The Current Hierarchy of DDs

[Obsidian]

Equipment?

I can throw numbers into a spreadsheet too but I doubt anyone would take anything I say at face value without seeing the math behind it. I don't see why you're so afraid of showing everyone your calculations.

[Nightfyre]

I'm sure we're all interested in seeing how you arrived at your conclusions by now, just post it all already.

[Plow]

If you understand the game well enough for a few % difference in dd quality to matter, the answers to your questions are obvious. He's not "hiding it," he doesn't want to have to spell it out for people that don't understand the basics.

[isladar]

Good ol' Daley.

[rog]

If you understand the game well enough for a few % difference in dd quality to matter, the answers to your questions are obvious. He's not "hiding it," he doesn't want to have to spell it out for people that don't understand the basics.

Well of course we could all figure out what gear/buffs/etc he's using, however it's rather silly to make all of us do so, because he's too lazy to just post all of the gear/buffs/mob stats being used for the comparisons.

[Darkmagi]

Lost it at Daley lol.

[Plow]

Well of course we could all figure out what gear/buffs/etc he's using, however it's rather silly to make all of us do so, because he's too lazy to just post all of the gear/buffs/mob stats being used for the comparisons.

dot dot dot

he's using capped att and fstr + maximum attack speed and arbitrary ws numbers

[rog]

dot dot dot

he's using capped att and fstr + maximum attack speed and arbitrary ws numbers

60% haste is capped ?

Cool, so nin wins when you've got stalwarts, and/or various other atk+haste buffs that keep atk and haste capped. Now is regain factored in there? I don't see any mention of counters either. And of course utsu takes time to cast, which drags nin down even further. Even in such a perfect situation, mnk will win, no question.

Would love to see a realistic situation, where atk isn't capped, which it won't always be, unless you're doing exp, which no one cares about (and if you do, the only comparison that matters is blm vs war), and for duos, where haste isn't capped either. Also with all important factors considered (how the fuck can you leave out counters?).

[Andradi]

Does NIN actually need to cast utsu, though?

[rog]

Does NIN actually need to cast utsu, though?

Eh, i guess to be fair, probably not.

[Malacite]

Late to the party but... wtf @ the (initial) WHM math? Not only does PUP actually have more DPS (as another poster pointed out) but did he even take into account the automaton!?

Methinks not. Armor Piecer and 2k+ nukes say hi. Also LOL @ PUP using STR H2H over either MAB Cat Claws or +Ratk Claws... At least outside of Abyssea anyway. Come to think of it what PUP weapon is ideal for SP within Abyssea anyway?

[TheTaru]

His mistakes were already realized and commented on by other posters. Why do you just ejaculate every random, retarded thought that comes to your mind onto BG? Genuinely curious: do you have Asperger's?

[Malacite]

Oh shut up. My just wanders a little too much for my own good, that is to say I'll be discussing something with someone IRL and then veer off onto sometimes totally unrelated tangents lol. Makes staying on 1 train of thought very annoying some times. I just figured in this particular instance since we were talking about PUP as a DD, I didn't even really know what weapon to take specifically for maxing out SP (that isn't Empyrean or Mythic) and rather than put out some stupid suggestion, wait for someone who knows to speak up.

[Aerynlia]

Makes me very annoying all the times.

Yep

[Obsidian]

Pretty sure the maneuvers required to make the automaton place higher than skillchain damage are a detriment to PUP's overall DPS, which is why they were omitted. It's probably dead half the time anyway.

[FailureMidgard]

No idea if anyone gives a shit, but here's to pointing out Sam is still at the top of the game when RR is taken out of the picture!

Failure - Masamune Sam
Naratu - Verethragna Mnk
Laron - Spharai85 Mnk

Player               Total Dmg   Damage % 
Failure                 111522    24.23 % 
Laron                    87330    18.98 %   
Naratu                   96880    21.05 %   

Melee Damage
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%
Failure               42359   37.98 %      111/8   93.28 %   201/679   370.48      9   328/811  507.78    8.11 %
Laron                 58129   66.56 %      287/9   96.96 %    98/638   190.59     28   197/848  313.04    9.76 %
Naratu                61105   63.07 %     316/17   94.89 %    93/437   181.03     36   175/535  289.39   11.39 %

Weaponskill Damage
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg
Failure                     69163    62.02 %      29/1    96.67 %   1307/3707  2384.93
 - Tachi: Fudo              69163   100.00 %      29/1    96.67 %   1307/3707  2384.93
Laron                       27880    31.92 %      17/0   100.00 %   1048/1940  1640.00
 - Asuran Fists             27880   100.00 %      17/0   100.00 %   1048/1940  1640.00
Naratu                      33125    34.19 %      17/0   100.00 %     66/3579  1948.53
 - Chi Blast                   66     0.20 %       1/0   100.00 %       66/66    66.00
 - Victory Smite            33059    99.80 %      16/0   100.00 %    967/3579  2066.19

Naratu had 1 more Victory Smite that the stupid parser counted as a counter, but it would just lower 
his average slightly, so not going to bother to correct the display results - it did still get all the damage though.  
Would also increase his WS split slightly, fwiw.  Also, counter damage is included in the totals above.

Waves were Bombs+Poroggo, Imps, Taurus. Naratu I each got charmed once, him for ~3 seconds as it died, me for ~23 seconds. Nobody died, we all had the same party (Marchx2, Haste, Chaos, Fighters). Boss was Hydra, I got paralyzed by a breath and lost meditate +7 swings, Naratu never got paralyzed, unsure on Laron. Only 1 imp got off an amnesia. Overall, random circumstances did not favor me, though Naratu did start with 0 TP, Laron started with enough for 1 Asuran, I started with enough for 2 WSes of course (what Sam wouldn't?!). No assist was used, we just went FFA, so any delay in targeting was player error and there was no favoritism on the parse ensuring 1 person would engage faster. We were all /war. 1 sleepga got off, neither of us is sure exactly how long we were slept for.

I understand a parse is not the end-all be-all, but analyzing this parse, a few things come out:
1. Fudo does in fact average higher than Victory Smite when RR is removed from the equation (and is performed nearly 2x as often).
2. When analyzing the swings/delay, it appears that I was actually slower than Naratu to engage, which is of course my fault, but I point this out because I still beat him while being slower to engage. Math spoilered for any who care/don't want to take my word for this.

Spoiler: show

Base Stats:
Delay : Vereth(331) Masa(437)
Haste : Vereth(62) Masa(72.5)
Attk/Round : Vereth(2.52) Masa(1.15)
2.52 is 2 15% chances to DA and a 22% chance to kick. Ignored T3 set bonus because chances are it didn't even proc. .15+.15+.22=.52, 2 swings base. Masamune was 5hit using Rose, so Brutal was only additional DA.
Attacks Performed: Vereth(333) Masa(127).
Added in the 7 paralyzed attacks for Masamune+1 DA over 7 rounds (which is almost exactly "average") to add delay time to Masamune (aka, this is favoring Vereth, since there's obviously 0 damage added).

Adjusted Stats:
Delay : Vereth(125.8 ) Masa(120.2)
This is a simple Delay/(1-Haste)
Rounds : Vereth(131.3) Masa(110.4)
This is a simple Attacks/(Attacks per Round)

Total Delaytime Spent Engaged:
Vereth: 125.8*131.3=16517.5
Masamune: 120.2*110.4=13270.1

Admittedly, this already takes into account the extra time I spent charmed, but it's pretty solid proof that he was engaged more than me, and still did less damage (which is not me trying to brag, I actually knew during the fights I was doing a shit job with targeting quickly/properly [close ones], but rather speaks to Masamune Sam vs Verethragna Mnk outside of Abyssea).

Anyway, it's by no means final proof, but the fact that Masamune did more damage with worse circumstances from "randomness" and slower engage time, to me, makes it seem like a Masamune Sam is in fact higher on the list of pure DD than a Verethragna Mnk when RR is removed.

Again, very sorry to all the people who don't care, I've been personally wondering how something like this would look outside Abyssea for a long time, and we just finished Verethragna last night, so this was my first chance to really see it~

[Villian]

So is it the time where other DDs than sam to shine? )

(around 25% serious)

[Tagus]

lol

you should ask laron to post that parse of when he beat a relic sam with his pup. Then we could take the conversation full circle.

[Plow]

60% haste is capped ?

Uh, 25% gear 15% haste 21%ish marches, so yeah it basically is, unless we're looking at 2hr situations. Pretty sure nins and mnks aren't popping hasso on us, and I don't think anyone's going to argue about mijin vs hundred fists.

Cool, so nin wins when you've got stalwarts, and/or various other atk+haste buffs that keep atk and haste capped. Now is regain factored in there? I don't see any mention of counters either. And of course utsu takes time to cast, which drags nin down even further. Even in such a perfect situation, mnk will win, no question.

Would love to see a realistic situation, where atk isn't capped, which it won't always be, unless you're doing exp, which no one cares about (and if you do, the only comparison that matters is blm vs war), and for duos, where haste isn't capped either. Also with all important factors considered (how the fuck can you leave out counters?).

As far as abyssea, why would you not have a 5 minute buff item that costs like 100 cruor for anything that matters, like... ever? If the nin is casting utsu, why isn't the mnk?

You have a valid argument with counters, not much with the rest, though. Also, if you have the 2 together and the mnk is countering, the nin is using innin, so, uh, yeah...

[Obsidian]

Does the 50 STR/regain on VV outweigh the crit hit rate boost from GH for MNK? Wondering why he gave MNK VV and NIN GH.