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[Byrthnoth]

I'd be shocked if lolDD BRD couldn't put up similar numbers with Evisceration. They have access to all the magian daggers (while DRK has no magian axe access), and can easily cap gear Haste during TP. Give them enough buffers (how convenient) and Attack wouldn't be an issue. What Axes can DRK even use anymore? I'm thinking about it and coming up with . . . Maneater and Woody? Same as always?

So, same amount of Dual Wield, Bard has much higher DPS (assuming my Axe memory is correct). Acc isn't an issue for either job, DRK gets the advantage of Attack Bonuses but doesn't bring Double Minuet to the party so it actually loses in the Attack category. They're both B- skills. BRD gets whichever bonuses are associated with the 2 magians it picks, while DRK gets Maneater. They both have Hecatomb gear access. Last Resort and Soul Eater going to make up the difference? lolmagic?

Ridill offhand DRK (lol) may actually pull ahead of Bard. Ridill is nearing the end of its lifetime, but it's still a respectable weapon at the moment and its DPS and TP gain are high enough that they may counteract Bard's other advantages.

[Yugl]

Next update: DRK 8Hit Scythe Critical WS with 5fTP and 75%STR mod. BRD Nerf. SAM 8Hit GK Critical + DMG WS with 20fTP + 200% STR mod + 9x multiplier.

[FailureMidgard]

I'd be shocked if lolDD BRD couldn't put up similar numbers with Evisceration. They have access to all the magian daggers (while DRK has no magian axe access), and can easily cap gear Haste during TP. Give them enough buffers (how convenient) and Attack wouldn't be an issue. What Axes can DRK even use anymore? I'm thinking about it and coming up with . . . Maneater and Woody? Same as always?

So, same amount of Dual Wield, Bard has much higher DPS (assuming my Axe memory is correct). Acc isn't an issue for either job, DRK gets the advantage of Attack Bonuses but doesn't bring Double Minuet to the party so it actually loses in the Attack category. They're both B- skills. BRD gets whichever bonuses are associated with the 2 magians it picks, while DRK gets Maneater. They both have Hecatomb gear access. Last Resort and Soul Eater going to make up the difference? lolmagic?

Ridill offhand DRK (lol) may actually pull ahead of Bard. Ridill is nearing the end of its lifetime, but it's still a respectable weapon at the moment and its DPS and TP gain are high enough that they may counteract Bard's other advantages.

Really? You're seriously going to come here and argue for minuets for the bard, ignoring the cast-time of them? Acc not being an issue is insanely situational (as is the perma-attack cap people like to toss around)...Hecatomb? You think that's still good? Don't think I'd use a single piece TBH. Rampage isn't even Dex modded...Varangian/Heafoc/Bale hands down. Evisc isn't even STR modded, so not really sure why'd you think Heca is good on that either, bards may as well use fucking Leaping Boots. But hey, since Brd is a serious DD and attack is always capped, we should all be orgasming over Ludic Mitts. Sorry, drk has access to better gear, has JAs that do help somewhat, and job traits that do help. Both jobs can cap haste, and yet Drk will have more acc, attack, etc in their gear while doing so. Dual magians will still have less stats than what a DRK has access too (though higher base dmg is obv not bad). And then again, since we're quoting "enough buffers", the DRK is bringing +~7% attack for the party by enhancing chaos roll. Oh ya, add that to attack bonus and the DRK has higher attack without spending 10+ seconds doing songs.

FWIW, a Sam with a single ridill /war is going to beat out both, and still won't even beat out a Sam with a polearm (or Fudo). Yea, RR is amazing, it's overpowered, but some people here are pretty delusional in how far it goes.


Really, a good bard with the right gear can do decent damage - I won't deny that, but this argument is silly, the situations being setup are beyond silly (what is this, alliance exp only? Or are we gonna argue that in a DD/brd/mage setup, the Brd fits better in the DD spot than a Drk (not to mention you aren't perma acc and attack capped in said situation)?

[Andradi]

How much does a good DRK average on guillotine in abyssea these days anyway (accounting for souleater used for its entire duration), 2k or so?

[Vincento]

Triple digits~ mid quad. Consider that Quietus is putting out ~1800~ numbers.

Also, Brd has access to Lithe Boots, Tumbler Trunks, and a vast majority of other pieces that a Thf would wear. If it were not for the casting time it should not surprise you that a Brd would out DD a Drk in many situations - mainly exp/lower tier nms.

[Byrthnoth]

Really? You're seriously going to come here and argue for minuets for the bard, ignoring the cast-time of them? Acc not being an issue is insanely situational (as is the perma-attack cap people like to toss around)...Hecatomb? You think that's still good? Don't think I'd use a single piece TBH. Rampage isn't even Dex modded...Varangian/Heafoc/Bale hands down. Evisc isn't even STR modded, so not really sure why'd you think Heca is good on that either, bards may as well use fucking Leaping Boots. But hey, since Brd is a serious DD and attack is always capped, we should all be orgasming over Ludic Mitts. Sorry, drk has access to better gear, has JAs that do help somewhat, and job traits that do help. Both jobs can cap haste, and yet Drk will have more acc, attack, etc in their gear while doing so. Dual magians will still have less stats than what a DRK has access too (though higher base dmg is obv not bad). And then again, since we're quoting "enough buffers", the DRK is bringing +~7% attack for the party by enhancing chaos roll. Oh ya, add that to attack bonus and the DRK has higher attack without spending 10+ seconds doing songs.

FWIW, a Sam with a single ridill /war is going to beat out both, and still won't even beat out a Sam with a polearm (or Fudo). Yea, RR is amazing, it's overpowered, but some people here are pretty delusional in how far it goes.


Really, a good bard with the right gear can do decent damage - I won't deny that, but this argument is silly, the situations being setup are beyond silly (what is this, alliance exp only? Or are we gonna argue that in a DD/brd/mage setup, the Brd fits better in the DD spot than a Drk (not to mention you aren't perma acc and attack capped in said situation)?

You're ignoring the benefit double minuets would give to the rest of the party, which more than accounts for their casting time. Also, I didn't assume capped pDIF, I assumed Bard had superior pDIF which is entirely in line with the extra 50 attack their minuets would give them over an axe-wielding Dark Knight. Assuming Armadaberk, decked out, etc, whatever. Count the Atk compared to a BRD with a STR/Atk dagger and double minuets. You want to talk Acc cap? Acc Magian in the other hand, Bard subs Dancer and problem solved. May not be capped, but more than Dark Knight. Also, Bard Delay <180 with DW, Dark Knight Delay >180. BRD's TP gain is higher.


Bard Evisc: (DEX+69 pre-weapons, DEX+89 max with weapons and Osode instead)
Dagger/Dagger/Cornette +1
Hecatomb +1/Love/Jupiter's/Brutal
AF2+1/Hecatomb +1/Jupiter's/Rajas
Nifty/Cuchulain's/Byakko's/Lithe Boots

BRD TP:
Dagger/Dagger/Cornette +1
Turban/Love/Suppa/Brutal
Goliard/Dusk+1/Toreador/Rajas
Forager's/Goading/Byakko's/Dusk+1

Bard could use Twashtar if they happened to have it (though they'd still want to use Evisc). Acc dagger gives 18 Acc at the moment. STR dagger gives 22 Atk. STP dagger gives 13 STP. There's a DA9% Parazonium +1. Pick whichever you like, figure out how fast they'll get TP, compare it to an Axe using DRK. Ezpz, brd wins. 30% higher DPS, weaker but more frequent weaponskills (well, weaker on non-piercing mobs). Compare it to an Axe/Ridill DRK. Eh, betting on the DRK unless the Bard is sporting Twash.

Point being, the fact that this is remotely competitive is a bad sign for DRK. They need a crit and/or AoE WS that doesn't suck.

[Myrrh_Quetz]

Saplings won't give ruby.

Saplings don't link. Not really the ideal Fell Cleave mob if you can't pull them easily.

[FailureMidgard]

You're ignoring the benefit double minuets would give to the rest of the party, which more than accounts for their casting time. Also, I didn't assume capped pDIF, I assumed Bard had superior pDIF which is entirely in line with the extra 50 attack their minuets would give them over an axe-wielding Dark Knight. Assuming Armadaberk, decked out, etc, whatever. Count the Atk compared to a BRD with a STR/Atk dagger and double minuets. You want to talk Acc cap? Acc Magian in the other hand, Bard subs Dancer and problem solved. May not be capped, but more than Dark Knight. Also, Bard Delay <180 with DW, Dark Knight Delay >180. BRD's TP gain is higher.

/dnc doesn't even give DW? I'm not going to go too deeply into attack, but are we talking TP-phase or WS-phase? Also, you're ignoring the bonus chaos roll gives along with the cast time (which while worth it is nearly +20 delay).

DEF:53 STR+12 Accuracy+15 Attack+15 vs DEX +15
DEF: 64 STR +15 Attack +30 vs DEF: 52 MP +30 STR +10 DEX +10
DEF:27 STR+9 vs DEF: 20 DEX +6
DEF: 35 STR +12 Attack +24 vs DEF: 34 HP +14 STR +12
DEF: 19 STR +13 vs DEF: 26 HP +10 STR +8
STR+6 Attack+3 vs DEX+6

That's already a 90 attack difference on WS gear, and there's more if I went through it all. You really want to talk about your +20ish attack on a dagger? The difference won't be quite as high on TP gear, but I guarantee you there are still differences.

[Kyte]

/dnc doesn't even give DW?

Wut?

[FailureMidgard]

Wut?

No idea why I thought that, guess it's just thf and blu that gets it natively and not via SJ. In any case, next update /dnc loses an extra rank of SW, but both jobs have the option, so it's not really worth mentioning I think.

[Scrooge]

Bard could use Twashtar if they happened to have it (though they'd still want to use Evisc)

Not that I care to get in the middle of a DDBrd vs DRK debate, but BRDs can technically use Mandau. If you're not using an empyrean WS, a relic's usually a better weapon than an empyrean. I can't conceivably believe 10 dex would beat 1 base dmg, 30 att, and triple dmg procs.

[gnat]

Any lowman strats for Khalkotaur in Abyssea - Vunk?

[Thorny]

Sure sounds like you're assuming 6+ people.. BRD does SV night/troub minuetx2(or march if only brd) and leaves it until next box. JA delay goes down while casting, you're essentially spending 13 seconds every 5:36 or 3.8% of your time. I'd say BRD still beats DRK.. when gf leveled her BRD she outparsed the best geared RNG I know by a fair margin without a second BRD in pt.

[Tricen]

I kind of want to start playing again since WoW has become quite boring. Is it worth it to start back up?

[Byrthnoth]

I already said that BRD would have lower WS damage than DRK. There are quite few things going against it there (worse WS gear is a big one). I just think the extra 30%+ DPS and higher WS frequency would more than account for it.

Also, good catch on Mandau. Not that I expect Bards to have either weapon, but yeah I forgot about it. Makes me wonder if Mandau/Twash would get you the DEX+10, or if they become totally statless like all the rest.

[seiji]

DD pld? they have crit WS, they have several multi hit weapons (A Kclub skill) acces to 25 haste (26 with body)
wont catch up mnk-war-nin but compared to others DD?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Every non-staff job can be a respectable DD right now

[solanis]

I kind of want to start playing again since WoW has become quite boring. Is it worth it to start back up?

honestly? no.

[Marcicus]

There should just be a hierarchy of DD thread stickied for all to see or something. <_>

[GeneJackit]

I need some help with COR...regearing, with my main focus on QD...can someone point out a good QD build? Maybe an optimal vs an easily obtainable one? Please HALP!