Is one side of RMT hated and the other embraced?

[AoE]

Time for people to agree to disagree yet?

[Ramses]

Actually, you can't, and that was my point.

Morality and maturity are on one side, selfishness and immaturity on the other. That much is plain and simple. Saying "Hey, I did it, so what? And I got some money for myself" does not make you mature...

The only vague relationship this has with abortion or any other issue like that is that it has two sides. The difference here is that there is only one defensible side. The only defense for the side that says selling accounts is ok is that you don't give a fuck about other people, and therefore feel fine selling an account.

Morality is opinion. There is no such thing as right and wrong without humans pondering and having an opinion about it. Our accepted morals are based on consensus of the vast majority. There is no vast majority opinion on either side here so you cannot claim any moral high ground. You can state your opinions all you want, but claiming morality will lose intellectual points for your argument.

[Ksandra]

It's not that the assumption is that nothing you did together is valid anymore, it's more about the concept of being abandoned. "Oh, you're leaving us now, after all we did?" Most times, that's not an expression said with a smile on your face. At best, it's a bittersweet moment because they are pissed you are leaving, but happy if it's helping them in some way.

My point was that most people will probably not take their friend leaving the game and selling the account with smiles and laughter. I wouldn't qualify it as lack of maturity either, it's just general human response.

Think of it outside of game terms if you have to. "Yeah, sorry, I'm moving away. It's not you, it's me. ...and I'm selling the stuff we made together to fund the trip." Who is really happy about that?

I think we misunderstood each other. When I mean the friend as upset, it was not as you described. I've had tons of friends leave the game (one of the reasons I find the game boring now), and of course its never a happy moment. My point was not that feeling of missing them. But there can be two feelings


1. I will miss my friend (what you were describing)

2. I think my friend is a terrible person for selling their acc and is immature (what I was referring to, which is ringthree's attitude).

Number 1, quite frankly, has absolutely nothing to do with selling your acc. That reaction will happen whether someone sells their acc, deactivates their acc, deletes their acc, gets their acc stolen, etc. I don't consider this feeling relevant to the thread because this thread is about the reactions to selling acc, not reactions to friends leaving the game in general. Like I said I feel this all the time, but I don't feel less about the person who chooses to leave the game. They have a right to stop playing.


Number 2, however, is what this thread is mostly about. This is the reaction I'm referring to that ringthree and others have said. The sense of higher morality because they don't want nor need to sell their acc. And again, who wants a friend that looks down on you and considers themselves morally superior. And how in this sense is the friend not also selfish.

Morality is opinion. There is no such thing as right and wrong without humans pondering and having an opinion about it. Our accepted morals are based on consensus of the vast majority. There is no vast majority opinion on either side here so you cannot claim any moral high ground. You can state your opinions all you want, but claiming morality will lose intellectual points for your argument.

^ What I was basically trying to say.

All I am trying to say/prove, is it definitely isn't as black and white as ringthree is trying to make it seem.

[Tempyst]

Women bearing their faces or skin in public is morally wrong.

Morality and righteousness are on one side, godlessness and infidelity on the other. That much is plain and simple.

[ringthree]

Morality is opinion. There is no such thing as right and wrong without humans pondering and having an opinion about it. Our accepted morals are based on consensus of the vast majority. There is no vast majority opinion on either side here so you cannot claim any moral high ground. You can state your opinions all you want, but claiming morality will lose intellectual points for your argument.

There are also those that believe the morality of murder is opinion. Some opinions are just wrong. Just because some things can be shades of gray does not mean everything should be treated as morally acceptable just because some people think they should be allowed to do whatever they want. That is an immature moral construction.

You can't possibly be saying that people that actually make moral judgments and evaluate the morality of their actions are stupid... because that itself... is stupid. Calling someone else dumb so that you can justify your own greedy and selfishness is laughable at best.

Sure, there are rare moral exceptions to the situation, there always are, and we deal with those moral conflicts on a case by case basis. Just because there are rare exceptions does not mean that we should just throw our hands up in the air and accept everything else with it.

[ringthree]

Number 2, however, is what this thread is mostly about. This is the reaction I'm referring to that ringthree and others have said. The sense of higher morality because they don't want nor need to sell their acc. And again, who wants a friend that looks down on you and considers themselves morally superior. And how in this sense is the friend not also selfish.

Who wants a friend that is so passive as to let their friends do whatever they want no matter how selfish or detrimental to themselves? You expect all of your friends to be doormats?

[Ryko]

There are a lot better things to put one's foot down in a friendship than what someone does after they stop playing a game.

[Ksandra]

Who wants a friend that is so passive as to let their friends do whatever they want no matter how selfish or detrimental to themselves? You expect all of your friends to be doormats?

V I D E O G A M E


how detrimental is it to affect a video game that it should ruin a friendship?


No health is hurt, and in fact more often or not health can get better from cutting off from an mmo. You really are making a mountain out of a mole-hill lol. But at least it gives me something fun to read.

[Nattack]

In a game like diablo, where the economy is only held together by word of mouth its fine really - though still retarded. i paid 10bux for a trag'ouls skull and ill never get that 10bux back. that, and it generates those spam messages you hear EVERY FIVE SECONDS "hay wanna buy some cool gear?"

in ffxi its a bit more complicated.. {{overstated reason here}}

[ringthree]

There are a lot better things to put one's foot down in a friendship than what someone does after they stop playing a game.

So says the account seller. Sorry if I don't think your opinion amounts to much at all. :/

[ringthree]

V I D E O G A M E


how detrimental is it to affect a video game that it should ruin a friendship?


No health is hurt, and in fact more often or not health can get better from cutting off from an mmo. You really are making a mountain out of a mole-hill lol. But at least it gives me something fun to read.

I already answered this, you are just repeating yourself on this fact. Ultimately you argument boils down to "it's ok to screw your friends over, as long as it's online!" This is not FFX, selling your account is not like selling the game disc back to Game Stop.

Part of the problem with the internet is that people actually believe that their actions have no consequence, that for some reason the human contact, in some cases years of human contact amount to nothing. Again, I would argue that only a selfish and immature perspective could come to this conclusion.

I would agree, I enjoy the conversation.

[LD]

The only way to get people like you on board, is to find out where you live and hold a gun to your head 24/7. So yes, there is something I could do, but you're not really worth it.

If you are so convinced that my suggestion won't do any good, why are you arguing so strongly against it? After all, if it's doomed to fail, then there should be no need for you to say anything. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Spoiler: show

The cancer analogy doesn't suggest that there's nothing you can do. It states what you do doesn't matter unless you have the power to back it up (e.g. the medical field's science or the cancer's ability to fight against it). Also, the patient can work in tandem with the medical organization by taking care of themselves and taking note of their symptoms. The two don't work against the cancer independently, it can only ever be a team effort; without the patient, there is nothing for the doctors to heal and without the doctors, the patient slowly dies.
You have no power, I have no power, and despite the many people on this board who want the same thing, we still can't get SE to do anything about the very obvious problems within the game (3 kings, etc.) The problem with your assertion that we're acting like powerless victims is we frequently complain about everything that's wrong. If we just accepted it, we wouldn't complain, would we? See, it's so that we can get every bit of information out there for SE to digest, if they ever care to. There are only 3 things we can do: report any abuse we see, attack those we believe to be committing them, or plead to SE to do more about the situation. There is nothing else that can be done and YOU haven't suggested anything that people aren't already doing and in larger numbers than you know or care to admit.

I'm tired of self-righteous twats who can't even pull it off. You are not MLK, you are not Gandhi, you are not Galileo, your are a douchebag bitching at someone in a video game forum. How DARE you compare yourselves to them while back-peddling with all your might. So somehow you can chastise us about how we operate, something you can't even know with any certainty, but since you can't do anything about our apparent apathy, which you've been saying all this time is part of the problem, you can just forget about it while still calling us weak, willfully ignorant, and lazy? You have absolutely no right to make yourself out as some sort of freedom fighter. At least have the balls to admit you're jumping all over the place to make yourself right and save face. The fact is if I could break your hands, I would, but then you'd get a Stephen Hawking chair and I'd have an assault charge hanging over my head. So I'd do a dime in the clink while you'd still be typing horseshit that distracts from the comparitively reasonable posts other people are making.

It becomes about your heartfelt crusade against ignorance, huh? What about mine? I have to deal with dumbasses without 2 atoms to rub together in their skull and I still have to repeat every completely logical and irrefutable point I cull from my vast intellect just so it can be ignored by some people and shit on by others. However, at least I never pretend that my efforts are meaningful in the grand scheme of things or meaningless to me and the points I'm making. Why? Because I'm saying this crap in a video game form and I tend to make large posts. The political crap I frequently segue into will have absolutely no measurable impact on the stage it's really meant for, but if I didn't care about the things I was saying, I wouldn't be talking about it in the first fucking place. The horribly ironic thing is I actually think the things I say will have some affect on the people who listen, but I never convince myself that the world will change if they do. I'd rather whine until the day I die than waste my time and energy on highfalutin, 'we can change anything with the power of love' dreck. At least I'd know if I did it long & loudly enough, there would never be a way for the people I was bitching at to ignore me.

The main difference between BG and SE (and places like them) is that BG doesn't even have an ethical obligation to care wtf you have to say. So, you're either here to convince us of something or to satisfy your own ego, it can't be neither. If it's the first, you're an idiot and a liar and if it's the second you're a hypocrite and a jackass. If it's both, well, I'd say you could add 2 and 2, but you'd probably spit out 5 just to spite me and then say 4 a post later.

Q.E.D.

[Tempyst]

Spoiler: show

The cancer analogy doesn't suggest that there's nothing you can do. It states what you do doesn't matter unless you have the power to back it up (e.g. the medical field's science or the cancer's ability to fight against it). Also, the patient can work in tandem with the medical organization by taking care of themselves and taking note of their symptoms. The two don't work against the cancer independently, it can only ever be a team effort; without the patient, there is nothing for the doctors to heal and without the doctors, the patient slowly dies.
You have no power, I have no power, and despite the many people on this board who want the same thing, we still can't get SE to do anything about the very obvious problems within the game (3 kings, etc.) The problem with your assertion that we're acting like powerless victims is we frequently complain about everything that's wrong. If we just accepted it, we wouldn't complain, would we? There are only 3 things we can do: report any abuse we see, attack those we believe to be committing them, or plead to SE to do more about the situation. There is nothing else that can be done and YOU haven't suggested anything that people aren't already doing and in larger numbers than you know or care to admit.

I'm tired of self-righteous twats who can't even pull it off. You are not MLK, you are not Gandhi, you are not Galileo, your are a douchebag bitching at someone in a video game forum. How DARE you compare yourselves to them while back-peddling with all your might. So somehow you can chastise us about how we operate, something you can't even know with any certainty, but since you can't do anything about our apparent apathy, which you've been saying all this time is part of the problem, you can just forget about it while still calling us weak, willfully ignorant, and lazy? You have absolutely no right to make yourself out as some sort of freedom fighter. At least have the balls to admit you're jumping all over the place to make yourself right and save face. The fact is if I could break your hands, I would, but then you'd get a Stephen Hawking chair and I'd have an assault charge hanging over my head. So I'd do a dime in the clink while you'd still be typing horseshit that distracts from the comparitively reasonable posts other people are making.

It becomes about your heartfelt crusade against ignorance, huh? What about mine? I have to deal with dumbasses without 2 atoms to rub together in their skull and I still have to repeat every completely logical and irrefutable point I cull from my vast intellect just so it can be ignored by some people and shit on by others. However, at least I never pretend that my efforts are meaningful in the grand scheme of things or meaningless to me and the points I'm making. Why? Because I'm saying this crap in a video game form and I tend to make large posts. The political crap I frequently segue into will have absolutely no measurable impact on the stage it's really meant for, but if I didn't care about the things I was saying, I wouldn't be talking about it in the first fucking place. The horribly ironic thing is I actually think the things I say will have some affect on the people who listen, but I never convince myself that the world will change if they do. I'd rather whine until the day I die than waste my time and energy on highfalutin, 'we can change anything with the power of love' dreck. At least I'd know if I did it long & loudly enough, there would never be a way for the people I was bitching at to ignore me.

The main difference between BG and SE (and places like them) is that BG doesn't even have an ethical obligation to care wtf you have to say. So, you're either here to convince us of something or to satisfy your own ego, it can't be neither. If it's the first, you're an idiot and a liar and if it's the second you're a hypocrite and a jackass. If it's both, well, I'd say you could add 2 and 2, but you'd probably spit out 5 just to spite me and then say 4 a post later.

Q.E.D.

Holy shit are you a pompous self important fuck

[LD]

I can't think of anything that describes how incredibly appropriate that shallow line is. Why don't you read it and then think of what you can do about it.

[Ksandra]

I already answered this, you are just repeating yourself on this fact. Ultimately you argument boils down to "it's ok to screw your friends over, as long as it's online!"

That's not what I'm saying at all, makes me thing you're not even reading my post and just nitpicking on phrases without grasping the whole concept.

[Ashira]

That's not what I'm saying at all, makes me thing you're not even reading my post and just nitpicking on phrases without grasping the whole concept.

I think that does tend to be Ringthree's specialty. I've gotten in long arguments with him over IM because he picks apart one sentence I say in a book. -.-

[ringthree]

I think that does tend to be Ringthree's specialty. I've gotten in long arguments with him over IM because he picks apart one sentence I say in a book. -.-

That is because in general if you say something you should have a reason for saying it, and if it is part of an argument and it is flawed then it exposes a flaw in the argument as a whole. If you believe it does not, then you retract the statement and assert that the rest of the argument stands on it's merits.

For Ksandra, I find it ironic that you pick out a part of my argument while ignoring the rest of it. I was just asserting the logical conclusion of the attitude about selling accounts, the missed point is the belief that what account sellers is doing is ok because it doesn't effect anyone else, when in fact it does. Human relationships are fragile in general and based on the interconnectedness of people no matter the form of communication. The brazen belief that these relationships have no inherent value only hurts the human condition.

Big words, I guess, but ultimately I am saying that treating other people like crap is bad, whether it is in person or on the internet. Selling an account to make money is selfish, selling an account because you have to make money is immature. There is no scenario in which selling an account makes you a good person. There may be varying levels of "badness" when selling an account, but you are always going to be in the negative on that ledger.

[Tubbers]

Here is my take on ringthree (It's clearly an exaggeration so don't get emo). If I say "me" I mean "ringthree":
----------------------------
All actions have an absolute morality, right or wrong.
The morality of any action is what I think it is, for everyone. For example If I think it's wrong to eat broccoli, then anyone who eats broccoli is immoral no matter the circumstances.
Whatever I think is an objective fact, even if it has no grounds whatsoever.
Friendship with me is a one shot deal, no apologies are ever accepted. If you at any point in your friendship do something immoral, you are no longer my friend and I hope you burn in hell.
----------------------------


Did I miss anything? Obviously this is exaggerated, but the fact that a friend of yours sold his account when he quit, and that was enough for you to (a) be mad (yell?) at him, (b) say he is no longer your friend. To me, getting that worked up about as silly an issue as this over someone who you considered a friend is leaps and bounds worse than buying or selling an account.

There is no scenario in which selling an account makes you a good person.

What about the hypothetical situation outlined earlier in the thread? What if someone sells his account to give the money to homeless starving people, or cancer research, etc. etc.. You make tall statements, and you yourself do not always stick by them.

ultimately I am saying that treating other people like crap is bad, whether it is in person or on the internet

I have straight up told a friend that sold his account that I thought he was a douche bag, and hoped that he would never come back.

I'd consider that treating him like crap. Immature or not, selling an account itself doesn't make you a douche bag.

There are a lot better things to put one's foot down in a friendship than what someone does after they stop playing a game.

So says the account seller. Sorry if I don't think your opinion amounts to much at all. :/

Ryko made a very valid statement, which you shot down for no other reason than he sold his account which makes you guilty of ad hominem, which coincidentally enough is illogical and another way of treating a person like crap.


All I'm saying is lighten up a bit, and think about what you're saying, and doing.

[Seraph]

I'd consider that treating him like crap. Immature or not, selling an account itself doesn't make you a douche bag.

I'd say its more likely they are a douchebag as opposed to not. It's really hard to draw that line in the sand saying that account selling/buying is "cheating", but it's definately breaking the rules as opposed to playing by them. Noone likes cheaters. Why do they cheat? They are usually douchebags.

I think the phrase that sums it up best for me is "Thanks for shitting up my game on your way out, I appreciate it."

Ryko made a very valid statement, which you shot down for no other reason than he sold his account which makes you guilty of ad hominem, which coincidentally enough is illogical and another way of treating a person like crap.


All I'm saying is lighten up a bit, and think about what you're saying, and doing.

Ryko has made his case that he doesn't give a shit what people think. That's all fine and good. He can do whatever he wants to move on. The point being made is that apathy isn't a source of absolution for doing something stupid. "Oh, I don't care." He obviously cares, he still hangs around, and likes to watch his drama threads. More power to him, I always liked his sharp humor.

Now, Ringthree obviously takes his points overboard, but his general idea isn't incorrect. He gets pissed that people 'cheat', and goes out of his way to call them out on it. Why shouldn't he? I have yet to hear a valid excuse. If anything, the Ad Hominem style attacks are usually thrown at Ringthree because of his confrontational posting style. I'm not saying he doesn't often bring it upon himself, but that isn't the point.

If you were broke, and someone offered to pay your bills for a month if you kicked a grown man in the balls, would you? What about a teenager? What about a child? What about a baby? Where do you draw the line, and can you even really draw it? The situation still doesn't justify the act. That is the point Ringthree is trying to make in his huge Xbox-like posts. The only difference is he adds his morality spin into it, which I usually don't care to, since it's just easier to call someone a dick instead of trying to bible uppercut them.

[Lampoon]

I'm not very good at economic side of corporate world, so maybe I can be enlightened on the matter. My question in relevance to account selling/not selling when someone quits the game.

Would it serve better purpose over all to have someone just plain quit and deactivate account, causing loss in profit for SE or have the account continue it's life and remain a paying subscribtion.

How would SE allocate its resourses with overwhelming loss of customer base?

Wouldn't deactivation of accounts put a halt on any and all upcoming updates and possible expansions if the customer-base growth slows down?

I perfectly understand that the quality of player has drastically came down from what it was (even tho some of the accounts bought have some decent players behind the wheel), but in over all the fact that people still have interest in the game after so many years, keeps those loyal fans looking forward to continuing service, however decent it is.