Recipe Ranks & Equipment Scaling

[tymora]

Don't think anything has been posted on this topic yet so here it is.
Before I start, I must emphasize that things are far from complete.

Crafting:
This should be more or less the finalized formula for calculating recipe rank from physical exp.

EXPGAINED = Ceiling( BASEEXP * (0.001 * QUALITYGAINED + 1) )
where EXPGAINED = what you see on screen
QUALITYGAINED = Self-explanatory
Ceiling = Round up to nearest whole number

BASEEXP can be referred from the table below. Note the oddity at -13 to -11 and the change to a drop of 10 exp per level at -16.

Base EXP Table (Feb 2 2011):

-21	-20	-19	-18	-17	-16	-15	-14	-13	-12	-11		
???	???	???	???	???	40?	???	80	???	150	200	

-10	-9	-8	-7	-6	-5	-4	-3	-2	-1
250	350	450	550	650	750	800	850	900	950	

0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
1000	1200	1400	1600	1800	2000	2200	2400	2600	2800	3000

Base EXP Table (Pre-Feb 2 Patch - For reference only)

-21	-20	-19	-18	-17	-16	-15	-14	-13	-12	-11		
0	10	20	30	40	50	100	150	200	300	400	

-10	-9	-8	-7	-6	-5	-4	-3	-2	-1
500	550	600	650	700	750	800	850	900	950	

0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
1000	1050	1100	1150	1200	1250	1300	1350	1400	1450	1500

In short, you no longer get exp 21 ranks above recipe, can't try recipe over 10 ranks and can calculate the recipe rank by just looking at a single value of experience gained.
The impact of quality is small if you only spam Standard, so it is possible to do a quick estimate by down-rounding to nearest 50 for most levels.

For Leves, multiply the BASEEXP by 1.5. so there are no issues with using Leves to calculate recipe rank either.

SKILL:
AVGSP = BASEEXP / 4
Range of SP = 0.75 AVGSP < SP < 1.25 AVGSP
(Covers most of the hits, may go up to 0.5).

=> No correlation with durability, quality or actions taken.

Exact formula unknown but average SP varies linearly with level. Gradient is about 12.75 SP per level.
It almost feels like it is a linear BASESP + random(1 to BASESP/2).

I don't see any meaningful correlation between SP, durability, quality or even actions taken.


#############################
# Equipment Stat Scaling: #
#############################
- There is a sharp drop at 1 level under optimal equipment rank before it starts to follow a linear scaling trend.
- Between 2 consecutive equips of the same type, the time you can upgrade is when you hit the rank in the middle and rounded up of the 2 optimal ranks.
E.g. Rank 10 if deciding between Rank 7 and Rank 12 crafting tool.
- The stat loss is capped at the lower rank equip's stats.

=> As a result of this, every type of equip will differ in the exact formula to calculate equipment scaling.
=> As a result of this, different stats will scale differently depending on the exact difference between stat values on different equips.

*Note that the numbers I give here fit my limited data, it may(and should) be slightly off with a larger data set.
- Note that the modifier is 1 at x = 0, so it means that there is a sharp drop at 1 level under optimal equipment rank before it starts to follow a linear scaling trend.
- Yes, they all follow different linear lines...pretty certain of this.
- Feel proud wearing gear 10 levels above your level? Might want to reconsider practicality against coolness, otherwise you will be a pimp gimp.
- I believe some other forum placed the penalty to non-optimal job at 40% reduction. Do you die a lot being a robed pugilist or a chain mail conjurer?

***These formulas work for only specific items***
Tool:
Modifier for all stats = 0.0335x + 0.80.0396x + 0.85 where x = -1, -2, -3... (level from optimal)
0.0335 is about 1/30 so it could be that as well.

Armor:
Def/MDef Modifier = 0.04x + 0.84 (a.k.a 16.4% drop 1st level and 4% drop thereafter)
0.04 = 1/25
Eva Modifier = 0.02x + 0.94 (a.k.a 6.2% drop 1st level and 2% drop thereafter)
0.02 = 1/50
Other Stat Modifier (e.g. Control, Gathering) = 0.04x + 0.75 (a.k.a 25.4% drop 1st level and 4% drop thereafter)
0.04 = 1/25

- What do you do with the modifiers?
ACTUALSTAT = Ceiling(MODIFIER*STAT)

----------------------------------------------------
Feel free to verify these formulas and refine them more - And update the recipes on YG and Zam...etc with them
Cheers.

Edit: Updated recipe rank calculation with a BASEEXP table.
Edit: Feb 2 Formula update and added Crafting AVGSP formula.

[bruiser]

- Exact recipe rank can be determined from EXP gained and EXP only.

Just wanted to point you here, in case you haven't seen it.

TL;DR - Take the first rank at which you don't get the "you decide to wait until you're more skilled" error message. Add 10 to that number. That's the exact recipe rank.

[tymora]

Thanks, but being able to calculate recipe rank from exp gained will give you a range of -17 to +12 (from what I have at the moment) to determine the rank, instead of being able to know from 10 levels under. I don't have data above +12 so that's where I am ending it atm.

I suppose we should merge the threads.

[bruiser]

Thanks, but being able to calculate recipe rank from exp gained will give you a range of -17 to +12 (from what I have at the moment) to determine the rank, instead of being able to know from 10 levels under.

And it seems the "10 under" part changes with better equipment.

Can you give a specific example to back up your claim that the 10 under rule changes with better equipment? Something along the lines of:

1) At rank X I was not able to perform synth Z.  I tried but got the error message "You decide to wait until you are more skilled before attempting that."
2) I equipped Y, and was able to perform synth Z without gaining any additional ranks.  

X = ???
Y = ???
Z = ???

I guess here's a more fundamental question - What is your definition of "exact recipe rank"?

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not attacking or shooting down any of your other formulas, they look interesting. But as far as I can tell, the 10 ranks under rule is universal, and any theory you come up with needs to agree with it or else I would consider it problematic. Obviously everything is still new and there's many things we don't know, but unless I see a specific example that I can reproduce on my own character or have other people confirm that it's reproducable where the 10 ranks under rule varies with equipment, then I'm somewhat skeptical.

[bruiser]

Also, "exact recipe rank" is a player-defined concept. What does it mean? It's not something SE tells us, so it's up to us to define it in the first place. Here's some possible definitions:

- The level at which synths become "pretty easy" (for some vague definition of pretty easy)
- The first level at which the synth is attemptable without an error message, plus 10
- The level where you average approximately 1000 experience points on a successful attempt (based on my own observation, this seems like a good heuristic).
- <insert other possible definitions here>


Definition #2 is the only one that appears to be based off of an easily quantifiable invariant (pending, of course, any evidence to refute its invariance), and so in my opinion is the best definition. But obviously this definition is something we players are inventing, so there's plenty of things i haven't even thought of that might be a better definition.

Also, I like your research on the formulas, I'm going to think about them some more tomorrow. I just want to make sure a solid basis is established and we're not defining things based on gut feelings or instincts, but on quantifiable facts.

[tymora]

Also, "exact recipe rank" is a player-defined concept. What does it mean? It's not something SE tells us, so it's up to us to define it in the first place. Here's some possible definitions:

- The level at which synths become "pretty easy" (for some vague definition of pretty easy)
- The first level at which the synth is attemptable without an error message, plus 10
- The level where you average approximately 1000 experience points on a successful attempt (based on my own observation, this seems like a good heuristic).
- <insert other possible definitions here>


Definition #2 is the only one that appears to be based off of an easily quantifiable invariant (pending, of course, any evidence to refute its invariance), and so in my opinion is the best definition. But obviously this definition is something we players are inventing, so there's plenty of things i haven't even thought of that might be a better definition.

Also, I like your research on the formulas, I'm going to think about them some more tomorrow. I just want to make sure a solid basis is established and we're not defining things based on gut feelings or instincts, but on quantifiable facts.

I repeated synthing the same recipe over several levels and over all crafts minus cooking.
The BASEEXP gained vary by 50 per level (other than at -17) and there is no mismatch in the calculated numbers at all. (Over at least a hundred set of values) What I get on paper(or rather Excel) agrees with what I see on-screen. Hence, EXP gained is no longer a just a heuristic.

I can't claim your D=10 is wrong. In my data, I was however able to synth Iron Chain Sheet successfully (3 out of 6) in a lvl 20 leve. It gave me a BASEEXP of 1400 at lvl 16, which places it at 27. This is 11 levels above my level.
- There is a good chance Leve recipes are easier to make.
- I upgraded my equips to the Cotton set, which boosted crafting stats all around.
- I had initially thought there are some special BASEEXP jumps, but continued synthing gave me other exp values that continue to suggest a 50 exp/level change at least until +12 levels.

The lowest recipes I found based on this formula is Hempen Yarn and Fent. I grounded them at level 1, which set a value of 850 to be the BASEEXP for an equal rank recipe. My definition of recipe rank is thus a function of the exp I gain at a certain level.

[bruiser]

I repeated synthing the same recipe over several levels and over all crafts minus cooking.
The BASEEXP gained vary by 50 per level (other than at -17) and there is no mismatch in the calculated numbers at all. (Over at least a hundred set of values) What I get on paper(or rather Excel) agrees with what I see on-screen.

I can't claim your D=10 is wrong. In my data, I was however able to synth Iron Chain Sheet successfully (3 out of 6) in a lvl 20 leve. It gave me a BASEEXP of 1400 at lvl 16, which places it at 27. This is 11 levels above my level.
- There is a good chance Leve recipes are easier to make.
- I upgraded my equips to the Cotton set, which boosted crafting stats all around.

Actually, in my experience, leve synths have their exp / skill rewards artificially boosted. It seems like compensation for the fact that there is no Guardian's Favor to accept on a crafting leve, like there is on a regional leve. If you did exact same synth outside of that leve, even at the same rank, you would get much less exp / skill.

If that is the reason for the discrepancy, then it would be intresting to use your formulas to calculate the exact method by which leve skill gain is computed. For example, "leve exp / skill gain is calculated as if the item were X ranks higher than it really is"

Edit: Nvm, you already have a different formula for leve synths.

Edit2: Do you have a spreadsheet or something you could upload to google spreadsheets with the raw data?

[qpoiuwer]

II can't claim your D=10 is wrong. In my data, I was however able to synth Iron Chain Sheet successfully (3 out of 6) in a lvl 20 leve. It gave me a BASEEXP of 1400 at lvl 16, which places it at 27. This is 11 levels above my level.
- There is a good chance Leve recipes are easier to make.
- I upgraded my equips to the Cotton set, which boosted crafting stats all around.
- I had initially thought there are some special BASEEXP jumps, but continued synthing gave me other exp values that continue to suggest a 50 exp/level change at least until +12 levels.

The max synthesis level of a level 20 leve is 25. You also can't synth anything 10 levels above you. Iron Chain actually looks like it's around level 23 +/- 1 according to Lodestone, which we can assume is correct.

[tymora]

The max synthesis level of a level 20 leve is 25. You also can't synth anything 10 levels above you. Iron Chain actually looks like it's around level 23 +/- 1 according to Lodestone, which we can assume is correct.

And your assumption is based on?

[tymora]

Actually, in my experience, leve synths have their exp / skill rewards artificially boosted. It seems like compensation for the fact that there is no Guardian's Favor to accept on a crafting leve, like there is on a regional leve. If you did exact same synth outside of that leve, even at the same rank, you would get much less exp / skill.

If that is the reason for the discrepancy, then it would be intresting to use your formulas to calculate the exact method by which leve skill gain is computed. For example, "leve exp / skill gain is calculated as if the item were X ranks higher than it really is"

Edit: Nvm, you already have a different formula for leve synths.

Edit2: Do you have a spreadsheet or something you could upload to google spreadsheets with the raw data?

A partial list of recipe levels calculated from exp gained:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...CM3J6OAC#gid=0

It is possible that there might be other factors that affect exp gained that also shifts the exp gained by 50.
- Sub-craft levels might shift it, but Iron Sewing Needle seems unlikely to have a sub-craft.
- Adv. Support doesn't affect exp gained.
- Nor does using different equipment.
- Nor does intentionally not using the correct facilities.
- Nor does not having the proper training.
- Nor does the moon phase. Because I am getting consistent values from the same recipes whenever I craft.

Collected from crafting Mole Brown Hempen Cloth:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...=CMDJ20g#gid=0

[qpoiuwer]

And your assumption is based on?

We have Lodestone to go off of, which is ordered by synthesis rank. For the lv21-30 range, the first thing is going to be level 21 and the last is going to be 30. You can try crafting them 12 levels under their Lodestone level, but it will not let you try. As far as leves go, you again can compare the items in leves with those on Lodestone. You'll find that level 20 leve items are always in the 21-30 list and never more than halfway through the list. Likewise, for lv25 leves, they always start halfway through the list and go until the end of the list. Your math is probably pretty close, but still slightly off.

[tymora]

Good point: Might work if we nudge my calculated recipe ranks by 1. It would bring the "11 level over cap" synth down to 10, which would fit in with Bruiser's.
Yarn and Fent would become Rank 0...which feels odd but that would still be acceptable.

- But looking at the lodestone recipe lists, recipes are missing. You don't see for example all the different variant of colored Hempen Cloth, only sand-beige.
- There was an update done to fix the recipe lists, indicating they are not perfect either.

Need to ding a few more levels I suppose...unless someone of the appropriate level can furnish the data. Seeing the base exp drop by 50 every time I ding is pretty convincing to me.

[bruiser]

A partial list of recipe levels calculated from exp gained:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...CM3J6OAC#gid=0

It is possible that there might be other factors that affect exp gained that also shifts the exp gained by 50.
- Sub-craft levels might shift it, but Iron Sewing Needle seems unlikely to have a sub-craft.
- Adv. Support doesn't affect exp gained.
- Nor does using different equipment.
- Nor does intentionally not using the correct facilities.
- Nor does not having the proper training.
- Nor does the moon phase. Because I am getting consistent values from the same recipes whenever I craft.

Collected from crafting Mole Brown Hempen Cloth:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...=CMDJ20g#gid=0

Couple other things to consider as well:

1) Recipes could fall into different "exp classes". For example, it's possible that if you synth 2 different items back to back under the exact same conditions, they will both award different exp. This could be implemented very trivially on SE's side by just having a set of maybe 4-5 BASEEXP tables such as the one you mentioned. Where each one is just a slight shift up or shift down of a previous table. One table might give @17 - 40, @18 - 50, @19 - 60, while another recipe gives @17 - 30, @18 - 40, @19 - 50, etc.

2) Different recipes are flat out just "harder" than others. For example, in blacksmithing, nails and fishing hooks are just flat out hard. Much harder than similar items around their same "rank". For example, on the lodestone recipe list, items which appear below nails and hooks are almost always easier than nails and hooks. And it's not because their levels are just out of order on the list, because you get nails / hooks for rank 15 leves for example, and you can fail them consistently while successfully doing rank 20 leves.

So ultimately, these formulas are all great, but the first thing that needs to happen is for a clear and concise definition of "exact recipe rank" to be established and agreed upon. Then we can build the model around that, and see how our observations fit into (or conflict with) that definition, and build formulas accordingly. One example of how to do this even in the face of conflicting data I mentioned above - create multiple "categories" of levels.

Going to look at the google spreadsheet in a bit, but I just got into work.

[tymora]

Couple other things to consider as well:

1) Recipes could fall into different "exp classes". For example, it's possible that if you synth 2 different items back to back under the exact same conditions, they will both award different exp. This could be implemented very trivially on SE's side by just having a set of maybe 4-5 BASEEXP tables such as the one you mentioned. Where each one is just a slight shift up or shift down of a previous table. One table might give @17 - 40, @18 - 50, @19 - 60, while another recipe gives @17 - 30, @18 - 40, @19 - 50, etc.

2) Different recipes are flat out just "harder" than others. For example, in blacksmithing, nails and fishing hooks are just flat out hard. Much harder than similar items around their same "rank". For example, on the lodestone recipe list, items which appear below nails and hooks are almost always easier than nails and hooks. And it's not because their levels are just out of order on the list, because you get nails / hooks for rank 15 leves for example, and you can fail them consistently while successfully doing rank 20 leves.

So ultimately, these formulas are all great, but the first thing that needs to happen is for a clear and concise definition of "exact recipe rank" to be established and agreed upon. Then we can build the model around that, and see how our observations fit into (or conflict with) that definition, and build formulas accordingly. One example of how to do this even in the face of conflicting data I mentioned above - create multiple "categories" of levels.

Going to look at the google spreadsheet in a bit, but I just got into work.

Perhaps there is a required "Facility Grade" that affects exp gained. (a level offset of sorts)
Cloth needs a shift of -3 levels to bring it to consistency.
Ingot need a shift of -1 assuming I can't go to 0.
Nugget seems to need a shift of -2 or -3.

The support required to get rid of the facility required message might give us a clue.

OR perhaps the offset is determined simply by item category. E.g. "All nuggets and cloth have an offset of 3."

- Change in 50 exp per level change is pretty consistent across all recipes if you don't hit the extreme negative end.

[Sci]

I don't have a big sample size for it, but Hasty Hand seems to give fixed XP on every completion. I did about 40 sheep leather synths and saw the same exact XP values on successes by Hasty Hand. And when I leveled, the value decreased (as one would expect). So it might be possible to derive a synth level formula using Hasty Hand.

[tymora]

I don't have a big sample size for it, but Hasty Hand seems to give fixed XP on every completion. I did about 40 sheep leather synths and saw the same exact XP values on successes by Hasty Hand. And when I leveled, the value decreased (as one would expect). So it might be possible to derive a synth level formula using Hasty Hand.

XP will be constant if you don't gain Quality, which the ability says it doesn't increase.

[Cjskater]

Not sure if it helps with anything, but I noticed today that I no longer get SP from Cotton Thread at 33. Pretty sure I was getting like 10SP at 32.

[tymora]

Did you stop getting EXP at the same time? Or earlier?

[Ratatapa]

Not sure if it helps with anything, but I noticed today that I no longer get SP from Cotton Thread at 33. Pretty sure I was getting like 10SP at 32.

Im 31 and getting 0 xp on yarns


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bruiser]

That could be another interesting element. The level at which you no longer gain SP or EXP for a synth.

Let's name the following variables:

I - A specific item
S_I - Level at which you no longer gain SP for synthing I
X_I - Level at which you no longer gain EXP for synthing I
A_I - First level at which I does not give an error when attempting
R_I - "Actual recipe rank" of an item

My own definition of R_I that I've been using is that R_I = A_I + 10 for every item I.

S_I, X_I, and A_I are easily observable and require no assumptions to determine. If it turns out that either S_I-R_I or X_I-R_I is an invariant, then it lends some even further credibility to the above definition of R_I. If, however, we find two items I and J such that both S_I-R_I != S_J-R_J or that X_I-R_I != X_J-R_J, then we have either a bad assumption, or a bad definition somewhere.