How to identify a homophobe

[Kuya]

Gays are not bullied over religious intolerance. Religious intolerance is merely the rhetoric representing a more fundamental opposition to homosexuality. We're talking about beliefs. First and foremost, the belief in the primacy of reproduction, and second the belief in traditional gender norms. The second is the most important one of all, as it is shared with people who aren't even religious.

[Ksandra]

I'm talking about beliefs. First and foremost, the belief in the primacy of reproduction, and second the belief in traditional gender norms. The second is the most important one of all, as it is shared with people who aren't even religious.

ftfy, but thanks for clarifying why you think it's the same.

However in your own post by adding the belief in the primacy of reproduction, that only relates to homosexuals. So even if the latter is "more important" that still doesn't make them equal because gays have the added issue in the former.

[edit] in the end though it doesn't matter to me because that wasn't what bothers me about the sentence (the face book one) in the first place.

[Kuya]

Nerds are also bullied for exactly this same fundamental reason. The characteristics of a nerd, the stereotypical ones, run outside the traditional traits of male gender. While the traditional and dominant male specializes in sports, the nerd rejects this and pursues more academic goals. The same is true of the male who prefers the arts. The nerd is stereotyped as not possessing the physique of a dominant male. The nerd does not possess the muscles that define a dominant male. The nerd is also so socially inadquate, that he cannot properly socialize with women, and the dominant male must have the skills to manage females. Finally, the nerd is characterized as lacking the attitude of a dominant male. He is neither assertive or aggresive.

Ultimately, the nerd is a target because he neither conforms to dominant male traits, and he is also a target because the way socialization amongst males (traditionally speaking) works is that in order to assert oneself as masculine, one must also attack the masculinity of other males. In order to do this, one victimizes and turns other males into submissive objects. In other words, one attacks other males to present oneself as the alpha male. This itself represents dominant masculinity.

You will notice the importance of appearances, when you can tell that the specific gays that are attacked the most, are the ones who are the most feminine. This is because gender is, mostly, about appearances.

[Ksandra]

In Kuya's world, there is no such thing as a female nerd.

[Kuya]

A rejection of female nerds is less intense than male nerds. However, the rejection is still based on gender. A female nerd does not show the proper interest in her appearance, and for a woman, this is vital. But for women, even when they encroach on male characteristics, the social rejection has always been less extreme than if a man were to encroach on female traits.

[shiarua]

Pretty Old Testament right there, bro. Jesus' teachings of love and tolerance? I guess you haven't gotten that far yet or just skipped over it.

How do you define tolerance?

[Cadsuane]

However in your own post by adding the belief in the primacy of reproduction, that only relates to homosexuals. So even if the latter is "more important" that still doesn't make them equal because gays have the added issue in the former.

No, it's an injunction that applies to heterosexuals too. Prohibitions against pre-marital sex, contraception, and any remotely unconventional sexual practices, and so on, are all expressions of the idea that sex for pleasure is morally repugnant.

[Cadsuane]

How do you define tolerance?

incoming "well that's just like, your opinion man"

[Tsuko_Asura]

I'm genuinely dumbfounded by anyone having the audacity to refer to my sexuality as a "lifestyle".

Put an attractive male in my bed, my dick gets hard. Put an attractive female in my bed, and my flacid penis and I are going to ask if she wants to watch Sex and the City 2 while cuddling, then I'm going to masturbate to the attractive male that should have been in my bed when she leaves.

My sexuality, very much like yours, is out of my hands. Know what is in your hands? The decision to base your life choices off a book written by a bunch of farmers who were probably fucking their own sheep.

[Ksandra]

A female nerd does not show the proper interest in her appearance,

That is not always the case, and is not limited to nerds. I knew plenty of good-looking female nerds in high school who put on make-up wear nice clothes etc, that still got picked on.

the problem I see with your argument even in the male one is this:

If a nerd is muscular, is fit, plays sports, etc. etc. and then at home goes and plays D&D, he will not get picked on. (maybe teased by friends, but more than likely not bullied).

If a gay is muscular, is fit, plays sports, etc. etc. and comes out of the closet, he will get bullied even by people knowing he fits the male role in every other way.


On top of the fact that you are hugely generalizing nerds into the "worse case scenario nerd". A guy doesn't have to be weak muscled/socially awkward/etc. to be a nerd, nor does having muscle prevent getting picked on.


I would say that it might be more because there is a stronger social stigma against gays than there are against nerds.

More than likely the kids (bullies) are not hearing from their parents "nerds are gross", but they might be hearing "gays are gross", especially nowadays considering gay marriage is such a hot topic that parents would be commenting on what they see on the news. Which just reaffirms to the kid that they are right to pick on them.


[edit]

issue in the former.
No, it's an injunction that applies to heterosexuals too. Prohibitions against pre-marital sex, contraception, and any remotely unconventional sexual practices, and so on, are all expressions of the idea that sex for pleasure is morally repugnant.

I was talking about nerds vs. homosexuals getting bullied. Your point doesn't relate to that at all.

[Cadsuane]

whoops!

[Ksandra]

whoops!

I was gonna say "cad thinks nerds are being bullied over having premartial sex?! I didn't even know nerds could get sex!"

[Dimmauk]

By the way, it is wrong to be against homosexuality. It doesn't make you ignorant, but it does make you mouth breathing piece of shit.

When will the internet bullying stop?

[Kuya]

That is not always the case, and is not limited to nerds. I knew plenty of good-looking female nerds in high school who put on make-up wear nice clothes etc, that still got picked on.

the problem I see with your argument even in the male one is this:

If a nerd is muscular, is fit, plays sports, etc. etc. and then at home goes and plays D&D, he will not get picked on. (maybe teased by friends, but more than likely not bullied).

If a gay is muscular, is fit, plays sports, etc. etc. and comes out of the closet, he will get bullied even by people knowing he fits the male role in every other way.


On top of the fact that you are hugely generalizing nerds into the "worse case scenario nerd". A guy doesn't have to be weak muscled/socially awkward/etc. to be a nerd, nor does having muscle prevent getting picked on.


I would say that it might be more because there is a stronger social stigma against gays than there are against nerds.

More than likely the kids (bullies) are not hearing from their parents "nerds are gross", but they might be hearing "gays are gross", especially nowadays considering gay marriage is such a hot topic that parents would be commenting on what they see on the news. Which just reaffirms to the kid that they are right to pick on them.


[edit]



I was talking about nerds vs. homosexuals getting bullied. Your point doesn't relate to that at all.

I'm going to try to be patient with you, but your lack of reading skills annoy me. Let's go over this quick:

1. Exceptions do not matter when speaking of rules. When speaking of specific cases, one needs specific details, but when discussing general trends one is looking for sistematic causes and problems. One generalizes out of a study of multiple cases, and one uses this information to formulate a theory. Unless i study your anecdote in detail, you bringing it up means absolutely nothing.

2. Do you know what a nerd means? A nerd is both a subculture and a stereotype. Guy who is muscular and plays sports but plays D&D will not be perceived as a nerd. But it's not the label that matters, it's the perception of his gender. That he plays D&D is a minute detail given his other traits.

3. A gay man that is perceived to be masculine will not be assumed as gay. People will only figure it out if he demonstrates enough gender-incongruous traits. The only other way for people to know is if he tells them.

The reason why presenting oneself as gay (that is, he feels attracted to and sleeps with men) would attract revulsion even if one looks masculine is precisely because a man sleeping with other men is not part of what a masculine man perceived to be. I am using dominant and masculine as synonymous for the purposes of analysis.

Being attracted to and sleeping with women is part of the same act that presents to others that one is a dominant male, and a dominant male, in European culture, sleeps exclusively with women.

People who break more gender norms are more rejected than those who break less.

4. Generalizations are made for analysis. The archetype of a nerd collects all qualities associated with that image. It is unnecessary to talk about exceptions here. This is also true in part because imagined stereotypes can impose themselves on reality.

5. Of course gays are picked on more! They break more gender norms! Especially the most important ones! (never get penetrated)

6. Parents don't have to say anything. They don't even have to mention gays or nerds explicitly. There are many socializing agents, of which parents are only one. Children learn from others adults, kids, and other media. Nobody has to tell kids specifically what is manly and what is girly. Kids pick this up through a socialization process and eventually create these stereotypes in their head on what it means to be male and what it means to be female, and they can tell when someone else isn't following the stereotype.

What ultimately determines how agressive a kid will behave towards those who deviate from a gender norm is:
1. The extent that the environment allows for alternative gender expressions.

2. The degree that the kid feels insecure about his own position in this continuum.

[BerenTebogo]

Kuya will you make me a homophobephobe?

Also, to futher Kuya's point: I am open about playing FFXI for 8 years, valuing video games over people, and generally being the biggest nerd in the world. Not a single person has given me shit about it to my face in ~5+ years. I'm just considered a good-looking, fit guy who has weird habits that nobody will comment on.

[Snick]

I'm genuinely dumbfounded by anyone having the audacity to refer to my sexuality as a "lifestyle".

Put an attractive male in my bed, my dick gets hard. Put an attractive female in my bed, and my flacid penis and I are going to ask if she wants to watch Sex and the City 2 while cuddling, then I'm going to masturbate to the attractive male that should have been in my bed when she leaves.

My sexuality, very much like yours, is out of my hands. Know what is in your hands? The decision to base your life choices off a book written by a bunch of farmers who were probably fucking their own sheep.

Why are you so awesome? :c

[Ksandra]

Kuya will you make me a homophobephobe?

Also, to futher Kuya's point: I am open about playing FFXI for 8 years, valuing video games over people, and generally being the biggest nerd in the world. Not a single person has given me shit about it to my face in ~5+ years. I'm just considered a good-looking, fit guy who has weird habits that nobody will comment on.

actually that's my point though....

[edit] unless you are trying to say that in your case if you were to have come out of the closet you still wouldn't have been bullied. Then you'd be supporting kuya's point and not mine.

[Cadsuane]

Kuya will you make me a homophobephobe?

Also, to futher Kuya's point: I am open about playing FFXI for 8 years, valuing video games over people, and generally being the biggest nerd in the world. Not a single person has given me shit about it to my face in ~5+ years. I'm just considered a good-looking, fit guy who has weird habits that nobody will comment on.

I can give you shit about being an out of touch misanthropic narcissist if you like.

[SephYuyX]

THIS IS STHO SUPER DE DUPER BOIS!!!

[Cadsuane]

THIS IS STHO SUPER DE DUPER BOIS!!!

I hate how you've become popular by continually making fun of yourself before anyone else has the chance to.