Yuki/Gekko/Kasha Attack bonus Testing

[Nameless]

About 200 WS was done on the mob during the merit section. And to recall, I didn't break 1k on any of my SS that did not DA, and there were a few 650 ish to go with some 950 ish ws (930+ can't remember). Did not use SE during the whole section since I was testing and told the rdm not to dia specifically.

And no Wraith, I obviously understand your Ratio = Attack/mob's defense, and that LC of 0.05 per lvl higher than you is what determines your cRatio. And it seems that those WS multiplier are applied to Ratio. However, you can't say that Ratio doesn't have cap when my testing clearly show that my cRatio wasn't 2.2 (seems to be the cap now from Yarko's testing, and it makes sense cuz the upper end pDIF is around 2.75, which we know is true).

If you take the stats that I have, capping Ratio for me is easy with spinning slash, and if Ratio doesn't have a cap, then I should have capped cRatio as well since my Ratio is at least 2.55, so my cRatio should end up 2.2 anyway. But under that assumption, my spinning slash should have averaged 920 ish instead of the parsed 810 ish.

So something is wrong, and Ratio having cap seems like the obvious reason. I guess the easiest to test is to go to bird and take out DA and just do some 100 WS and see if your max falls under the 2.75 pDIF cap. If Ratio does cap at 2.2, then your cratio would be 1.90 or 1.85 ish, thus making your max pDIF only 2.35 ish under this assumption. Anyone up for more testing?

[WraithLakshmi]

You wouldn't have to do WS to test this, just melee hits against a higher level mob would work. The cap was always applied after level correction, so I don't know why they would move it to before that. Melee DD would have noticed this happening because your damage on higher level mobs would have dropped drastically.

And this isn't just for pDIF, everything that has a level correction functions like this. The point is that on higher level monsters, you still can reach the cap, but because of the level correction you need a higher amount of attack/accuracy to reach those caps.

[Valyana]

Note that with the second 2h update (1:0.75) it seems SE added another term to melee damage, so that after the initial calculation of pDIF you multiply it by 1~1.05 to get the final pDIF. This makes it harder to measure the max crit damage on L0 mobs, as pDIF will vary a lot even if under the old system it would have been 3.0 most of the time.

[Nameless]

You wouldn't have to do WS to test this, just melee hits against a higher level mob would work. The cap was always applied after level correction, so I don't know why they would move it to before that. Melee DD would have noticed this happening because your damage on higher level mobs would have dropped drastically.

And this isn't just for pDIF, everything that has a level correction functions like this. The point is that on higher level monsters, you still can reach the cap, but because of the level correction you need a higher amount of attack/accuracy to reach those caps.

I wouldn't have capped Ratio or cRatio on bird that's the problem.

And like I said, you can apply my stats to WS formula, it should suggest a much higher average but it didn't. There is nothing that will cause my average to be lower other than that it is capped before lvl correlation.

[Ophannus]

Slightly offtopic: Weapon skills that say "Ignores defense. Amount ignored varies with TP"
Does this mean the ws gets an attack bonus, and with higher tp more attack is added? I can't think of how else it would ignore defense? If so then Wheeling Thrust really got jipped because first of the 'attack bonus' is really fuggin' weak since it does like 180-500 damage on Xarcabard NMs with 75+72 STR. Not to mention there are several WS that already ignore defense with their hidden attack bonuses AND have damage varies with TP like Y/G/K and Spinning Slash. Hell Gekko has dmg varies with TP, blinds and ignores defense.

[VZX]

Slightly offtopic: Weapon skills that say "Ignores defense. Amount ignored varies with TP"
Does this mean the ws gets an attack bonus, and with higher tp more attack is added? I can't think of how else it would ignore defense?

It can be interpreted one or the other way. It's the same thing
If it ignore 50% defense, then that means you got 100% attack bonus.

[Yarko]

Note that with the second 2h update (1:0.75) it seems SE added another term to melee damage, so that after the initial calculation of pDIF you multiply it by 1~1.05 to get the final pDIF. This makes it harder to measure the max crit damage on L0 mobs, as pDIF will vary a lot even if under the old system it would have been 3.0 most of the time.

Isn't this true only for critical hits? When I did that last test about capped pDIF on WW monsters I took a look at crits as well and... they were all in 0.95*3.0 < pDIF < 1.05*3.0 range (maybe just to have capped pDIF on critical hits fluctuate?). If this random parameter is applied to regular melee hits and WS' pDIF as well, everything complicates a lot...

[Nameless]

Yarko, you wanna try to see if Ratio has a cap? I don't know how to test this other than doing what I did, which suggested that there is a cap, and probably the same cap as cRatio. What other type of test would confirm this? I think this is probably the last thing to test in regard to this topic.

I personally have never seen my regular hit cap out against higher lvl mobs under high buff situation, so I doubt that Ratio doesn't have a cap.

[Nameless]

Ok, I will just make it easier. With my stats, str 139, int 68, base damage 85, attack 576 with gorget and 110 tp average when I ws against birds lvl 81.5, def 324.5, vit 67. Put all that info in for Spinning slash:

Weapon rank = 9, so fstr caps at 17.

fstr = ((139-67)+4)/4 = 19, so my fstr is 17

D = 85 + 17 = 102

WSC = (139 x 0.3 = 41) + (68 x 0.3 = 20) = 61. 61 x 0.83 = 50

fTP = 2.5 + (every additional 10 tp gives 0.05 ftp for spinning slash, 100% = 2.5, 200% = 3.0) + 0.1 from gorget = 2.65

Ratio = 576/324.5 = 1.77, with 1.5 multiplier, this becomes 2.66

cRatio = under what you guys said, that Ratio doesn't have a cap, so 2.66 - (0.05 x 6.5 lvl = 0.325) = 2.335, and that cRatio caps at 2.2 so my cRatio = 2.2

So we got (102 + 50) x 2.65 x 2.2 = 886.16. Therefore, my upper cap would be 1108 (never seen one that high without DA), lower cap would be 785, and average should be roughly 946 without counting any DA, which I have 7%.

However, if Ratio caps at 2.2 as I assumed, my cRatio would be 1.875. In this case, (102 + 50) x 2.65 x 1.875 = 755.25. So my upper cap should be 944 (seems very accurate as I said I did not break 1k without DA), and lower cap should be 621 (seem a bit low but I definitely done a few that were 650). So my average should be 782.5. Looks a bit on the low end, but this is without counting 7% DA, so my parsed 810 is reasonable under this assumption.

But either way, you see that I average no where near 946 even including those DA proc. And numbers fall a bit more reasonable when assuming that Ratio has a cap. Go figure... I am dying to know what's behind this.

Edit: From the number posted on page 1, it seems like pDIF lower cap is (0.8 ) of the upper cap. So I am going to fix the number a bit.

Edit 2: Fixed

[Yarko]

Yarko, you wanna try to see if Ratio has a cap? I don't know how to test this other than doing what I did, which suggested that there is a cap, and probably the same cap as cRatio. What other type of test would confirm this? I think this is probably the last thing to test in regard to this topic.

I personally have never seen my regular hit cap out against higher lvl mobs under high buff situation, so I doubt that Ratio doesn't have a cap.

Well easiest and fastest way I can think of is someone providing a parser of a Kirin Zerg as SAM (or eyeballed the dmg). When zerging him SAMs usually have at least 1 SV minuet and often Angon is used, so...if Ratio*Multiplier caps at 2.2, and LC is applied afterwards, DMG on Gekko wouldn't exceed:
cRatio = 2.2-0,85 = 1,35
pDIF(max) ~ 1,35 * 1.3 = 1,755

Gekko max DMG at 200-300 TP = (75+~4+~84)*2.6*1.755 = 743 without overwhelm, 884 with;

at 100TP = (75+~4+~84)*1.975*1.755 = 564 without overwhelm, 671 with

If LC is applied before the cap, as we think and as studiogobli taught us, DMG could go as high as

Gekko max DMG at 200-300 TP = (75+~4+~84)*2.6*2.7 = 1144 without overwhelm, 1361 with

at 100 TP = (75+~4+~84)*1.975*2.7 = 870 without overwhelm, 1035 with

so~ anyone who has done Kirin zerg as SAM with SV minuets and possibly angon, how does gekko dmg look like (without DA procs)?

Since im fairly sure it's only cRatio to have a cap, I don't know why your spinning slash results were that low. Did you really have that much attack on all your WSs? Sometimes Bards are too busy pulling to keep Minuet on DDs all the time, that could be a reason why your average is lower than expected.

As for what's left to test.. I'd like to be sure those multipliers are applied to Ratio before LC rather than afterwards, but this is kinda hard to test without a controlled test on high level monsters =/

[Nameless]

Yea, pretty sure my attack is constantly that high. I did some more calculation and it shows that even if I only get attack song half the time, under the no cap for Ratio assumption, I would still average around 880 without DA. And with the assumption that Ratio does cap at 2.2, the result is the same, 780 ish since my Ratio without brd song would have been 2.3 anyway, so if it is capped then I would have the same cRatio as with brd song.

I am pretty sure that it is capped tho, cuz I have never really break 1k SS without DA at bird camp, like never.

[Nameless]

PLD/SAM+GS - Killing Ifrit

In the middle of page 7, there is a parse result from Beckwin. I know that is pld/sam, but if you look at his gear, other than no attack JT, which is 48 attack, and take out some of the attack equips that drk can use such as black cuisses, his WS gear is pretty similar to mine, and he has ares body which I used heca body so edge to him on that. In addition, he used food for the full merit and hasso, so if anything, that covers up all the str and attack short coming compare to a drk. In the end, he averaged around 780, and said would have 820 if not cuz of wivre, which matches with my parsed result almost completely.

So I am sure it is not just my average being low, it just seem that Ratio has a cap as being the only reason this could happen.

[Yarko]

Pretty sure Ratio or the value Ratio*Multiplier don't have caps. It wouldn't make sense that those values have one, and I found a parser of me on DRK/SAM on mamools about 1 month ago, with kabob and minuet I had 2-3 not-DA Spinning Slash do 970-980, and lowest were 650ish (with no minuet, and maybe mob with ProtectIV too). Party didn't last long, so only did 20 or so WSs. Well, point is, if Ratio was really capped and LC applied afterwards, those 970-980 SS wouldn't be possible.
When I actually manage to get a merit PT on DRK i'll do a controlled test on Spinning Slash.

About the parser you provided: This kinda agrees with our data. His Average is 784 and he said he fought quite a bit of Wivres at the start, and he would expect his average to be closer to 800-820. Now a Paladin with 1 minuet and meat using a Great Sword has 500 attack at best (correct me if i'm wrong), remember they dont have that huge attack bonus trait DRKs have.
Well, this is not enough to be at cap, because:

cRatio = (ATK/DEF * Mult) - LC = (500/325 * 1.5) - 0.325 = ~1,98

Assuming he has 130 STR (and uhm 70 int?) his WS average would be:

(85+ floor((130-67+4)/4)+floor((130+70)*0.3*0.83)) * 2.65 * 2 = 795

which agrees.

Go parse again I guess ;p

[Nameless]

Let's see, 35 skill difference is 35 attack. 137 str on his ws set which is same as mine. Attack trait as I mentioned before is 48. Difference in attack in gear is 18 between my set and his set (mine higher). So in the end, it is 35+48+18 attack = 101 attack. 60 attack from meat kabob, so the difference is 41. So he in fact has around 535 attack, which is 2.46 Ratio, and -0.325 = 2.144

59 INT from his set, and 137 str, 142 counting food, so WSC should be 48. In addition, with algol he should have a 7 hit build, meaning his average TP on spinning slash is around 115, making his ftp, including gorget, to be around 2.675. Same D value as mine, so 102. Thus making his average 858.68, and adjust for pDIF, he should have averaged 912.5, and this is not including algol's triple attack and 7% DA.

Under the assumption that Ratio is capped, he would have the same cRatio as me. So 150 x 2.675 x 1.875 = 752. Adjust for pDIF you got 778. Factor in DA and TA you got around 800 ish, which is again a bit lower than his 810-820.

I would lean toward that there is a cap. You can go see Xrave's parse result on page 8 for another example. He has far less attack than beckwin and it shows.

Where did you read that Ratio doesn't have a cap?

Edit: actually Xrave's has about same str but didn't eat food. So in reality it is probably around 60 attack difference. Under the no cap assumption, the average would be alot more difference with 60 attack different, but you see the average was only about 20-30 difference.

[Nameless]

I actually think the number would fit better assuming Ratio and cRatio both cap at 2.3 and have 1.2 max pdif and -0.8 for min pdif. That will fit into my parse, beckwin's parse, and xrave's parse nicely.

[Yarko]

I got to fight SW Serket twice as SAM/NIN lately, and Hydra once; Gekkos seemed to be lower than expected. Reason seems to be that the multiplier is actually added after the level correction.

SAM/NIN vs SW Serket LV83:
~STR105 (131 WS) had etudes
~Attack 483 (495 WS)

lowest hit dmg: 11
highest hit dmg: 65

Base Damage = ~80
pDIF(min) = 11/80 = 0,137
pDIF(max) = 65/80 = 0,812
average = 0,475

Estimated Serket DEF = Attack / (Average pDIF + Correction) = 483 / (0,475 + 0,4) = ~550

lowest Gekko: 299
highest Gekko: 561
average: 416

Estimated average Gekko if Multiplier is applied to Ratio:
(75 + 11 + floor(131*0.83*0.75)) * 2 * (495/550*2 - 0.4)*1.15 = 537

Estimated average Gekko if Multiplier is applied to cRatio:
(75 + 11 + floor(131*0.83*0.75)) * 2 * ((495/550 - 0.4)*2)*1.15 = 384

Most of those gekkos were actually at 150ish TP so a fTP of 2 is an innacurate estimation, but anyway, it looks like the multiplier is applied to cRatio.
If this is the case as it seems, I need to re-do all the Kaiten vs Gekko comparison and the "when attack is enough for gekko" formulas :/.

[Nameless]

Try to apply you number with the assumption that ratio has a cap, see how it fits.

[Enedin]

Interesting stuff, keep posting!

[WraithLakshmi]

Try to apply you number with the assumption that ratio has a cap, see how it fits.

It wouldn't matter in this instance, because even if ratio capped at 2 or 2.2, he wasn't getting that high.

[shaddix]

So is it possible then, that in high attack situations, where your cratio is capped normally, that gekko could be inferior to rana since gekko will not improve from the increased attack, but rana will?