Grand Wyrms and Sleep resistance.

[Mashu]

Sorry for the relatively nubish question, but I was NIN/DRK on my shells' first timmy and I love having sleep I in my rotation of spells, but I was seeing negative consequences on the duration of ES+Sleeps. Was this merely bad luck / DoTs not fulling wearing or do Grand Wyrms build a sleep resistance??

I've been told both yes and no from various people on my server, but I'd like a more concrete answer .

thanks

p.s. gaiters / kote / horn <3!

[RKenshin]

Yes, spamming Sleep as a hate tool will reduce your chances of sleeping the Wyrm and the duration. Just like most other spells, spamming a particular spell will cause the mob to grow more and more resistant to it.

I usually don't use Sleep on anything that could potentially be slept, no matter how smooth or close to ending the fight is going.

But, in reality you should be fine without Sleep... Between casting Stun and Bind whenever they're up along with occasional debuffs and 4 Absorb spells, it's more than enough actions to take up the time in between recasts, and more than enough hate as well.

[Alastaire]

Yes, spamming Sleep as a hate tool will reduce your chances of sleeping the Wyrm and the duration. Just like most other spells, spamming a particular spell will cause the mob to grow more and more resistant to it.

I usually don't use Sleep on anything that could potentially be slept, no matter how smooth or close to ending the fight is going.

But, in reality you should be fine without Sleep... Between casting Stun and Bind whenever they're up along with occasional debuffs and 4 Absorb spells, it's more than enough actions to take up the time in between recasts, and more than enough hate as well.

Now my turn for a noobish question. You use Absorb spells when tanking? I've just stuck with Ninjutsu and Stun/Sleep/Bind (though I'm new to tanking with /DRK, I finished it about a month ago). Do you get considerable hate from them, comparable to the other spells?

[Lylie]

Most NMs / HNMs build a resistance to Gravity and Sleep. So it's not a very good idea to spam them, just like it's not a good idea for a RDM to spam Gravity while soloing/kiting.

[RKenshin]

Yes, spamming Sleep as a hate tool will reduce your chances of sleeping the Wyrm and the duration. Just like most other spells, spamming a particular spell will cause the mob to grow more and more resistant to it.

I usually don't use Sleep on anything that could potentially be slept, no matter how smooth or close to ending the fight is going.

But, in reality you should be fine without Sleep... Between casting Stun and Bind whenever they're up along with occasional debuffs and 4 Absorb spells, it's more than enough actions to take up the time in between recasts, and more than enough hate as well.

Now my turn for a noobish question. You use Absorb spells when tanking? I've just stuck with Ninjutsu and Stun/Sleep/Bind (though I'm new to tanking with /DRK, I finished it about a month ago). Do you get considerable hate from them, comparable to the other spells?

Yes, it's a good deal of hate.

I found that out the hard way through leveling DRK... Spamming 2-3 absorb spells in a row would often pull hate off of Voke+Flash in early levels. I used to use them often in early level exp just for the hell of it.

I would say it generates hate close to the amount that Sleep does if not more, only downside is they cost significantly more MP. But, typically I can get off 1-4 between Stun/Bind recasts and still be ok on MP (and I only have like 90).

[Alastaire]

Yes, it's a good deal of hate.

I found that out the hard way through leveling DRK... Spamming 2-3 absorb spells in a row would often pull hate off of Voke+Flash in early levels. I used to use them often in early level exp just for the hell of it.

I would say it generates hate close to the amount that Sleep does if not more, only downside is they cost significantly more MP. But, typically I can get off 1-4 between Stun/Bind recasts and still be ok on MP (and I only have like 90).

Awesome, thanks a bunch, I'll try playing around with that.

[Grey Jorildyn]

A number of times I have purposely spammed Sleep at Tiamat to try to see just how effected it's Sleep resistance actually is. I believe in one battle I got up to somewhere around 57 or so sleeps and we were able to elemental seal+Sleep II it later on without a problem, even after I had cast more sleeps in between those casts.

I think it's somewhat of a placebo effect. It takes a HUGE number of Sleeps to make a grand dragon even semi-resistant to Sleep and even so, with Elemental Seal (who is really gonna try to sleep without it?) that dragon is most likely going to fall asleep unless there's DoT on it.

Don't underestimate the power of sleep-hate. It may not sound worth the risk, but the risk-factor is in actuality greatly lower than most people assume, I think.

[RKenshin]

ES+Sleep will always land regardless as far as I know. It's not the resistance that's a problem when you're using ES, it's the duration. Typically a BLM can sleep it for I think 2 minutes? Unsure off my head, but it's something like that... But I know that in some instances where I've seen linkshells spam it's only lasted for like 30 seconds.

Either way I still don't think sleep hate is worth it if it affects resist rates. A well-equiped/skilled/supported NIN/DRK can generate enough hate to never lose it to mages/DDs throughout a fight with no one logging off and never using Sleep. If you can achieve that without using Sleep then I don't see any reasoning behind the risk.

[Delekii]

Ive never tested it myself, but it seems to me that for sleep resistance to build, sleep should actually have to land, right?

Ive always wondered when people say "dont use sleep for hate, it will build up resistance", but it makes no sense to me that if the mob isnt affected by the spell, it affects resistances..

[RKenshin]

I'd guess yes just remembering some fights with jailers... Everyone spamming Gravity in hopes that someone lands it usually makes the resistance build up a lot faster (what we did when we first started in sea), where having just one well-equiped RDM do it or a cycle of ES+Gravs would keep it weighed down much longer before it was to the point of wearing off after like 5-10 seconds.

Although I'm sure someone could easily test it all out for sure if they wanted to.

But, either way, I've landed sleep quite a few times on Tiamat just from messing around. Hell I landed Bind 5 times in my last Ultima fight... And a ton of Absorb spells on just about everything. Even as a NIN/DRK you do land things often, so I wouldn't really discount that.

[miokomioko]

I never cared to keep track of it before, but I'm curious if Lullaby spam (resisted or not) increases resistance to the spell Sleep. Is it just the effect of the spell ("sleep" in this case) that it builds a resistance to or is it the spell itself ("Sleep" vs "Lullaby") In the same way would Pinecone Bomb or whatever other sleep-inducing Blue Mage spell increase a mob's resistance to sleep?

[TB]

I would say it generates hate close to the amount that Sleep does if not more, only downside is they cost significantly more MP. But, typically I can get off 1-4 between Stun/Bind recasts and still be ok on MP (and I only have like 90).

So you don't use Kurayami at all? Just normal Dark Magic spells?

I'm always going Stun > Bind > Sleep > Kurayami and repeat. And yea, it's pretty impossible to lose hate with this rotation.

[Kirschy]

The way sleep resistance builds up is similar to how Elemental Magic is resisted. ES Sleep/Sleep II will almost always land(I've never seen it out right resisted, even with Sleep spam for hate.) Base duration of sleep is 60 seconds. Resisted(50%) sleep will last for 30 seconds, full resist(75%) will last for 15 seconds. Same applies for Sleep II which has a base duration of 90 seconds. The resistance it builds isn't permanent. Even if you build up resist on Timmy, Jorm, or something silly like Nidhogg, just stop with the sleep spam and in a relatively short period of time the resist fades to the point where an ES Sleep lands for a full duration.

Grats on the kill though~

[Orph]

On asura, we have seen a couple lses that have slept tiamat for the better part of an hour and never had any problems with short sleep durations or resists. I was under the impression because of this that the grand wyrms built up absolutely no resistance to sleep.

[Mashu]

The way sleep resistance builds up is similar to how Elemental Magic is resisted. ES Sleep/Sleep II will almost always land(I've never seen it out right resisted, even with Sleep spam for hate.) Base duration of sleep is 60 seconds. Resisted(50%) sleep will last for 30 seconds, full resist(75%) will last for 15 seconds. Same applies for Sleep II which has a base duration of 90 seconds. The resistance it builds isn't permanent. Even if you build up resist on Timmy, Jorm, or something silly like Nidhogg, just stop with the sleep spam and in a relatively short period of time the resist fades to the point where an ES Sleep lands for a full duration.

Grats on the kill though~

Yeah, as soon as we had one ES+Sleep2 that lasted for 5 or so secs, I took sleep I out of rotation. We were able to sleep it again for 30s or so (by a COR since ES timers were down ) later that fight.

(and thanks baby )

[Slott]

eh...depends how often you spam sleep. We used rdm/nin to tank a 6-8 am tiamat, and they used cs sleep2 to gain hate. wiped from mass roar/tardo smn using garuda pred claws while hate was fickle and it flailed. 4 hours later a diff ls tried her, she was still in pissed off mode and they couldnt land a sleep at all.

they wiped twice in a row then we got her back for an easy kill

[Sady]

On asura, we have seen a couple lses that have slept tiamat for the better part of an hour and never had any problems with short sleep durations or resists. I was under the impression because of this that the grand wyrms built up absolutely no resistance to sleep.

Possibly the single dumbest thing I've ever read... You should quit the internet!

J/k, but seriously, every single (H)NM in the game that can be slept will eventually build resistance. The same can be said for gravity. However, that being said, spells cast with Elemental Seal will not contribute to this (and if they do, the effect is negligible). Therefore, if you had a good ES order with the proper number of BLM or /BLM, you potentially could keep the mob slept indefinitely.

I've tested this out on a few occasions against Om'youvra (typically while people are jerking off and agroing the whole fucking zone before a Limbus raid). For the first say 10-15 minutes the NM will sleep no problem (IIRC 6 or 7 casts was the magic number), but after a certain number of sleeps your accracy drops significantly (at this point I either die and laugh or gravity and run). The same can be said for elementals in the Ouryu BCNM.

Against wyrms, I've found that the first non-ES sleep will typically stick assuming you have decent gear, the second is maybe 50/50 at best, and beyond that you're SOL...

[Orph]

I knew that ES was generally needed to sleep them reliably, but because of these certain lses zombie sleeping tiamat for an hour I was under the impression they didn't build up a resist. The times that I was watching these lses, I didn't notice any sleeps not lasting full duration unless a retarded smn attacked it.

I know if you sleep fafhogg enough, which one of these lses always did, it would pretty much say in the log Fafnir is no longer asleep. XXXX casts sleep on Fafnir. Fafnir receives the effect of sleep.

[LinktheDeme]

I never cared to keep track of it before, but I'm curious if Lullaby spam (resisted or not) increases resistance to the spell Sleep. Is it just the effect of the spell ("sleep" in this case) that it builds a resistance to or is it the spell itself ("Sleep" vs "Lullaby") In the same way would Pinecone Bomb or whatever other sleep-inducing Blue Mage spell increase a mob's resistance to sleep?

i'm wondering about this too and if it does factor in is corsairs light shot considered under lullaby becuase its light based or is it considered into is own category (Not sure if light shot builds resistance to me it seems like the more i use it the easier it is to land but could just be luck and only tested up to 3 times on a mob because of the one minute recast)

[Seditedi]

On asura, we have seen a couple lses that have slept tiamat for the better part of an hour and never had any problems with short sleep durations or resists. I was under the impression because of this that the grand wyrms built up absolutely no resistance to sleep.

Possibly the single dumbest thing I've ever read... You should quit the internet!

J/k, but seriously, every single (H)NM in the game that can be slept will eventually build resistance. The same can be said for gravity. However, that being said, spells cast with Elemental Seal will not contribute to this (and if they do, the effect is negligible). Therefore, if you had a good ES order with the proper number of BLM or /BLM, you potentially could keep the mob slept indefinitely.

I've tested this out on a few occasions against Om'youvra (typically while people are jerking off and agroing the whole fucking zone before a Limbus raid). For the first say 10-15 minutes the NM will sleep no problem (IIRC 6 or 7 casts was the magic number), but after a certain number of sleeps your accracy drops significantly (at this point I either die and laugh or gravity and run). The same can be said for elementals in the Ouryu BCNM.

Against wyrms, I've found that the first non-ES sleep will typically stick assuming you have decent gear, the second is maybe 50/50 at best, and beyond that you're SOL...

ES still builds to the resistance, take Kirin for example, your first 5-6 ES Gravity will work well and last decent amount of time, afterwards ES will still land, but last like 15 seconds and get considerably shorter each time thereafter, dunno about Sleep II, ES gravity causes this resistance build considerably fast on Kirin and Jailer of Faith.