The Current Hierarchy of DDs

[seiji]

Does the 50 STR/regain on VV outweigh the crit hit rate boost from GH for MNK? Wondering why he gave MNK VV and NIN GH.

because he want nin>mnk

[Atoreis]

because he want nin>mnk

I gave mnk VV because Thorny from what I know use VV and I think he knows what he is doing.
I gave NIN Gh becaouse its obvious.

[Atoreis]

See this is why I didnt want to post it because ppl will start:
1. Asking is counter involved, like it would be possible to guesstimate something like that when you need to have hate or know how fast is monster you fighting or other impossible to check variables unique for the fight.
2. If you thing you can actually assume WS numbers by math instead of taking avg ppl post thats fine do it and I will put them in chart.
3. I already mentioned a lot mistakes/hard to guesstimate things in the chart but ppl will still ask. Factoring some things is hard because you might as well ask if I factored TP overflow (I think this is how crossing past 100TP is called) because it's gonna be more of it on MNK but yeah try to guess how much it would be and you are teh master. Try to guess how much TP you will get from being hit maybe too because if you have healer and wont cast utsu NIN will get good chunk of TP from getting hits while mnk will do dmg from counters. good luck on making universal math for something like that. You forgot to mention that mob can have some stun TP moves absorbed by shadow, and if there is more then 2 DD NIN could use Innin.
4. I assumed equip like this for mnk:
Veret, Ttathlum, Af3head, agasaya's, Tantra, Brutal, Usu body, Usu/melee hands, Rajs, Stringoi, Beleno's, Black, Af3 legs, af3 feet
Thats for Ws numbers: =(((R6*2*J6)*(H6*I6))+((R6*0,24)*(5+(331/2-180)*1,5/180))+2*Q6/180)/100
Thats for dmg per round: =(E6*2*J6*(1+K6)*L6*1,2*1,3)+(E6*2*J6*K6*(1-L6)*1,2)+(F6*0,24*(1+K6)*1,3*L6)+(F6*0,24*K6*(1-L6))
Thats for Rounds: =ROUNDDOWN((Q6-P6*120)/(G6*(1-M6));0)

NIN:
Kannagi, Kamome, Qirmitz, Af3 head, Iga, Brutal, Suppa, Af+1 body, dusk gloves, Rajas, Stringoi, Iga back, Goading(not I realised I forgot sTP from here), Af3, Af3

WS numbers: =(R8*2*(H8*I8)*J8)/100
DMG round: =(E8*K8*(1-L8)*1,2*J8)+(E8*(K8+1)*L8*1,2*1,47*J8) + (F8*K8*(1-L8)*J8)+(F8*(K8+1)*L8*1,47*J8)
Rounds: =ROUNDDOWN((Q8-P8*120)/(G8*(1-M8));0)

5. Maybe you are right you wont have pDIF 2 everytime and maybe mnk/war will have more att then nin/war but I dont think mnk/nin will. I dont think also that Vsmite avg should be that high. I would gladly got more info about Vsmite avg on random things.

Here is chart after more realistic number for Vsmite, more realistic pdif and sTP from goading and added TP from VV.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7680/math1.png

[Malacite]

Interesting parse, but why in the holy hell would you not use RR if you had Victory Smite?

In b4 +WS DMG Atma makes SAM king again and all the little n00bs flock back to it... orz


Also I would like to take the time to acknowledge whoever said 90% of players are trash was totally right... at least on Bismark anyway. Something like the last 5 (at least) or so Abyssea parties have just been unconscionably awful, I mean WTF. Take today for example, I was out farming bunnies for my GKT trial and dude asks me to EXP in Vunkerl, I said OK because I wanted to level my WAR which is 76 atm (SAM is 85). The dude gives me such a dirty look when I say I want to switch to WAR, because he thinks I'll be doing a lot less damage somehow (a couple of 1940 Raging Rushes shut him the fuck up though). About an hour into the group though we've had 5 or 6 deaths, a chain reset because of an ephemeral murex, and to top it off the leader didn't know he needed more than 5 min on the clock when leaving (he wanted to get stones to add time) and was blocked for an hour...

Sorry, out of place I know but just had to /vent there. On a semi-related note, what benefit will examining the hierarchy do for us anyway? I mean it's not like there is some massive performance gap that exists between the DD's (well, the top DD's anyway). Not saying that there isn't one, just that I don't think it would really be so huge as to suddenly null & void all other jobs and really just leads to massive e-peen fights. And I think we can agree there's more than enough drama on the internet already.

[seiji]

Interesting parse, but why in the holy hell would you not use RR if you had Victory Smite?

In b4 +WS DMG Atma makes SAM king again.

because some people still do non abyssea event (ein parse)

still waiting for AV/PW NM from WoG (and maybe more no aby content)

in b4 Would be king is +WS dmg but not worth using over RR for sam (?)

[rog]

Uh, 25% gear 15% haste 21%ish marches, so yeah it basically is, unless we're looking at 2hr situations. Pretty sure nins and mnks aren't popping hasso on us, and I don't think anyone's going to argue about mijin vs hundred fists.

Weird, i could swear there was another source of haste.

As far as abyssea, why would you not have a 5 minute buff item that costs like 100 cruor for anything that matters, like... ever? If the nin is casting utsu, why isn't the mnk?

I don't know, maybe you're fighting something that takes more than 5 minutes? Or maybe you don't have a chance to go back and buy one between fights? The mnk isn't casting utsu, because he's not subbing nin, silly. Between cast time, and losing counters, i can't even imagine why you'd use /nin, unless you don't have a whm. Oh, and mnk is 10x more durable without ustsu. That's a pretty important difference as well.


Also, since atk was assumed to be capped, why are either of them using /war?

[rog]

See this is why I didnt want to post it because ppl will start:
1. Asking is counter involved, like it would be possible to guesstimate something like that when you need to have hate or know how fast is monster you fighting or other impossible to check variables unique for the fight.

You could just make up a a few scenarios, and run the numbers. Do one assuming mnk is the only dd, and so has hate 100% of the time. Then do another assuming he has hate 50% of the time, and another at 25%. Seems simple enough to me, just divide time by mob's delay, then by counter rate, and by the % of time hate is held.

You can of course do the same thing for nin with innin.

Factoring some things is hard because you might as well ask if I factored TP overflow

You could change their xhit to an x+.5 hit to account for that. Maybe a little higher, since both attack multiple times per round, so you'll go over 100 regularly whether you ws slow, or not.


Just because you can't easily calculate a factor accurately, doesn't mean you can just ignore it entirely. If the best you can do is run the numbers for multiple scenarios, which you just pull out of your ass, then that's exactly what you do.

[Motenten]

Re: Atoreis's numbers:

Also need to define the target to allow for level correction. Though I suppose if you're assuming capped attack for both, that doesn't matter too much when comparing relative to each other. Still..

Question: You specify 'Tantra' as one of the earrings. There is no such earring. What is intended here?

Using a lvl 85 hume Mnk/Nin.

Assuming Stalwart's, it's effectively Berserk in a bottle (+25% attack), plus whatever the acc bonus is (I'll assume +30 for simplicity).

Assuming Red Curry Bun to put this at the high end of attack.

Mob target: level 92, vit 82, agi 80, def 400 (360 with dia II), evasion 400. These are somewhat arbitrary numbers.

Assuming RR+GH atma to start with, to simplify vs the regain issue. RR+GH tends to be nearly identical to RR+VV for strict simple offensive calculations in more moderate comparisons.

Assuming +30 cruor buffs (ie: no martello bonus, but all Furtherances).

Assuming 0.5 over-TP rounds.

Assuming 2x March (22%), Haste and Haste Samba for a total of +47% haste on top of gear.


I plugged in his gear into my spreadsheet.

TP gear:

What was given (changing Tantra Earring to Aesir):

Verethragna // Tantra
Tantra+2/Agasaya/Brutal/Aesir
Usu/Melee/Rajas/Strigoi
Belenos/Black/Tantra+2/Tantra+2

Unfortunately that's somewhat wasteful because of the specified initial conditions. So what needs to be changed?

Could take off every piece of gear aside from the weapon and still have capped fStr. Str in gear is only useful for bonus attack during TP phase.

Start with Tantra head/legs + black belt for capped haste, and Tantra feet for +kick damage.

With only that, accuracy is capped. Further accuracy is superfluous.

At this point, att is 653, where 720 is needed to cap. That's achievable with +45 additional att in gear.

Messing around, going with this to fill the attack needs: Agasaya, Bando, Aesir ear, Belenos (total: +45).

Now add in extra Store TP and crit damage since no other basic stats help at all: Rajas, Hoard, Juogi (note: NQ Juogi is better than Loki's for TP), White Tathlum.

So we end up with:

Verethragna // White
Tantra+2/Agasaya/Brutal/Aesir
Juogi/Bando/Rajas/Hoard
Belenos/Black/Tantra+2/Tantra+2


For weaponskills we're in mostly the same position. Fill in a bit of attack, but try to max out Str and crit damage.

Verethragna // Tantra
Tantra+2/Gorget/Brutal/Kemas
Loki's/Heafoc/Rajas/Strigoi
Forager/Black/Hachiryu/Tantra+2

For weaponskills, Loki's pulls slightly ahead of NQ Juogi.

Note that this is skating the edge of capped attack, as both TP and WS have 722 total att, where 720 is needed to cap.


Total DPS: 543.059
Total damage in 5 minutes (interval given in Atoreis's post): 162,918
Switching to /war (+10% DA, +10 att, ignoring Berserk): 586.942 DPS, 176,083 in 5 minutes.

Also of note, VV is a weak choice at this point, as you're past the cap on both str and att, leaving it only as a WSC mod and regain. Switching to RR+VV drops DPS from 543.059 to 525.767.



On the Counters side, based on Cream Soda's test data, and estimations of Perfect Counter, rate should be at least 75% (70% without PC, 75% with).

Aside: once you're capping att and going /war (which gives +10 att, to make up for the 8 att of Belenos), back piece should change to Ultion Mantle, which gives +10 base damage to counters. The -2 Store TP is inconsequential. Counters become a notable source of damage. In addition, Perfect Counters get an additional +20 to base damage from Tantra+2 head.

Mob should be slowed ~80% with Elegy + Slow (not assuming rdm Slow II any more than Dia III). With a typical 4 second delay, that becomes 7.2 seconds per round. Most mobs have a fairly high DA rate, so will plug an estimated 12.5 melee attacks per minute before accounting for spells or TP moves. Drop it 20% to 10 per minute, plus 1 evaded.

On average, two of those become Perfect Counter'd, and 70% of the remaining (so 4.9) are normally countered.

Avg normal counter: 299.702
Avg perfect counter: 368.615

Total damage per minute in counters: 2,205.770

Additional DPS: 36.763

Total /war DPS: 623.705 (187,112 dmg in 5 minutes)






Unfortunately these numbers aren't comparable with Atoreis's because he didn't give target data, and I don't have a spreadsheet set up for nin. If anyone else would like to do so given the above target data, feel free.

[Atoreis]

Earring is Kemas ofc sorry its just so similar in stats to Tantra tathlum that I sometimes call it tantra by mistake lol.

[Mercilessturtle]

Late to the party but... wtf @ the (initial) WHM math? Not only does PUP actually have more DPS (as another poster pointed out) but did he even take into account the automaton!?

Methinks not. Armor Piecer and 2k+ nukes say hi. Also LOL @ PUP using STR H2H over either MAB Cat Claws or +Ratk Claws... At least outside of Abyssea anyway. Come to think of it what PUP weapon is ideal for SP within Abyssea anyway?

Emp knuckles/KKK > WoE knuckles > str knuckles, in abyssea or out. And the comparison didn't include the str and attack, it would be exactly the same numbers using the much shittier options you listed. Armor piercer does terrible damage compared to actual DDs, the puppetmaster is easily doing ten times as much WS damage as the automaton is. And you need to waste even more time on maneuvers to get him to do that. Using pet ratk knuckles would be remarkably stupid. Even pet mab claws isn't a great option, he only nukes every 30 seconds, and you need to be spamming maneuvers constantly to get decent damage from them. Throwing away 1/5th of the puppetmaster's damage in JA delay isn't worth it if you have haste+marches. That's why you see pup's nuking in situations where they aren't meleeing anyways. Your best bet is probably valoredge and only giving him 1 wind and 1 thunder for the haste,double attack and crit rate, since that only costs you 4 seconds/minute. You don't optimize 10% of your damage at the expense of 90% of your damage.

[Thorny]

Are you seriously arguing for counter matching the 2 tp obtained from being hit? Seriously?

2% = .02 of a ws, using your hi example that's 60 damage with the additional loss of 2% of the 2s ws delay, or .04s. Counter is usually in the 200 range, more with perfect counter, and has no similar loss associated with it. Also, VV? VV is for proccing !!s on MNK, fSTR is capped anyway so you're comparing 10 DA and 2/tick regain to 20% critrate and ~7.5% counter.

[Motenten]

Very rough draft of a nin model, built based on my mnk spreadsheet. Don't have stats for Blade: Hi, so used Jin. Used the suggested gear set as a start (kept Kannagi + Kamome), then tweaked to optimize.

Currently assumes total haste+dual wield caps at 80% (not sure that this is valid).

I forgot to account for aftermath damage for the mnk, so leaving it out for the nin as well.

Using the same target, atma, cruor buffs, food and sub (/war) as the mnk build that got 586.942 DPS, the nin using Jin got 429.372 DPS. Since the model uses a non-empyrean weaponskill, you could expect the full version to be notably better. However since there's no handy data on the mods for Hi (and I don't feel like digging for them), we can instead look at the threshold marker.

The Jin version has an average weaponskill of 2,097. In order for simply switching to Hi to catch up to the mnk, Hi would have to average 4,297. I feel that that is unlikely.

The other possibility is to remove the delay cap restriction that I put in place. In that case the DPS increases to 546.118 using Jin. For Hi to match the mnk in total DPS would require Hi to average 2,499, which should be quite feasible with the given buffs, etc. Would need to average 2,894 Blade: Hi to reach the threshold set by mnk with counter damage.


Gear sets for reference:

TP:
Kannagi/Kamome//Qirmiz
Iga+2/Agasaya/Brutal/Suppa
AF (Juogi if delay capped)/Ocelot/Rajas/Strigoi
Cerb+1/Goading/Iga+2/Iga+2

WS:
Kannagi/Kamome//Qirmiz
Aias/Gorget/Brutal/Triumph
Usukane/Heafoc/Rajas/Strigoi
Cuch/Anguinus/Usukane/Iga+2


Overall evaluation: Pretty good chance for a top-end nin to match a top-end mnk.

[Kirschy]

Are you seriously arguing for counter matching the 2 tp obtained from being hit? Seriously?

2% = .02 of a ws, using your hi example that's 60 damage with the additional loss of 2% of the 2s ws delay, or .04s. Counter is usually in the 200 range, more with perfect counter, and has no similar loss associated with it. Also, VV? VV is for proccing !!s on MNK, fSTR is capped anyway so you're comparing 10 DA and 2/tick regain to 20% critrate and ~7.5% counter.

I'm probably dumb for adding fuel to a fire I don't enjoy watching, but I figured I'd add a thought here. While it depends on if you're using solo DD situation, MNK's total counter damage can add up to 10-15% extra damage based on my parses /w RR+GH. (ie; If I parsed a combined 500k damage between melee/ws damage, I'll also have done an extra 50-75k damage in counters making the total 550-575k total damage.)

[Atoreis]

Tbh on my mnk I'm always using GH but many MNKs was using VV so I just bandwagon this sorry.

I'm not compering counters to tp from being hit. Im simply saying that those factors are hard to math. What Motenten did is totally wrong because mob is not standing there and punching you but can use TP moves (a lot with so much haste and /war + counters) can cast spells sometimes for 10+ sec 2 times per minute or on the other hand it can be mob like Chloris who hundred fists a lot and dmg from counters can even match dmg from normal melee. Another factors are dispels absorbs and reset recasts on ja. Mobs cast Dispelga which can hit you counterstance just after you use it. Soulflayers/Pixies/Wyverns/Dragons/Hydra/Opo/Wyrms/gryphs/efts/turtles can dispel you buffs counterstance including. Div-o can absorb your counterstance with normal hits. Sandowrms can reset your timer. I'm sure there is a lot more factors that prevent from simply calc counter dmg like Motenten did. Same goes for Innin. Unless you have some WAR or SAM there starting the fight with Sekka ukko-> ukko or Fudo->fudo its very hard to not tanking. Tactical Parry is pretty lol but its still have some impact even if its 1% but its also hard to calculate. You guys trying to make it too easy when its not. Its very depending on what you fight and how you fight and in what party and even then its hard to math it. Thats why I have both NIN and MNK and equipping WAR and RDM because any of them can win in dmg on specific mob. My chart only showing that what can be easily calculated and nothing else. Its not judging which job is better it simply showing some base of job's potency. The reason I shown it is because I was tired of new bandwagon thats now DD are WAR,MNK > SAM > NIN,DNC,THF because its rather WAR,MNK,NIN> idk (I still think WAR is a little better for pure dmg then mnk or nin (empyreans))

[Delain]

I think it's more "they can afford to be worse because nobody cares". There's not that many pups, and a significant number of the ones there are insist on pretending the job is awesome so people who don't have it leveled might actually believe that. In general it would have to be made the best DD for most people to even acknowledge the job exists.

As for fixing pup as a DD, it isn't really an AI issue other than them tying WS preference to maneuvers. It is more just that pup has a B+ skill, no offensive JAs at all, low martial arts level, offensive gear selection on par with whm, and the automaton is just too wussy to make up the difference. And then you lose TPing time deploying and keep up maneuvers. Automatons need decent WS, better attachments, and to have the base effect (with no maneuvers up) for attachements be way higher. The melee frame literally has no WS to speak of, the rng frame can maybe squeak out 1500 with armor piercer, and not very often since they don't get haste/marches/samba.

I will admit to not having read through the entire thread following this but I had to comment. They have done so much to PUP over the last couple years that if a PUP who has put effort into the job and has an understanding of how to manipulate the AI, they should be near the top of the DD output parce. There is no question about it, especially inside Abyssea.

I will concede that a lot of PUPs have not put as much effort into gear acquisition as others, basing their gear selections on beefing up the puppet and hampering the master as pet gear is a bit easier to come by. While this is not "wrong" exactly, it is extremely situational. A decent PUP needs a pet build and a master build. The gear and even the abilities they have given us have opened a lot of doors for PUPs and the gap between a good PUP and a bad PUP is extreme now.

Inside Abyssea, I feel extremely weak if my Pummels do not break 2500, and my high end Pummels are easily 3500. These numbers are without BRDs or CORs, as most times my PUP is placed in the whatever party in an alliance as I am self sufficient. Adding COR or BRD buffs would push my numbers even higher.

As for the comment about not tying puppet WSs to certain maneuvers, this is not as big an issue as apparently it seems to some. Again, it being a non-issue assumes the PUP has an understanding of the AI, and actually paying attention to the freaking fight and not simply engaging the puppet and ignoring it. Yeah, some WSs you cant have maneuvers you would want up in order to ensure it is triggered (not being able to have fire up for Armor Piercer for example), but if that one maneuver boost lost is what would make or break you in a parce, you have bigger problems to worry about.

Boosting the base effect of each attachment would be very nice, I admit. But, in my mind, the result of this would be PUPs that use even less maneuvers than they do now. And while new attachments would be sweet, I do not see many options that they could give us that would be very ground breaking. Sure, we could end up with some fun new toy, but I already have a number of toys that I never use for PUP. Yeah, blaze spikes, enthunder, and others are cool, I dont use them as there are other pieces to equip that are actually needed.

A good, knowledgeable PUP is a solid, above average DD. They can easily top the DD list in many situations, and are very self sufficient. Most parties I end up soloing my own mobs out of boredom and am completely safe. It is much safer than many other DDs out there thanks to Ventriloquy, Flash, Role Reversal, and other such things. And saying there are no offensive JAs, I highly disagree with. Tactical Switch is an insanely powerful offensive JA. Popping out back to back 3k pummels is about as offensive as it gets.

It would be nice to see tweeks to the AI of the puppet regarding mage frames. However, there is rarely if ever that I am surprised or upset about a certain spell going off. A PUP worth a damn knows what the puppet is going to cast and when, like it or not. We have just come to work with it as is.

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Bahamut/Delain For the record.

[Mercilessturtle]

And this is exactly what I mean. You seem to have no grasp what a real DD is capable of (or insist on comparing with 0 haste buffs), and so you say pup is fine because stringing pummel is a good WS. And so people who haven't leveled pup and don't know much about the job end up believing this crap. Almost everyone else (just not drk) has a good WS too. And almost everyone else can do their WS a lot more often, and do more damage during the tp phase. The only way to top parses as a pup is to be in an alliance full of gimps and retards. You can top parses in abyssea xp alliances as a blm/sam DDing with a staff and never nuking, that isn't a measure of how good the job is. Trying to argue that pup can come anywhere close to touching war,mnk,nin,sam is absurd.

The point about tying maneuvers to WS is that you have to throw away even more of your damage putting up maneuvers just to get your automaton to do the right WS, which is still crappy damage compared to actual player WS. The automaton is well under 10% of your damage, you aren't just gaining free automaton damage by using maneuvers, you are losing your own damage too. It is just barely worth using maneuvers at all in the first place.

And then finally, you even try to give the tired old "you just have to learn the job" nonsense for whm frame? Come on, the problem is not that I don't know what it is going to cast, the problem is I do know what it is going to cast, which is usually the wrong spell. And that all spells are tied to a single casting delay. Casting a single cure *or* status removal spell every 30 seconds does not make a good healer.

[Malacite]

Emp knuckles/KKK > WoE knuckles > str knuckles, in abyssea or out. And the comparison didn't include the str and attack, it would be exactly the same numbers using the much shittier options you listed. Armor piercer does terrible damage compared to actual DDs, the puppetmaster is easily doing ten times as much WS damage as the automaton is. And you need to waste even more time on maneuvers to get him to do that. Using pet ratk knuckles would be remarkably stupid. Even pet mab claws isn't a great option, he only nukes every 30 seconds, and you need to be spamming maneuvers constantly to get decent damage from them. Throwing away 1/5th of the puppetmaster's damage in JA delay isn't worth it if you have haste+marches. That's why you see pup's nuking in situations where they aren't meleeing anyways. Your best bet is probably valoredge and only giving him 1 wind and 1 thunder for the haste,double attack and crit rate, since that only costs you 4 seconds/minute. You don't optimize 10% of your damage at the expense of 90% of your damage.

Even though Atma evidently extends to Pets the pet items still suck on PUP eh? Oh well.

@Rog: Okay, so if /WAR AND /NIN are both out, what the hell do you suggest for MNK sub? DNC? SAM? Sure as shit don't need /DRG unless you don't have a Blackbelt (which is sadly the case for me, never could get one and doubtful I ever will gdi)

[rog]

@Rog: Okay, so if /WAR AND /NIN are both out, what the hell do you suggest for MNK sub? DNC? SAM? Sure as shit don't need /DRG unless you don't have a Blackbelt (which is sadly the case for me, never could get one and doubtful I ever will gdi)

I would assume /sam.

[Delain]

And this is exactly what I mean. You seem to have no grasp what a real DD is capable of (or insist on comparing with 0 haste buffs), and so you say pup is fine because stringing pummel is a good WS. And so people who haven't leveled pup and don't know much about the job end up believing this crap. Almost everyone else (just not drk) has a good WS too. And almost everyone else can do their WS a lot more often, and do more damage during the tp phase. The only way to top parses as a pup is to be in an alliance full of gimps and retards. You can top parses in abyssea xp alliances as a blm/sam DDing with a staff and never nuking, that isn't a measure of how good the job is. Trying to argue that pup can come anywhere close to touching war,mnk,nin,sam is absurd.

The point about tying maneuvers to WS is that you have to throw away even more of your damage putting up maneuvers just to get your automaton to do the right WS, which is still crappy damage compared to actual player WS. The automaton is well under 10% of your damage, you aren't just gaining free automaton damage by using maneuvers, you are losing your own damage too. It is just barely worth using maneuvers at all in the first place.

And then finally, you even try to give the tired old "you just have to learn the job" nonsense for whm frame? Come on, the problem is not that I don't know what it is going to cast, the problem is I do know what it is going to cast, which is usually the wrong spell. And that all spells are tied to a single casting delay. Casting a single cure *or* status removal spell every 30 seconds does not make a good healer.

For some strange and out there reason, I do not feel that a BG party is full of retards and gimps in any way shape or form. And trying to claim that I have no concept of what a real DD is capable of is hilarious. I will not even waste my time defending myself regarding this topic. Bluntly, I know exactly what a real DD is capable of, and I meet that as PUP. No, I am not saying I am going to exceed a 2houring SAM or a Zerging DRK but you bet your ass I am going to keep up with them in a normal parce.

The absurdity of the argument is basing an opinion on PUP off of players that are sub-par when it comes to PUP. If you are going to base this hierarchy off of top notch players playing their jobs, blowing off PUP as a job based on non-top notch player experience defeats the whole point. And I do not expect people to take me at my word as I could be just making this crap up or making generalized comments about something I do not actually understand. It seems lots of people enjoy doing this, weird, eh?

Yes, the AI is annoying as hell for WHM frame, and I agree that it would be nice to see a separation or reduction in the timer for spells, but yes you do just end up having to deal with it and find a way to work with it.

[Not Kuno]

angry pup is angry