Recipe Ranks & Equipment Scaling

[tymora]

Im 31 and getting 0 xp on yarns


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I have cotton yarn at 14. This says 0 exp at -17 under my system, which I don't see with Hempen Yarn at lvl 18.
Something else to look into...

[bruiser]

I have cotton yarn at 14. This says 0 exp at -17 under my system, which I don't see with Hempen Yarn at lvl 18.
Something else to look into...

That doesn't necessarily mean he was getting >0 at 30. We don't know that 31 is the first level at which he got 0

[tymora]

That doesn't necessarily mean he was getting >0 at 30. We don't know that 31 is the first level at which he got 0

You're right. Silly me. Let me see what happens to Hempen Yarn when I ding 19.

[tymora]

Sub-crafts can also give the skill too low to attempt message right?

[Jojimbo]

They can, I was trying to attempt Iron BS tool but couldn't until I got weaver from r1 to r5 (still got the 'your weaving skill is too low' but I was able to attempt the synth).

[VentusInvictus]

It would be great if you could determine the equations for weapons when equipping at sub-optimal rank. I did a simple show of math of this on my blog, showing that Iron Dagger provided more ACC but less ATT than Ash Macuahuitl around rank 27 and 28.

If you could have formulas we could create lists to show when players should switch weapons in order to gain the most benefit in a particular stat (likely either ATT or ACC). If you want some help testing I would be happy to, just send me a PM on what youd like me to do.

[CasualPlayer]

We have Lodestone to go off of, which is ordered by synthesis rank. For the lv21-30 range, the first thing is going to be level 21 and the last is going to be 30. You can try crafting them 12 levels under their Lodestone level, but it will not let you try. As far as leves go, you again can compare the items in leves with those on Lodestone. You'll find that level 20 leve items are always in the 21-30 list and never more than halfway through the list. Likewise, for lv25 leves, they always start halfway through the list and go until the end of the list. Your math is probably pretty close, but still slightly off.

The lodestone has some inconsistencies. I have gotten darksilver squares as a rank 30 leve while the lodestone places the recipe at the beginning of the 21-30 tab.

[tymora]

It would be great if you could determine the equations for weapons when equipping at sub-optimal rank. I did a simple show of math of this on my blog, showing that Iron Dagger provided more ACC but less ATT than Ash Macuahuitl around rank 27 and 28.

If you could have formulas we could create lists to show when players should switch weapons in order to gain the most benefit in a particular stat (likely either ATT or ACC). If you want some help testing I would be happy to, just send me a PM on what youd like me to do.

I haven't been using over-leveled weapons so far, hence no info.
I'll need at least 3 data points on any weapon for an estimate. Obviously the more data points, the better.
Stats scale differently so it will be good to have all of them. Just tell me what the stats are that you gain from just the weapon at each level. Remember to strip naked except for your weapon to minimize complications.

I would think it would be easiest using leveling a new job from 1 to 7 using a lvl 7 weapon.

[tymora]

Came across this today:
http://ffxiv.yg.com/recipe/bronze-knuckles?id=78

If the comments there are to be trusted, then it seems good gear can drop the min. level required to craft an item. Of course, there is a good chance the last fella might just be pulling stars out of his ass.

Blacksmithing Level calculated from exp gain = 25 and I got this item on a 20 Leve.

[Kaeda]

Just wanted to add that as a level 12 goldsmith, the level 7 hammer, Bronze Chaser Hammer, adds the same amount of craftsmanship/magic craftsmanship/control as the level 22 hammer, Iron Chaser Hammer. The scaling in the game is weird and it's definitely not always better to get higher, non-optimal gear. Even my canvas halfgloves are the same as my cotton halfgloves for the control stat as a level 12 goldsmith, 15 carpenter, and 13 alchemist.

The difference in stat needs to be quite significant for it to matter. For my gathering jobs, Dodoskin Jerkin beats Cotton Shirt even though I'm at optimal for the shirt, but the same isn't true for Sheepskin Culotte versus Dodoskin Culotte. Getting a sense of how gear scales will be very helpful.

I'll try to keep an eye on what level gives me better stats on these items. My botanist uses the level 12 Plumed Bronze Hatchet and it's currently 11, so I'll take a look at that.

PS: Strangely, while I've been trying to get optimal gear only, I use a bamboo fishing rod instead of a willow fishing rod for my 15 fisher... only because I was too cheap to buy a willow and then a bamboo -_-;

[tymora]

Just wanted to add that as a level 12 goldsmith, the level 7 hammer, Bronze Chaser Hammer, adds the same amount of craftsmanship/magic craftsmanship/control as the level 22 hammer, Iron Chaser Hammer. The scaling in the game is weird and it's definitely not always better to get higher, non-optimal gear. Even my canvas halfgloves are the same as my cotton halfgloves for the control stat as a level 12 goldsmith, 15 carpenter, and 13 alchemist.

The difference in stat needs to be quite significant for it to matter. For my gathering jobs, Dodoskin Jerkin beats Cotton Shirt even though I'm at optimal for the shirt, but the same isn't true for Sheepskin Culotte versus Dodoskin Culotte. Getting a sense of how gear scales will be very helpful.

I'll try to keep an eye on what level gives me better stats on these items. My botanist uses the level 12 Plumed Bronze Hatchet and it's currently 11, so I'll take a look at that.

PS: Strangely, while I've been trying to get optimal gear only, I use a bamboo fishing rod instead of a willow fishing rod for my 15 fisher... only because I was too cheap to buy a willow and then a bamboo -_-;

I have the scaling formula for crafting tools and armor on the first post. It would be nice to verify the formula with what you are getting.

Bronze | Iron -> Calculated:
18 | 40 -> (0.8 - 10/30) * 40 = 18.66666 => 19
16 | 36 -> 16.8 => 17
14 | 31 -> 14.5 => 15

Seems like I am off by 1? If you are actually using a "Bronze Chaser Hammer+1", then my formula is accurate. Can you confirm or deny that?
If my formula is off, please kindly keep a record of the exact crafting stats you get every time you ding, until you hit 22 gs.
Thanks!

On the side, compare this to Ornamental Hammer which gives 25/22/19 for the crafting stats. You might like to use a Ornamental Hammer until lvl 17.
The way SE is spacing out equipment optimal levels suggests they are trying to place the break-even point between 2 pieces of adjacent gear at the mid-point rank.
E.g. Using my formula, Bronze(7) <-> Ornamental(12) break-even is at 2.4 above 7. 2.5 is half. Ornamental(12) <-> Iron(22) is at 5.25. 5.0 is half.
If you want to jump 2 grades, try the level 1/3 of the way between the 2 optimal levels. It won't beat the tool that SE meant you to use though.

One of my LS mates also noted that durability of the tool drops faster if under-leveled as well. I can't confirm this but its worth a note.

[bruiser]

Just wanted to add that as a level 12 goldsmith, the level 7 hammer, Bronze Chaser Hammer, adds the same amount of craftsmanship/magic craftsmanship/control as the level 22 hammer, Iron Chaser Hammer. The scaling in the game is weird and it's definitely not always better to get higher, non-optimal gear. Even my canvas halfgloves are the same as my cotton halfgloves for the control stat as a level 12 goldsmith, 15 carpenter, and 13 alchemist.

If I'm reading this correctly, I thought this was all well known and totally expected behavior. Of course it's not preferable to have a level 22 hammer at level 12.

BTW, in my experience the stats scale linearly until you are 1 level away from the "optimal" level. Making the jump from -1 to exactly optimal however, is huge.

[zalasta]

The lodestone has some inconsistencies. I have gotten darksilver squares as a rank 30 leve while the lodestone places the recipe at the beginning of the 21-30 tab.

Are they the same exact recipe (as in if the ingredients are the same)? Alchemy has two different table salt recipes, one is 10 ranks lower than the other.

[Kaeda]

I have the scaling formula for crafting tools and armor on the first post. It would be nice to verify the formula with what you are getting.

Bronze | Iron -> Calculated:
18 | 40 -> (0.8 - 10/30) * 40 = 18.66666 => 19
16 | 36 -> 16.8 => 17
14 | 31 -> 14.5 => 15

Seems like I am off by 1? If you are actually using a "Bronze Chaser Hammer+1", then my formula is accurate. Can you confirm or deny that?
If my formula is off, please kindly keep a record of the exact crafting stats you get every time you ding, until you hit 22 gs.
Thanks!

On the side, compare this to Ornamental Hammer which gives 25/22/19 for the crafting stats. You might like to use a Ornamental Hammer until lvl 17.
The way SE is spacing out equipment optimal levels suggests they are trying to place the break-even point between 2 pieces of adjacent gear at the mid-point rank.
E.g. Using my formula, Bronze(7) <-> Ornamental(12) break-even is at 2.4 above 7. 2.5 is half. Ornamental(12) <-> Iron(22) is at 5.25. 5.0 is half.
If you want to jump 2 grades, try the level 1/3 of the way between the 2 optimal levels. It won't beat the tool that SE meant you to use though.

One of my LS mates also noted that durability of the tool drops faster if under-leveled as well. I can't confirm this but its worth a note.

Unfortunately, I'm using all NQ hammers. At level 12 Goldsmith, no gear on:

Bronze Chaser Hammer (Level 7): Craft 18, M.Craft 16, Control 14
Bronze Ornamental Hammer (Level 12): Craft 25, M.Craft 22, Control 19
Iron Chaser Hammer (Level 22): Craft 18, M.Craft 16, Control 14

While it's true that optimal is better in most cases, it's not always possible to get the optimal item. I was a level 12 goldsmith with a level 7 weapon and I couldn't find the level 12 one, but I found the level 22 one for a cheap price. I thought the level 22 weapon would be slightly better than the level 7 one at 12, at least. Luckily I was able to finally get the level 12 one at a decent price.

I'll continue to monitor goldsmith although it'll probably be a while before I reach 22 ><

Just looking around at people on my server, there are a lot of people who *don't* realize optimal level is best. It's easy to believe when the stats glow green in the menu, but aren't reflective of the actual stats after equipping them...

PS: Sorry about not noticing the formulas, it was late when I read the thread and confused melee weapons with crafting tools. Thanks for jotting down a potential formula to gear scaling.

[tymora]

All recipes, however, have set attribute requirements. Attempting a recipe with attributes below those required will result in lessened progress and quality, even for successful actions.

I think this line from today's dev post puts all our definitions of "recipe rank" in question.

[bruiser]

Came across this today:
http://ffxiv.yg.com/recipe/bronze-knuckles?id=78

If the comments there are to be trusted, then it seems good gear can drop the min. level required to craft an item. Of course, there is a good chance the last fella might just be pulling stars out of his ass.

Are you coming to that conclusion just because he was able to synth it at 12 BSM but others weren't? The other guy could have 0 TAN for example.

[tymora]

Are you coming to that conclusion just because he was able to synth it at 12 BSM but others weren't? The other guy could have 0 TAN for example.

Just a suggestion but I believe he is ass-shitting.
If you combine that with SE's statement about recipes are based on attributes, then we might have something like:
Stat to synth = Recipe stat level - Crafting Rank

Add: Ok, the LW requirement for this recipe is much lower than 15. L15 LW gets rid of the messages but doesn't stop you from trying. It also requires Basic Support to remove the facilities message. (19 BS, 14 LW with Cotton general craft set + 12 hammer)

I suppose it'll be how we want to define the sub-craft level...The first level we no longer see the message? Or the first level we can try synthing...
Can someone with 15+ BS and 5 to 11 LW try it?


On the side, according to a fella from the LS, leves will remove the sub-craft requirement for a synth (even though you still see the message.)

Found another +11 level recipe based on my formula - Silver Choker, L20 leve
Tested sub-craft using Bronze Knuckles to see if it affected EXP -> It didn't.

[kanitta]

I just got r32 LW tool and tried it at LW29, it seems stat scaling formula no longer working with this tool (and/or higher)
Here's data I have collected.
Iron Head Knife base: 55 49 43
@29: 44 39 34
@30: 45 40 35

I'll try to get 31 and post stat at r31 asap

[tymora]

Just to be sure that you are naked (other than weapon/underwear) when you got these values yes?

[kanitta]

Yes, these values are from naked with tool only.

I put formula into excel and it works well at r22 tool according to limited data I had, just r32 values are way off.

Update: at r31 tool stat are 47 42 37