Programming

[Denchi]

So my major in college was philosophy, and needless to say, it's been hard to find a job. Another friend of mine has insisted that I should check out programming. I actually took Java in college (my freshman year, so I remember basically nothing), but my favorite subject in philosophy was symbolic logic. I enjoyed lines and lines of logical codes.....would make sense how that enjoyment might pass over to programming.

ANYWAYS, he's signed me up for a website, lynda.com, to allow me to kinda explore and learn some languages and see if I like anything/what diff stuff I like. But he is telling me to start with asp.net, then move onto SQL, and then dabble in PHP. My brother, on the other hand, is telling me not to waste my time with asp.net, and maybe just do PHP or C.

Any programmers here who have opinions on useful languages? Things that are good for beginners? Whether or not this is a useful endeavor at all? I'm more or less completely new to programming, but if I can gain some useful knowledge from this site, as little or as much as it may be, it could be helpful! Either in getting a job, or just for funsies.

[Yabby]

I personally think people should start out with VB ( That's my opinion and nothing else) because its a great beginner language.
As for getting jobs
Java, C*, PHP are always useful, but then again i havn't looked into the job market for those in a few years, and shit moves fast in that industry.

[Thoronas]

PHP is still big. Java is good if you want to do more desktop software I guess, I dabble more in PHP because I work in web design. I've heard that if stick with say Java the transition to other languages is pretty easy as the syntax remains mostly the same with slight differences. Im no expert though.

[zoobernut]

I think it really depends on what you want to program. Each place will require a different language. But usually if you can provide evidence that you are very proficient in one language they will train you in a new one because once you learn one language others will come more easily. That being said if you want to program for a software company or a game company c* or C++ seem to be the most common at least from what I have seen. Other languages that I have seen a lot are python, and lua.

[Ashmada]

I'd recommend C.

Firstly because unlike some languages, especially older ones (Fortran, COBOL and the like), it offers a great amount of freedom and that freedom teaches you to be both inventive and careful when programming.
Basically, while some languages will tell you "can't do that", C tells you "sure, you can. You won't like the results, but feel free to try."

Secondly because it makes it easier to then learn object-oriented languages like C++ and Java, since they're based on C.

Thirdly because it's a lot more fun for those that like logic.
See the "freedom" above, you can come up with a lot of different solutions to the same problem while in say, COBOL, you'd be restricted to one boring solution (I hate COBOL with a passion.)

[Eliseos]

If you're really serious about wanting to get a job out of this, you're going to want to go to school for it. Most employers require some kind of degree (either working towards one in an internship setting, or finished one for an actual job). In fact, I don't remember ever seeing an internship or actual job posting that didn't require some kind of degree in computer science, MIS etc. There is a lot you won't learn just coding off of some website, and you won't stand out against other people competing for the same job; efficiency, data structures, many class programs, etc.

That said, I'd suggest starting with Java. Grab a book on it ( http://www.amazon.com/Java-Introduct...3620740&sr=8-1 was my text book in my intro to java programming class) and see how you like it. It will get you used to the basics of programming, and it's a really easy language to get into. Most employers around here use it also, even the universities are switching from C++ to Java. I wouldn't start with something like PHP, as it can be pretty difficult for beginners, being a scripting language.

http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/ is a great IDE to use to program in Java. They have a free version that will do everything you will ever need. It's really easy to get started in it, and they have a helpful online guide for most issues that you'll run into. I use the professional version at my job, and most other places use it too (I know Google uses it for their Java projects).

[Korietsu]

If you want to learn to program: C, C++, Assembly for embedded devices. Ruby, rails, java for web based applications, and then learn whatever else on an as needed basis.

[Jefe]

C.

[Skjie]

Python was designed as a language for teaching.

[Chezo]

^so was smalltalk but I wouldn't suggest you learn programming on it, I would say java or C++ like most people here are saying. But in the end you will need to go to school for it, because there are a lot of things to learn about besides language basics.

[Maguspk]

I wouldn't take any advice in this thread except for going to school and learning. Learning a language is stupid, you need to learn concepts, that's what makes a good programmer. Languages aren't something you learn and magically program well in they're just a tool to apply the concepts you should understand. You can 'know' C and still right fucking shitty code, this applies for all programming languages, in fact the people recommending C for a beginner are fucking stupid because you won't be using C in anything practical in the near future and you won't need to know half the things you need to know to write good C code. In the end you need an education somehow where you learn the concepts and not a language and the most likely place you'll find that is at a good school.

Python is a very easy and practical language to learn, it is used very widely in most modern companies where people are programming often (like Google, NSA, CIA, etc.)

Edit: LOL @ VB suggestion, if you want to permanently ruin your mind and render it incapable of ever producing elegant code, then sure, learn BASIC or a language even remotely related to BASIC like VB.

Edit 2: Also, if you do not like advanced mathematics then programming is not for you. Being a good programmer relies heavily on being able to prove your program is efficient and knowing how you can improve the complexity of your code at a very basic level.

[Julian]

Use Ruby, crush the Python!

[Ashmada]

You can 'know' C and still right fucking shitty code, this applies for all programming languages, in fact the people recommending C for a beginner are fucking stupid because you won't be using C in anything practical in the near future and you won't need to know half the things you need to know to write good C code.

Ironing.

[Evanos]

I know what I am about to say is largely similar to what others have already stated but hopefully it can help you out some in your decision.
First and foremost, what do you plan on doing with your programming? Is this sparked by a desire for a career change? Are you looking for something fun and creative to do? Are you just looking to expand your fields of expertise? Well, what you intend to do with your programming should play a large factor in your decision.

If you are looking for job prospects the Windows High-level programming languages are very sought after as a large number of applications are written for and use Windows. There are, however, a very high number of companies looking for strong programmers in Linux (largely Perl and Python) and cross-platform languages (Java).

In the company I work for our head program developer is largely a Linux based programmer (Perl, Python) but he also can do Windows languages as well. If it makes you feel any better actually he has no degree in Computer Science but majored in Philosophy (about 20 years ago) and is a self-taught programmer. He did most of his learning by book diving and contributing to open-source projects, which helped him land a job writing software for a research firm and then eventually at my company (where he makes over 200k a year with a bachelor's and no formal training in his field; granted, he has been in the game for a very long time).

My position is an intermediary between those who actually use the software and the developer himself so I have been talking with him recently about paths to take to learn programming and he recommended that even if I plan on using Windows in the long run to start with Python to learn how to program. He recommended taking some relevant math classes in the field and some logic classes to have a strong base in those areas as well. The reasoning he gave me for learning Python over other more trending languages such as Java (which has seen a huge surge due to things such as Android and demand for cross platform applications) because Python is a great language for learning how to think about coding, makes you learn discipline, and to learn dynamic programming. He said that it is best to start writing with a dynamic language and then it will be easier to overcome some of the weaknesses inherent in a static programming language, and most importantly to not learn to think around those flaws early on.

If you are planning on doing web apps or scripting Python is also a very powerful language, but it would be useful to learn either PHP or Javascript also (HTML is fairly easy and can be learned simultaneously with other languages in my opinion).

Hopefully this helps you out a little, but largely what you decide should be guided by what you plan to do with your programming. If you are hoping to design applications for Android for example, Python won't do anything for you other than teach you the fundamentals of programming.

[Antithesis]

If you are a beginner and have no prior knowledge of programming I would easily recommend starting with either Java or Ruby. Java is, for the most part, very "do it like so." It is a verbose language so expect to see very long function (method) calls and syntax but all in all it is a very well made and structured language. Ruby's syntax is designed with simplicity and humans in mind. The syntax is more human than most other languages as well has having very nifty shortcuts for certain things. What could take one hundred lines of code in C could be fifty in Ruby (Although Ruby is considerably slower, often referred to more as a scripting language than a programming language.) I believe either Java or Ruby would be very nice introductions to programming if you want to see what its all about.

Although C and C++ are also very good languages to learn, I wouldn't recommend them to beginners simply because of how messy it feels compared to the other languages (Personally opinion.) Granted, C is one of the faster languages out there.

[Fhqwghads]

C and or C++. If you can tackle that and take a computer science course, 90% of the learning process is done. You'll know about processor architecture as well as the fundamentals of how computers work, and then apply that knowledge by manipulating them to do your bidding using low level languages that allow direct access to memory management. Knowing how to put together your own linked lists, dynamically allocate and free memory, etc. Multi-threading when you feel really adventurous. The bottom line is you'll either be driven by fascination, or you'll give up because it's not your thing. Try knocking out some really trivial crap, like bouncing pixels around in a square. It can be a lot of fun if you're doing the right projects and tackling problems that won't overwhelm you.

[njitjk68]

The languages you learn depends on what type of job you want to get. For example, what your friend mentioned would be good in getting your feet wet in a database career.

What also helps is learning to use operating systems other than Windows, as different companies use different environments to develop on.

However, as others have mentioned, I recommend going to school and getting a degree. The times aren't like 10-15 years ago, in which any joe schmoe was able to read a few books and snag a job without a degree. Most places won't even acknowledge you without at least a bachelors degree, unless you have some very good connections.


Go to school -> learn the basics -> find an area to specialize in.

[Zhais]

A lot of what Magus said hit the nail on the head. It sucks going back to school, but once you know the programming concepts you're golden. Learning a language after the first is nothing if you know the concepts behind them. I regularly jump between 4~5 different languages and environments every day for work.

That being said, lot of places will start you off in Java. Fairly easy language to learn, and you can learn Object-Oriented design/programming concepts with them. C++ is a good one to know a bit more about pointers and the like ( fun stuff, while not incredibly applicable all the time).

And to echo a bit more, degree always helps. You don't /have/ to specialize at all in programming. You learn the concepts, then you figure out what you want to do. I went from writing desktop apps in Flash/C# to developing web application/systems in classic/.net asp, sql, etc. I still want to get into game development some day, but that won't happen for a while.

If you ever have questions regarding programming, development, school, languages, careers etc feel free to shoot me a pm. I manage to get in on every programming post on BG if I can, and love to help out as much as I can


Also: on the topic of VB. VB.NET as it is now isn't all that far off from C#. Syntax it's different, but it's evolved leaps and bounds over classic asp (vbscript) and vb 6. With a few differences, it's the same exact language. Not much reason to hate on it any more, although the stigmas and ideas attached still exist.

[Denchi]

Wow! Thanks for the replies.

If it wasn't made clear, I DO have a degree in Philosophy, but if I am reading correctly....you all mean to get a CS degree or something along those lines. Just from what you guys are saying, and this economy, you're probably right, just learning a language or two won't put me at the top of the list for any jobs. And no, it's not my main reason for wanting to check programming out. I just want to see if I like it! If he helps me somewhere down the road that's great.

Other than that, C and Java seem to be the frontrunner for a simple "learning" language.

Also, no, math has never been my strong point but that doesn't mean I couldn't try harder and take some courses. What is it about math that makes it so important in programming? I understand logical systems from Symbolic Logic, and showing your work, but if it's vastly different then maybe I need to take some more classes :-/ (I mean, eventually, if I end up liking this stuff)

[Zhais]

If you do website work or desktop application work (UI, or simple stuff) you won't need /as/ much math.

I had to take 2 calc courses in college, but I haven't used a lick of calc once in programming outside of classes ( a small amount for a personal game project as well). That's just a virtue of my current job. If I get into game development, need to do a shit-ton of math.