, I ONLY ever use it with Berserk up, Zerk down, RR > KJ 9 times out of 10.

2hring also rapes with KJ of course, 3.0 fTP at 100% no doubles, 50% Str mod, and the chance to toss out a big doubled light = ftw.

For what it's worth, I believe there was recent Evisceration testing over on Alla that showed it had a critical hit rate bonus of about 15% on top of your base rate, or at least the first hit did. I'll go dig around until I come across it, but if Evisceration can carry a bonus I wouldn't rule out a bonus for Raging Rush just yet.

Edit: Well that was faster than I expected. Here (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=10;mid=123723866770248007;num=27;pa ge=1) is the thread I was talking about. Sample size is only 350 weapon skills, but that should be enough to establish that there's at least a bonus of some kind.

[Masamune]

Rampage and Vorpal give no Crit + at 100%, Nagamaki tested that a lot. Only shit like Backhand Blow, I assume Ascetics Fury, that one Drg WS that got changed to Crit hit but 1~2 hits, get significant +Crit at any value.

RR and DB should follow the Ramp/Vorp pattern, math shown for my gear sets and known damage averages lines up exactly with the assumption of WSing at 100~110% and getting 0~1% Crit boost at that TP value, only your dDex/Merits/Crit + shit affecting it.

It's that math you mentioning i'm interested in, to guessestimate those Critical WSs "crit%=f(dTP) pattern". Problem is i found only this sentence @ wikipedia :

"Only weapon skills that say "Chance of critical varies with TP" can have a critical hit within the WS without forced critical (i.e. Sneak Attack or Mighty Strikes).
Base critical hit chance varies between weapon skills."

...which confirm what you guys were saying above, BUT how to estimate that (supposedly) linear crit%=f(dTP) (for TP above 100% of course) since all those crited WSs Rampage, RR, VB, Penta, Guillo, ...) all have fixed fTP values ? (to use the fullswing example mentioned above)
Also, i'd need to find at least one base value at a given tier (100, 200 or 300%), i could start assuming some have 0% "innate" crit% @ 100TP, but not all those WSs have same base crit chances ....

EDIT: wow extremely relevant thread yu got there Dawdr, thank you deeply ^^. Reading...

[Max™]

Pick a target which you can safely determine you have capped dDex on.

Determine your melee critical hit rate.

Calculate what your damage range for crit/non-crit would be.

Spam WSes and report the data.

I did this myself a long while back as I recall, should have had something like 24% Crit rate with my setup/byakko's/pole/any target below 60 something Agi.

Did it on Gigas bats which were one shotted by any hits, in Delkfutts. Got something like 26 Crit damage 1 hitters out of 100 tests, off by a little bit, but far too low to have any significant +Crit at 100% Tp.

Nagamaki's Jin/Vorpal tests were the same, and showed the same results, but he did his in Lufaise on Gigas Sheep.


Rampage, Vorpal, Jin, Backhand Blow, Raging Rush, Drakesbane, Evisceration, Ascetics Fury, Iron Tempest, and I think Impulse Drive are the only Crit TP WSes I can recall off the top of my head.

[Shinryuu]

- Vorpal Blade/Scythe/Thrust
- Dulling Arrow
- Arching Arrow
- Hexa Strike
- Rampage
- Keen Edge
- Raging Rush
- Evisceration
- Power Slash
- Backhand Blow
- Stringing Pummel
- Blade: Jin
- Sniper Shot
- Heavy Shot
- Skewer
- Drakesbane

Probably missing some.

[VZX]

Snipe Shot ignore defense, not a critical chance WS.

[Max™]

Funnily, I just noticed I typed Iron Tempest instead of Keen Edge, because an LS mate said they had a War in their party using SA/Keen Edge.

Instead of SA Sturmwind.

Also:6,666th post, ooh, strings of numbers which have no actual significance... much like most of my posts.

[Masamune]

Your last post Max contradicts itself saying "no actual significance" while actually Keen Edge is a nice idea for testing innate crit% depending on TP : one hit only WS ^^

[Valyana]

Keen Edge is a good WS for testing the innate crit% on Keen Edge, but it doesn't tell us anything about other WS: Backhand Blow has a different base rate than Rampage, for instance.

[Max™]

I meant the 6,666th post, because the whole superstitious bullshit about 666 is utterly fucking retarded.

Also, as was stated, Keen Edge won't help determine the crit rate of RR, only mobs which are 1 shotted by RR's first hit with predictable damage returns are.

My own testing to that effect shows 0% Crit bonus at 100% TP.

[Masamune]

0% @ 100TP for RR, ok np thats one info; now what about @ 200 & 300TP ?

Same for other "crited" WSs ?

If someone could direct me to threads with results on that topic, like that evisceration one posted previously, would be cool pleas

[Masamune]

Also, about yur testing Max, did yu just subtracted yur parsed crit rate to yur "natural" crit yu should have (like 24% under capped conditions) ?

[Shinryuu]

Yes, the way you test it, you get 100 TP (105 or so is fine) with capped DEX crit (20%) and (most likely) merits: 24% total. Now, the RR hit needs to oneshot the target. You'll have a say, 300 RR hit for non-crit, and a 380 for crit. Count the 300s. Count the 380s. Calculate percentage. If it's (close to) 24%, RR doesn't gain innate crit. The same test is done for 200% TP. Except it takes twice as long, hur.

[Max™]

4 Merits, High enough Dex to cap for shit like Greater Colibri, against targets where it's certain to cap Crit rate (Gigas Bats are my favorites), and yeah count the 300~ vs 400~ WSes.

I did 100 while trying to determine if gorget fTP applied to the second hits (it doesn't btw), and noted 26 Crits out of 100 WSes, which is well within margin of error for 24% Crit rate/+1~% for being slightly over 100% TP.