What Makes A Good Game?

[Rionel]

Something that's been swimming in my mind for a while.

When I read a lot of posts here on BG, I tend to get the overall feeling of apathy or bitterness when it comes to a lot of games. This is purely just my impression though.

So that kind of makes me curious: what kind of game makes it worthwhile, or wholesome, or even just fun?

I know there are some factors that may make people want to invalidate each other like nostalgia, fan bias, or even being over critical or just unreasonably pessimistic, but I'm hoping to get even just a small, brief discussion so long as its constructive or well thought out.

Part of it is just me thinking about making games myself, another is just pure interest since I'm a gamer myself (these days, maybe not so intense since I'm getting so busy lately). Another part is hearing well thought out discussions about it like on Penny Arcade's Extra Credits series (really interesting discussions about a whole bunch of game topics) or even EgoRaptor's sequelitis series.

I dunno, am I just crazy for wanting to talk about this? It just seems so fascinating to know what makes games impact us in a more meaningful or greater way. Heck, or just what makes it plain fun.

I hope this can invoke a little thoughtful, reasonable discussion but... I do know this is BG we're talking about here (I suppose it could be worse, right?)

[Exoduso]

If it's an RPG, of any kind, I honestly care more about story than gameplay or aesthetics. Yes, gameplay is important, but in an RPG setting the gameplay can be terrific but I still won't play it til the end if the story is boring past the 5~ hour mark. As for graphics, honestly who cares anymore, everything looks more or less the same, and truth be told, I enjoyed the PSX FFs more than any current-gen jRPGs with fancy cutscenes.

If it's not an RPG, it's strictly gameplay for me. That includes stuff like action games (gow, dmc, etc.) or shooters.

[Kuishen]

Fun.

[Kaisha]

Fun.

This, or the game having a good pay-off for your time investment, even if some aspects of it are crud. Very subjective....subject though.

[Julian]

Only care for RPG's, so:

Story and Gameplay.

There are three ways to go about this:

Some games have exceptionally good story, that you can forgive simple or weak gameplay (Suikoden comes to mind, although the gameplay isn't terrible, it's just nice and simple. It's a game where you're really playing more for the story, rather than the fun of all the little intricacies with gameplay)

Other games have really good gameplay, but a bland/weak/simple story. To me, Star Ocean and Tales of games fill this category. Gameplay is fun as hell, but it's strong enough to make up for the lacking story.

Ideally, you'd want a game that's strong in both of these, but I honestly can't think of any that have fit that bill for me. I also usually find games that "excel enough in one to make up for deficiencies in the other" more fun than ones that try to balance them out, ending up in something average. I mean, if I try to put some numbers, I'd say Suikoden 2 would be something like, Story 10 Gameplay 4~5, whereas a game like FF6 might be Story 7 Gameplay 7, but that "Story 10" is just way more memorable when I'm looking back and thinking "Man, that was a fucking awesome game."

Thinking about it, another thing for me would definitely be characters. How likeable, cool/relateable/hot/awesome/whateverapplies they are. Both in terms of the cast in general, and who I like/dislike, but also their growth/interactions with each other. A game can be awesome, but unless I can fill a party with characters I really like, it's going to be less fun to play. One series with really likeable characters is Fire Emblem. While the gameplay and story are both pretty mediocre/average (although still fun enough to be enjoyable,) the awesome cast of characters helps make up for it. If all of the characters were ugly pieces of shit with no personality like most axe users, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed it as much. >_>

Edit: and to lesser extents

Music: Not a requirement, mute exists for a reason, I often find myself playing portable games without sound anyway, etc. Although, amazing music goes a long way to making a game memorable. It doesn't exactly drive me to replay games, but listening to it brings me back memories of it.

Graphics: For me, less is more. As long as the graphics create a good atmosphere for the game, I could really care less. I do hate it when people think that higher end graphics are the only way to go, and you end up with mediocre games with pretty scenery. Am I the only one who misses world maps? Good traditional JRPG's are what's missing from this generation.

[Manako]

I enjoy narrative in my game, but I agree with Julian that to me its more about character depth and less about the plot. Its difficult to find games that are not massive cliches but that doesn't seem to matter so long as the characters aren't made of cardboard.

A good game is a fun game I suppose the question remains what makes a game fun, especially considering varying taste. Things that add to the overall fun of the game is having good feedback loops and highlighting the player's rewards. Chests that bounce and explode out with newly collected items, when they player beats a level or defeats and enemy the game stops and tells you that you are awesome. Its also important to make sure that players feel like they have attainable goals within the game, know where they are supposed to be going and feel like they are accomplishing things in game. Things that detract from a game would be like, poor control schemas, lengthy/poorly designed tutorials, inappropriate difficulty scaling/balance. Difficulty is a problem because for larger games they need to consider a larger audience with varying skill levels, smaller indie games don't have this issue (hello super hexagon.)

This book is very popular when talking about fun in games: http://www.amazon.com/A-Theory-Fun-G...=theory+of+fun

Also, I like this book because its very well written, touches on fun in context of why real life is "boring" compared to games: http://www.amazon.com/Reality-Broken...lity+is+broken

I play a lot of different types of games and I always find it interesting to figure out WHY I can't stop playing a particular game, or if everyone I know is talking about a game I can't understand, I try to figure out what about it appeals to them.

[Brill Weave]

A great story can help me overlook a lot of game play flaws. If the story is engaging and genuinely interesting I will keep playing. The Yakuza series for example is a repetitive beat em up series. But the stories in them are top notch(imo) and make for an extremely entertaining play through. Most of the games/series that I love the most have fantastic story lines. Usually the games I own are a revolving door. But the Yakuza, Lunar, Valkyria series are all games that I'll never get rid of.

[Null]

Music and story.

There are many games that I love just for the gameplay and grind such as the recent Borderlands 2 (Although the story is very funny as well.)

But immersion is what's most important to me. I say music is just important as the story honestly. I can hear songs such as Enclosure, Father and Son and be taken back to how I felt during those moments of Metal Gear. Or Crossing those hills from Final Fantasy IX still brings back the feeling of joy I had playing that game over a decade ago.

The story of course being equally important. But like all stories it has to have a good / satisfying ending. Looking over the Metal Gear Solid series I constantly regard MGS3 as my favorite. But in all honesty the story didn't have me gripped as much as MGS1 or MGS4. That is until the ending brought it all full circle and I cried like a man bitch.

[Drai]

Every Genre has its own reason for playing them, when I play an RPG I want the story to make me WANT to comtinue to see how it unfolds, i'm also a completionist so the more side content a very enjoyable game has. the better.

I don't play many shooters, but if I do it has to have coop campaigns, I hate playing shooters alone and don't usually like having 12 year olds yell at me during "slayer" matches or any of that kind of multiplayer.

Party games with multiple friends, Dokapon Kingdom, nuff said. (WiiU version "Can I Have It?")

[miokomioko]

Other than a great story (that doesn't hit major predictable cliches), a large variety of (fun) activities yielding a large variety of collectibles.

[Hitoshura]

If it's an RPG, of any kind, I honestly care more about story than gameplay or aesthetics. Yes, gameplay is important, but in an RPG setting the gameplay can be terrific but I still won't play it til the end if the story is boring past the 5~ hour mark. As for graphics, honestly who cares anymore, everything looks more or less the same, and truth be told, I enjoyed the PSX FFs more than any current-gen jRPGs with fancy cutscenes.

If it's not an RPG, it's strictly gameplay for me. That includes stuff like action games (gow, dmc, etc.) or shooters.

Man I bet you must loathe the Ys series. Ironically it's one of my favorites despite the lackluster story, the gameplay is some of the best seen in RPG history, music is GODTIER, and most challenging RPG games I think.

By a fuckin' long shot.

[Cream Soda]

As everyone else said, RPGs are mainly story for me. Even if it's the super generic turn based with few abilities, I still like it if I can follow the story. There was an Inuyasha game on ps2, fucking loved it since I was a big fan of the show, even though the gameplay elements weren't all there.

Non rpgs def = gameplay.

Graphics are a nice bonus, but don't make the decision for me in any way.

[Damane]

easy to access, yet a bit demanding in gameplay
fun gameplay
not too long, but also not too short
great story.
nice atmosphere (music and graphics playing well together, graphic doesnt have to be high end, if it fits the game well and establishes a good atmosphere)


not fun:
letting you revisit levels just because you need to collect shit (i hate this, examples: riddler statues in arkham city, coins in mario games etc etc.)
draaaged out gameplay that repeats itself: The first assasins creed for example, was the same over and over and OVER again, the sequels were better, but even those had some times stretches in it.

[Rionel]

Wow, thank you guys for your responses. So far, it seems like if it's an RPG, story seems to be the most important factor while gameplay can take a back seat if it's good enough... The reverse for every other genre.

At least, this is what I'm gathering so far.

Let me try to ask something more specific. When I think about RPGs, I get the feeling that it's a tough genre to be innovative with. It's usually some sort of turned based combat, like you pick your action, it does it for you. Not that I don't mind it, but sometimes I feel like there's lacking in player involvement, you know?

The Paper Mario/Mario and Luigi RPG series, or even Super Mario RPG Legend of the Seven Stars, comes to mind for active player involvement. Everything that happens in battle almost always involves a little mini game that requires you to active participate, if that makes sense. I think that's really great that you could get a sense of kind of contributing to the heroes actions in some way other than just giving them equipment or commanding them to do abilities... It's you that actively shape the outcome of their battle prowess or success in almost everything they do. From timing on attacks to playing the mini games for special abilities, it's kind of refreshing for me. Unfortunately, I know this series is also known to be a bit too easy... But it's still a nice start.

Things like the Tales games are definitely interesting since it delves into more active game play in RPGs and can definitely be fun. But I do find sometimes it can delve a bit into the "spammy a a a" territory once in a while (Kingdom Hearts Syndrome of you will, haha). The same sort of applies with Star Ocean. I just remember for both those games that at one point, once you get that big huge multi hitting skill for your characters, you literally just spam them and kind of mindlessly overwhelm your enemy like that. Thoughtfulness and strategy seem to fly out the window.

But not to be a total downer on that, I do love how playing two players or more makes it all the more fun. It brings me back memories of playing Secret of Mana with my younger sister. I don't think many RPGs can really do that, and I think it's a great feature that I wish would be featured more often.

Valkyrie Profile is another interesting RPG style that comes to mind, but it does devolve a bit like I mentioned above.

But what do you guys think? What's your idea of player involvement or participation in an RPG mean to you? Does it matter? Does it make it more fun? Your thoughts are definitely appreciated.

[Julian]

It's fun when you get those big bad ass spamming skills, because you start to just rape everything. :D

10kvolts/teargas
poison/explosion pills
regular attacks w/ the star sparkly things/mirror slice(iirc?)
alpha on one/healing star

8)

At least for me. That's just gameplay that's fun to play. Yeah, there's no strategy, but there's more strategic games out there when you want that.

[Zanz L. Barre The 3rd]

Single-player: Story, music, atmosphere, character progression (RPG elements, stats, leeling, etc.)
Multi-player: Balance, progression (incentive to "improve"), and community

The culmination of these aspects makes a game fun for me.

[Dareus]

What makes a good game for me would be Story, Challenge, and music. I find that when I look back at the "Greatest games I've ever played" Things like graphics never even come into play.

[Pharaun]

But what do you guys think? What's your idea of player involvement or participation in an RPG mean to you? Does it matter? Does it make it more fun? Your thoughts are definitely appreciated.

During boss battles sure it can help, but when you're leveling grinding or just trying to plow through a dungeon and have to pay attention to stupid easy battles it's retarded and I'd rather just spam A/X/Enter/Whatever button and be done with it.

[Tajin]

Now that I cant sit for hours to play a game. The ability to pause and continue often is very welcome. A bad example of this is FF13 and the polar opposite would be MGS4 with hours long cutscenes.

I also dislike timed games (timed stages are ok) but forced timed games to get the better endings no thanks.
Besides that, high up in my list would be music, gameplay and story.
Rest has been said by someone else already.

[Thulius]

During boss battles sure it can help, but when you're leveling grinding or just trying to plow through a dungeon and have to pay attention to stupid easy battles it's retarded and I'd rather just spam A/X/Enter/Whatever button and be done with it.

At that point why even have the battle system? Why not just randomly reward your party with exp and items as you walk along the map? Any system that exists only to waste your time is already fundamentally flawed, but making it more engaging is at least one step towards solving the problem.

Typically RPGs with more active battle systems are the ones that require the least grinding anyway because you can get away with being under leveled by actually being good at the game. There's definitely a place for character progression in single player games, but there's no reason it can't coincide with the gameplay.

Dark souls is a good example of a game that uses your character's strength to push you in the right direction without explicitly cutting off areas or telling you where to go, and if you as a player are good enough you can go somewhere you "shouldn't" and be successful anyway. The idea that any gameplay section should be completely devoid of player interaction is nuts to me.