14 RMTs and Bottery

[Izzy]

ITT: No one ever took Economics.

If money is easy to obtain, everything will be more expensive. If money is hard to obtain, everything will be cheaper.

It's all relative.

[Ksandra]

Your pointless to argue w/because you use every extreme example possible. Ok, if an item cost 10m in XI that was unrealistic for a LOT of ppl to obtain. if something costs 10m in XIV, thats realistic to farm. And using WoW as an example: its easy to make money in that game and yet things aren't priced beyond people's reach. Just because its easy to farm money doesn't mean rare things cost an arm and a leg. Shit, there is a pet that is about to be obsolete w/cata launch, and this pet that will NEVER BE SEEN AGAIN in the game is only going for 12k. Don't get me wrong, thats a lot of money, but even an item that is THAT rare (and sorry, it doesn't get more rare then an item thats rare to get in the first place, and will not exist in the game after a month) can be got w/ a realstic amount of farming.

You can't compare wow to ffxiv or ffxi for that matter when it comes to money flow because money is spent differently in wow than in the ffmmos, and money can be obtained at a constant rate in wow (vs. limited levies per day). And at this point in time ffxiv's economy is severely player controlled and everything is circulated from the players.

Nigs need to learn about supply and demand if they think rare items are going to be any easier to 'farm for' just because gil is easier to obtain. That just means the shit is going to be priced higher.

also this^

Of course this is speculation because there's little we know about how endgame gear will be dealt with in ffxiv, but if it's similar to ffxi then we're going to end up buying shit way over our normal means.

[Lucavi]

ITT: No one ever took Economics.

If money is easy to obtain, everything will be more expensive. If money is hard to obtain, everything will be cheaper.

It's all relative.

You're late.

@Ksandra: It'll certainly be more like XI's than WoW's, that's for sure. So far it looks like a hodge-podge mix of Rolan bazaaars and word of mouth. We'll have to see what kind of AH system they implement. If it's a carbon copy of XI's, then we'll immediately know that this economy will be XI-2. I can't see them doing something smart like implementing recommended prices for each item to help "set" the market, because that would take away from people's "freedoms".

Hopefully they'll have some expensive set of NPCable-onry items that will help drain gil out of the economy. As it stands right now, there's absolutely nothing in place to curb inflation. Xmas 2005, baby! Nevar forget!

[Lyramion]

and we care about RMT why?

I like to follow the "RMT culture" and am curious what gameflaws and edges they come up with to abuse.

[Arximiro]

You're late.

@Ksandra: It'll certainly be more like XI's than WoW's, that's for sure. So far it looks like a hodge-podge mix of Rolan bazaaars and word of mouth. We'll have to see what kind of AH system they implement. If it's a carbon copy of XI's, then we'll immediately know that this economy will be XI-2. I can't see them doing something smart like implementing recommended prices for each item to help "set" the market, because that would take away from people's "freedoms".

Hopefully they'll have some expensive set of NPCable-onry items that will help drain gil out of the economy. As it stands right now, there's absolutely nothing in place to curb inflation. Xmas 2005, baby! Nevar forget!

Even if none of the end game gear is sellable, people will still pay to come along and gain rights to obtain said gear. Assuming that hard mobs are going to drop good gear at some point. Lucavi where the shit are you man, I haven't seen you once since I started!

[Lucavi]

^ Miss you too, bro. /brofist.

There was a pretty good discussion a few weeks back somewhere in standard about that very thing. I think it had to do with whether or not people could join battles once they started. People were trying to analyze whether or not it would be viable for people to pay to join in a party and thus "pay" for a drop, considering that a new person to the party is excluded from any pre-existing loot in the pool.

After it was confirmed that you cannot join mid-party, the idea still floated around that people could pay a shell to join a spot beforehand, and, while that would presumably weaken the shell's fighting power, it was argued that any shell strong enough to sell the drops from a NM kill is presumably strong enough to kill the mob short of a person anyway.

So yeah, you're probably correct. Its not a situation that is exclusive to XI either. WoW has plenty of guilds willing to take a paying pug along for the ride at a shot at a particular item.

[Meresgi]

Nigs need to learn about supply and demand if they think rare items are going to be any easier to 'farm for' just because gil is easier to obtain. That just means the shit is going to be priced higher.

Currently, and it could change, but rare items are only "rare" in the context of some people have just leveled faster then others. So yeah supply and demand is happening but if you wait a week or two the prices on most items drop by tons. I would imagine most NM items would be bind on pickup and not sellable, but who knows.

[bruiser]

Currently, and it could change, but rare items are only "rare" in the context of some people have just leveled faster then others. So yeah supply and demand is happening but if you wait a week or two the prices on most items drop by tons. I would imagine most NM items would be bind on pickup and not sellable, but who knows.

Even once people reach endgame, it's going to be all about the HQs. Sure it's not hard to +1 an item even if you're close to (or even under) the level required to make it. But what about, say, +3? +3s are going to be to 14 what +1s were to 11. When the item you're trying to make requires synthesis materials from high level leves, that rarely drop, and is a rank 50 synth, you can pretty much bet that +3s are going to be outrageously priced. And it's not just those either, it's just a fundamental principle that an economy where currency is worthless is, by definition, a complete failure. Since I don't think they want their economy to be a complete failure, then necessarily there will be purchasable items that are both desirable and out of reach. If not, the economy is a failure and they have to fix it.

[Lucavi]

^ Based on this... assessment, do you think XI's economy was a success or a failure?

[Katlan]

Failure imo

[Lucavi]

Based on what's above, I have to say failure, simply because there are games that do it much better, but I want to hear his view.

[bruiser]

^ Based on this... assessment, do you think XI's economy was a success or a failure?

FFXI's economy suffered from constant cycles of rampant inflation, followed by them deleting massive boatloads of gil from the economy, only to have the cycle repeat.

That will kill any economy. I feel like the RMT discovered and capitalized on a number of gil duping exploits which led to the situation. Such exploits are not as uncommon as you might think. I wouldn't be surprised if they've already found some in 14.

In one game I worked on, which I won't name, RMT people would stand at the edge of zones and go back and forth for hours. Server logs indicated they were doing all kinds of random crap right before, and right after zoning. And that's all they would do for 24 hours straight. On a different game, which I work with someone who worked on, one particularly humorous gil duping exploit involved standing still while using a speed hack. How do you figure crap like that out, really? But they do, and I'd wager that a huge percentage of RMT income comes from gil duping exploits.

If it hadn't been for that, who knows what 11's economy would have been like.

[Lucavi]

Was it a success or a failure? I'm not asking if it would have been more of a success if X was done, or less of a failure if Y was not done. Overall, based on what you said above, was XI's economic system a success or a failure.

Obviously there are shades of grey, but I'm asking for a yes or no answer.

[bruiser]

Was it a success or a failure? I'm not asking if it would have been more of a success if X was done, or less of a failure if Y was not done. Overall, based on what you said above, was XI's economic system a success or a failure.

Obviously there are shades of grey, but I'm asking for a yes or no answer.

If I say it was a failure, you'll say I contradicted myself even though I didn't. If I say it was a success, you'll say I'm a retard.

[Lucavi]

I won't say anything, I just want to know. I'm not trying to trap you. I don't think you know me as well as you might think.

[bruiser]

I won't say anything, I just want to know. I'm not trying to trap you. I don't think you know me as well as you might think.

Ok, in that case I think 11's economy was terrible. But an economy has to be viewed in the bigger picture. How a game designs their item progression for example is a big determining factor in how much things are "worth", and FFXI's item progression was terrible. And the economy was only made worse through all the rampant gil duping that must have been going on.

Everyone always cites WoW as an example of a game with a good economy, but there are certainly other sacrifices. Before WotLK, lots of people complained that the best gear was only attainable through raids, but they didn't have the time / dedication to put into a high end raiding guild and so certain items were unattainable.

So idk. It's hard to talk about a "good" economy or a "bad" economy. I would say that FFXI's economy was unhealthy though, in large part due to the mass inflation / gil deleting cycle that kept happening. Nobody knows if that was the only factor though. But their item progression was stupid, so who knows if it would have been different without the RMT.

[Brigandier]

Ok, if an item cost 10m in XI that was unrealistic for a LOT of ppl to obtain. if something costs 10m in XIV, thats realistic to farm.

I am going to assume you have never heard of inflation. Allow me to educate you:

Inflation:
Economics. a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency (opposed to deflation).

If that didn't come across clearly, it means that when more money goes into circulation its value drops. As Gil is easier to obtain in FFXIV, there will be a much higher abundance of it. As there is a much higher abundance, it carries a lower value. As the value is lower, people will be able to charge more and actually have people pay since they have a ton of this low value gil. Supply and demand then works its magic and you suddenly have items for 100m.

Wait for it.

[Kaylia]

The issue isn't inflation, but how money is distributed accross the playerbase. Basically, how large is the gap between the middle and upper class players. If everyone farm money at the same rate, nothing will ever seem out of reach. If however, a select few make a lot more money than the rest, you will have luxury items that are completely out of reach.

The biggest impact inflation has in a mmo is telling you if creating money (guildleve, drop, sell to vendor) is better than making money from other players (sell items/service to other players), and if you should save your money or buy items.

[CasualPlayer]

Great discussion and all...... but since the economy and item progression in ffxiv isn't established in the least. How is any of it relevant or factual?

[Foras]

I'm hope when ps3 release hits they will have new servers. I don't think I want to jump into an already established server where there is rampant inflation and every high level has a lock on crafting markets. Who knows if they will even have new servers though.