What's Better?

[isladar]

Rocl:To avoid the unecessary creation of thousands of simple gear comparison threads, we'll attempt to make this your generic gear question thread. If it doesn't work, I blame Suiram. If it does work, all credit goes to me. So let us begin with the OP's question:


Blau Dolch or Stylet??

Original Thread: http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/46517-whats-better.html

The Second Thread

The Thread Formally Known As The Third

WAS IST BETTERSTEIN IV

Jem and the Holograms vs The Misfits V

pDIF to Your Mother VI

[Khajit]

I nominate "/thf in parties is the way to go." Although that does seem like a nice random fail title too.

[Juravial]

Now now Khajit, lets not be like that. I believe that neither myself nor taruking was trying to say that "thf is the only way to go in parties" and you know that

*stares over his glasses at you with a wry look*

Just as you don't bring a gun to a knife fight, you also wouldn't bring /thf to a merit-style party (4 DDs, a healer, a buffer, or some combination of that basic premise) because it would make no sense (nobody to trick onto safely).

Please at least consider that, if you were leveling drk, and if you were invited to a level 60 synch'd party (and you were around level ~63 drk, don't take the high road here and say you'd turn down the party, level 63 drk doesn't turn down parties lol) and they asked you to trick your ws onto the pld....wouldn't you?

Please also bear in mind that a "merit" style party in this instance isn't possible...either not enough heavy DDs, or no buffers available, etc., or your friend (or wife) is leveling pld and that's the job he/she wants to come as. Or, stepping it up a notch for 2 instances, if the bird party was level 66 and was an imp party instead.

I await to hear your logical argument, please do not respond with "lol/thf" because that just isn't all too clear to me unfortunately. Thanks!

[Argettio]

L'ound 2
Fight!

[Cream Soda]

And how much str are you giving up ? The benefit from capping ddex will be less than 10% increase in damage (for instance if you go from 12% to 24% crit and if one crit is worth 1.9 normal).

Hmm, never really had a pummel build before this since I hardly ever played pup except for nuking.

Waghs/empty/ani+1/oils
Anwig (25 ws acc 5 attack 4 str)/love torque/brutal/delta
Usu/Enkidu/Rajas/Thunder
Pantin/Virtuoso/Usu/Hume rse2

[Khajit]

Now now Khajit, lets not be like that. I believe that neither myself nor taruking was trying to say that "thf is the only way to go in parties" and you know that

*stares over his glasses at you with a wry look*

Just as you don't bring a gun to a knife fight, you also wouldn't bring /thf to a merit-style party (4 DDs, a healer, a buffer, or some combination of that basic premise) because it would make no sense (nobody to trick onto safely).

Please at least consider that, if you were leveling drk, and if you were invited to a level 60 synch'd party (and you were around level ~63 drk, don't take the high road here and say you'd turn down the party, level 63 drk doesn't turn down parties lol) and they asked you to trick your ws onto the pld....wouldn't you?

Please also bear in mind that a "merit" style party in this instance isn't possible...either not enough heavy DDs, or no buffers available, etc., or your friend (or wife) is leveling pld and that's the job he/she wants to come as. Or, stepping it up a notch for 2 instances, if the bird party was level 66 and was an imp party instead.

I await to hear your logical argument, please do not respond with "lol/thf" because that just isn't all too clear to me unfortunately. Thanks!

Been there leveled that. Sub nin if the hate is that big a problem to you. And yes my drk did turn down shitty parties. Dealing with the irritation of fighting with people in full af isnt worth the irritation to me and especially not when im the only one eating food. I can campaign,farm or make my own pt instead since drk isnt the first priority for most to invite. Really you need to be making your own pt unless you want the samurai legions to be in parties while you're waiting. Hearing the words trick attack the pld if im not on thf is a surefire way to let me know i dont want to be in the pt and that everyone there still wears courage rings. Then take sata prep time. that's what? 5~10 seconds depending on the pt that is spent lining up instead of wsing? All that for a ws that wont outdamage or is equal to what a halfassed thf could have done with TA dancing edge without the wait time that was gimping your entire pt.

1. /nin alone and keeping shadows up will outperform /thf. Quite frankly any DD who at least gave half a shit about gear or skilling up is going to be ripping hate off of a pld in the first place.
2. the DD tanking as /nin is going to take less damage than the pld would unless the pld is /nin too.(they rarely are). Not only that but at that point it wouldnt MATTER if the pld has hate or not. So long as there is something in the way of taking damage it wont matter(eg shadows)
3. The pld is going to have to rest eventually. In a shitty /thf pt the DD couldn't just take on mobs while the pld rests so you're losing even more exp every moment you're waiting on lolmp instead of fighting.
4 /sam works 70+ if you're truly afraid of dying when you take hate.( i assume worst case for most parties so I didn't /sam 100% of the time pre 70 so that i have seigan incase of incompetent mages)
5. heavy DD scmeavy DD. the important part is that they aren't gimp since the DD with the best gear (assuming they eat their fod)is what will win the parse in the party usually. The heavy DD just have a higher threshold for idiocy. You dont even need heavy DD to get high exp/h compared to the gimpshit parties. you will however of course get the highest exp with the samurai legions blah blah.
7. let's see the benefits of other sj here... /thf you get to look like a gimpshit and people wonder if you're a player coming back after6+ years. /sam x hit AND 10% haste AND meditate plus defensive capabilities 70+. /war Zerk, DA, not recommended as you're probably going to tank without and defensive capabilities with this. /nin Utsu, accounts for alot if the other DD are seriously so gimp/lazy that they cant take hate from you but should be abandoned for /sam most of the time if you think you can get away with it without dying (you say you static with a pld so that's basically /sam all the time). /drg 5% haste from earring so already it beats out /thf despite /drg being inferior to /sam.
How many people have to spell it out that /thf is shit? There's probably more crap i could say but I honestly think i spent too much time typing up a response detailing information that should be obvious to anyone who even knows what the other jobs have for when you sub them. People already pointed out reasons why /thf is shit to you which alone are enough reasons to not use it so why exactly do you need me to categorically explain this shit to you?

[Raen Ryong]

Pretty sure it's something more like:
Damage = (Base Damage + fSTR + Total DEX+ Total AGI)*fTP*(Crit pDIF)

If fTP didn't transfer to SA/TA WSs, the Mercy Stroke would be significantly less amazing.

Just getting back to this, the guy was actually correct;

SA/TA WS works as follows:

Damage = [(D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP + DEX + AGI] * Pdif

In words,

DEX/AGI bonus from SA/TA does not benefit from fTP on WS, only the critical pdif. This means that WSs with high fTPs gain comparatively less from adding DEX/AGI (in terms of SA/TA damage boost, not WSC) than those with low fTPs - this is why Shark Bite does not gain as much from it as Mandalic Stab for instance.

Mercy Stroke is still very strong because of the STR WSC and high fTP, but this is the reason why STR >> DEX for it.

[Juravial]

Then take sata prep time. that's what? 5~10 seconds depending on the pt that is spent lining up instead of wsing? All that for a ws that wont outdamage or is equal to what a halfassed thf could have done with TA dancing edge without the wait time that was gimping your entire pt.

Actually, I was sorta just TA'ing my ws, not SATA, so I could pretty much do that right after wifey vokes, no real waiting for other people lining up necessary. My TAWS usually does about ~800-900 damage, so not terrible, really, and about ~1200 with souleater up.

1. /nin alone and keeping shadows up will outperform /thf. Quite frankly any DD who at least gave half a shit about gear or skilling up is going to be ripping hate off of a pld in the first place.

Quite frankly, I was at first subbing ninja, and doing exactly that, ripping hate off the tank with normal blows (she has decent gear, merits, emnity+, etc, still rips hate). And my /nin ws damage is comparable (equal) to my /thf damage, both in melee and ws, so why would I take a sub that allows me only ichi vs. one that allows me to place hate on the tank?

2. the DD tanking as /nin is going to take less damage than the pld would unless the pld is /nin too.(they rarely are). Not only that but at that point it wouldnt MATTER if the pld has hate or not. So long as there is something in the way of taking damage it wont matter(eg shadows)

I've tried it this way, and the short anwser is that without ni to back me up, birds eat me alive. They strip my shadows, eat my food (not the real point, but still blech), pecking flurry me, and I waste mp and stress out the healer(s). Then rdm complains that people don't get haste because he has to rest b/c he tossed a few cure 4s down my gullet that ate up the mp he was gonna use for that. Please be aware, this is without using any sort of ability like souleater, or last resort, or anything.

3. The pld is going to have to rest eventually. In a shitty /thf pt the DD couldn't just take on mobs while the pld rests so you're losing even more exp every moment you're waiting on lolmp instead of fighting.

Wife doesn't have to rest, usually has 3/tick rdm refresh, 1 per tick from her neck, 1 per tick from her auto-refresh, and 1 per tick from sanction.

4 /sam works 70+ if you're truly afraid of dying when you take hate.( i assume worst case for most parties so I didn't /sam 100% of the time pre 70 so that i have seigan incase of incompetent mages)

I will definately do this whenever I'm in a merit-style party. Thank you for this insight.

7. let's see the benefits of other sj here... /thf you get to look like a gimpshit and people wonder if you're a player coming back after6+ years. /sam x hit AND 10% haste AND meditate plus defensive capabilities 70+. /war Zerk, DA, not recommended as you're probably going to tank without and defensive capabilities with this. /nin Utsu, accounts for alot if the other DD are seriously so gimp/lazy that they cant take hate from you but should be abandoned for /sam most of the time if you think you can get away with it without dying (you say you static with a pld so that's basically /sam all the time). /drg 5% haste from earring so already it beats out /thf despite /drg being inferior to /sam.

I don't think going /sam or /drg is gonna be any mroe survivable than going /war to any party under level 70. I would just eat dirt....these suggestions are completely acceptable after 70, but what about before then? Until level 73 (go merit party go), I tend to get into either pre-70 imp parties or ~60-61 colibri parties, where none of these subjobs give me any buffer against taking hate and summarily being even more of a mp sponge than you claim pld is.

How many people have to spell it out that /thf is shit? There's probably more crap i could say but I honestly think i spent too much time typing up a response detailing information that should be obvious to anyone who even knows what the other jobs have for when you sub them. People already pointed out reasons why /thf is shit to you which alone are enough reasons to not use it so why exactly do you need me to categorically explain this shit to you?

This seems almost defensive, but I will pick the valid point from it and argue from there. Yes, people have said "/thf is shit" but...usually that is all they say. Please, categorically explain how any other subjob helps me in a normal party setup on imps or colibri from levels 60-69.9.

I appreciate the detailed response, but fail to see how any other sub will increase my exp/hour in either of those two ranks of parties mentioned. Also, it is weird, but the legions of samurai levels 60-70 are unfortunately not really present on carby. There are a lot of level 75 sams seeking for merits, but most of those comment merit only, so that isn't an easy sell.

edit: I like your avatar.

[Juravial]

Mercy Stroke is still very strong because of the STR WSC and high fTP, but this is the reason why STR >> DEX for it.

I'm actually curious, because I can't find anything anywhere that says otherwise, but can WSC cap like the fSTR in weapon damage? Is there any time where you would want to stop focusing on str. and instead focus on the other attributes of a weaponskill?

Like lets say you were using swift blade, whose fstr caps out with a damage 46 sword at 13 (so, 39 str. over the mob's vit) and you indeed reached that with gear, with ws would you still pack on the str gear, or would you instead macro in some mind gear?

[Nightfyre]

WSC doesn't cap. You'd still use STR unless you could get significantly more MND in that slot due to STR also granting attack.

[Juravial]

Thanks nightfyre!

[Thorny]

having empty/shit earring/back slots when you could use Spike earrings or jag mantle for some levels whilst EXPing is the exact kind of thing you'd call someone gimp for in media.

Yes, I'd totally call someone gimp for missing 8 attack with all other slots correct *eyeroll*. I don't believe I've ever even criticized someone pre-75 there, considering I do the same thing with every job I level(either AB and skip gear entirely, or skip the smaller pieces to minimize space wasted and time having to resell useless crap on AH).

[Byrthnoth]

D: that's a pretty lame way for SE to handle THF SATAWS mechanics.

[Cream Soda]

Yes, I'd totally call someone gimp for missing 8 attack with all other slots correct *eyeroll*. I don't believe I've ever even criticized someone pre-75 there, considering I do the same thing with every job I level(either AB and skip gear entirely, or skip the smaller pieces to minimize space wasted and time having to resell useless crap on AH).

GET LIKE ME!, just sayin~

[pchan]

Hmm, never really had a pummel build before this since I hardly ever played pup except for nuking.

Waghs/empty/ani+1/oils
Anwig (25 ws acc 5 attack 4 str)/love torque/brutal/delta
Usu/Enkidu/Rajas/Thunder
Pantin/Virtuoso/Usu/Hume rse2

Well I just checked, and considering sole sushi or squid sushi (cheaper) both gives dex 6, and the fact that pup will have to eat sushi at birds to maximize haste (nyzlulz body/tuban/AF2 gloves..), dDEX cap is fairly easy without almost any sacrifice :

without neck/hands/ear2/ring1/belt/feet my DEX= 68+27+6=101 as elvaan PUP/NIN. So enkidu mittens (str4,dex4), dex ring (5), forest sash (4 dex), sentata (4 dex 3 str) will cap you. You can keep gorget on this way and still cap fstr(yay for Elvaan). Not bad. But lolbirds.

[thunderlips]

For COR using Detonator, Fowler's Mantle +1 or Amemet Mantle +1?

[Vedder]

What's better for a non-Mandau THF in the following situations, Warwolf Belt or Cuchulain's Belt?

- Sneak Attack
- Sneak Attack + Dancing Edge
- Trick Attack + Dancing Edge

Warwolf - DEF:6 STR+5 DEX+5 VIT+5 Enmity+3
Cuch - DEF:6 HP+15 DEX+6 Attack+10

[Raen Ryong]

Cuch pretty much always.

[noodles355]

Cuch for Solo SA I'm 99% certain.

For the others I'm not so sure. I would think possibly Cuch but I don't know

[Taruking]

I nominate "/thf in parties is the way to go." Although that does seem like a nice random fail title too.

This just showed how ignorant most players are. Things work in a lv75 merit party does not always apply to low level exp party with PLD tank. Lesson #1 - don't judge a subjob before taking into consideration the party setup, levels and the mobs exp party is fighting.

The SJ has its uses in pickup party, you are not going to get BRD/COR/PL healer all the time. You only have access to limited gear selection at those leves. It's unlikely for a level 60 SAM/WAR without polearm merit/BRD songs/food to land all 5 hits of pentathrust on IT colibri consistently, i.e. spamming WS does not necessarily give you better result.

SAM/THF on the other hand get to eat pizza (attack bonus cap at 50 and 10% accuracy), will have better DOT and WS damage plus they can afford to wait for TA cooldown. TA WS gives your PLD tank free hate so that they can focus on DDing and save them MP. Even more important if your party is using a NIN tank. Better hate control let other DDs in your party deal more damage without pulling hate (e.g. keep Hasso up longer, use WS earlier etc). There is zero risk of getting one-shotted by PF too.

I have taken PLD, NIN, MNK and SAM to lv75. I have tested all kind of setup in pickup party. When it comes to exp/hr the difference between /WAR or /THF is negligible. On the other hand, hate control and MP usage is much better with /THF and makes tank's and healer's job less stressful. Of couse this is assuming that ppl actually do join pickup party and not everyone in this game only exp in DDx4, BRD + RDM + PL healers LS party.