The Current Hierarchy of DDs

[catfat]

Pretty low, maybe even bottom 3. If it weren't for the fact that you need them for triggers they would be worthless in abyssea. Sch can outnuke them on single targets and other jobs could stun.

[Byrthnoth]

I think most of scholar's advantages have been demolished by Abyssea. MP efficiency means jack shit when you're getting 16MP/tick solo with Convert and frequent 250+ MP ethers (Refresh pin + Serpentes + Body + Minikin + Refresh). Scholar doesn't get -aga IIIs or AM for Grellow. Case Closed!

[catfat]

Exactly, now sch can fulltime ebullience. That's why I said if it weren't for the fact they are needed for yellow trigger they would be worthless

[rog]

How low is blm on the damage scale(barring aoe) now anyway? I just find it generally hilarious that a job that's designed to deal large amounts of damage(albeit magical instead of the physical) isnt even worth thinking about after 17 pages.

With 30% fc, freeze2 takes 7 secs to cast (+1 before you can cast again), and lets say does 4.5k damage. That's 562 damage/sec. A 3.5k bliz4 is 517 damage/sec. Aero5 is about the same as bliz4, and with a 7 sec cast time so 438 dmg/sec. Then maybe 3.8k for blizzaga3? That's 608 dmg/sec.

If you nuke freeze2, followed by 2x of the other 3, before another freeze2, that's (562+517*2+438*2+608*2)/7=527 damage/sec average.

Mostly just made numbers up though. Also getting hate is an issue for blm, since you can't nuke with hate unless the mob can be bound/slept/gravity, except with manawall. You might be able to spam nukes nonstop with the help of some meds, but not if you're draining mp from manawall. Still, should give a rough idea of where blm falls.

[Cymmina]

I think most of scholar's advantages have been demolished by Abyssea. MP efficiency means jack shit when you're getting 16MP/tick solo with Convert and frequent 250+ MP ethers (Refresh pin + Serpentes + Body + Minikin + Refresh). Scholar doesn't get -aga IIIs or AM for Grellow. Case Closed!

I agree with this. However, SCH has the advantage of faster casting spells, so for kited fights I do prefer it over BLM. SCH+BLM is still a powerful combination, but there's almost nothing left to manaburn anymore. Iron Giants, Orobons... not a whole lot else. I only end up with hate more than the other mages in my shell because I'm one of two people with magian staves completed. I don't waste my time soloing in Abyssea because a small group can do it more effectively, and I'm more likely to get drops if I'm taking people who can trigger the appropriate weakness.

I still love SCH, though.

[Tsuko_Asura]

RDM is the best magical DD, BLM is only for weakness. SCH was never good for anything.

[Cream Soda]

RDM is the best magical DD, BLM is only for weakness. SCH was never good for anything.

Hasteg...nvm

[Charismatic]

It was good for AV

Spoiler: show

before anyone got to put it to use

[Motenten]

Ok, as it was tentatively confirmed (by MercilessTurtle) that there is indeed a delay cap for both dual wield and haste together, there's some tweaks that need to be made to the conclusions.

Mnk/War w/Haste+2xMarch+Haste Samba = 586.942 DPS
Nin/War w/Haste+2xMarch+Haste Samba = 409.743 DPS (would have been 546.118 without the cap)

Haste Samba is what pushes things past the cap. Same stuff, but without that:
Mnk/War w/Haste+2xMarch = 450.970 DPS
Nin/War w/Haste+2xMarch = 409.743 DPS (same as above)

So without Haste Samba, Nin would need :Hi to average 2,651 to match Mnk (3,177 once counter damage is added in), certainly within the realm of possibility. With Haste Samba added, though, there's no way nin can catch up.

[Byrthnoth]

Wow, how hilariously cruel to give Dancer Haste Samba and DW 4.

If this is confirmed. It would mean that stacking Dual Wield only reduces your TP/hit after a certain point with buffs, correct? How would I go about testing this on Dancer?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Link to the testing of the cap?

[Motenten]

Random Question Thread: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/100...=1#post4254363

[FailureMidgard]

If this is correct, has anyone actually tested a monk at 50+% haste and made sure martial arts (30% reduction) doesn't apply towards this as well?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Am I reading that correctly? A NIN with their natural 35% DW and, for the sake of argument, 25% haste in equipment and dual marches would be completely capped in attack speed?

[Motenten]

Ok, 80% max delay reduction from all sources. Impacts:


10% DW (innate thf, blu)
Max usable haste: 78%

15% DW (any /nin)
Max usable haste: 76.5%

20% DW (/nin + suppa)
Max usable haste: 75%

30% DW (dnc)
Max usable haste: 71.5%

35% DW (nin, dnc+suppa)
Max usable haste: 69.5%

40% DW (nin+suppa, dnc+suppa+auric)
Max usable haste: 66.5%

45% DW (nin+suppa+AF body, dnc+suppa+auric+charis neck)
Max usable haste: 63.5%

50% DW (nin+suppa+AF body+Iga head)
Max usable haste: 60%

55% DW (nin+suppa+AF body+Iga head+Koga pants)
Max usable haste: 55.5%



Capped gear haste + Haste gives 40%. Double Marches pushes that to 62% (just past the cap for 50% DW nin).

Capped gear + Haste + Haste Samba gives 50%. Double Marches pushes that to 72% (capped for dnc with no DW gear).


Since external buffs can be considered static for a given setup, it's actually gear that needs to be adjusted to match that.

Given Haste + 2x March, you're generally good up to capped gear haste and 50% DW. So, no real limitations before you add in Haste Samba.

Given Haste + 2x March + Haste Samba, you can use 20% gear haste + 40% DW, 23% gear haste + 35% DW, or 25% gear haste + 30% DW.


For dnc, full Charis +2 gives 15% haste. Add Goading Belt to hit 20% and you can pick 2 out of 3 among: Suppa, Charis Necklace and Auric Dagger.

If using Swift + Rapp + Aurore hands to reach 25% haste then you don't want any additional DW gear.


For nin getting Haste Samba and the other buffs, they cap with 23% gear haste and no DW gear. Adding just Suppa means they cap at 20% gear haste (and they get 17% with the current Iga +2).


No idea on mnk. It would fall at the 71.5% max haste tier, above.

If using some +96 delay knuckles and this applied (and assuming it's relative to the base 400 delay of MA1, not the 480 delay of no MA), min delay would be 99.2 (~50 frames in FRAPS). If it does not apply, min delay would be 75.2 (~38 frames in FRAPS). If it's relative to the no-MA 480 delay, min delay would be 115.2 (~58 frames in FRAPS). Will have to see about getting some help to test it, if someone else doesn't do so first.

[rog]

Am I reading that correctly? A NIN with their natural 35% DW and, for the sake of argument, 25% haste in equipment and dual marches would be completely capped in attack speed?

No...

47% haste+35% dw is only 0.6555 delay reduction. Including haste that's 0.753 delay reduction, which still isn't capped. With 62% haste, you'd need 48% dw to cap.

[rog]

If this is correct, has anyone actually tested a monk at 50+% haste and made sure martial arts (30% reduction) doesn't apply towards this as well?

99% sure if it did, someone would have noticed by now.

Have to say i'm confused that people didn't already know dw was part of the delay reduction cap, both because i've gone over this before, and SE specifically said it was a delay reduction cap of 80%, not a haste cap.

[Motenten]

Got data on Blade: Hi, filled out the spreadsheet for that, and built a gearset for the weaponskill.

Same target as previous setups. WS Gear:

Kannagi/Kamome//Qirmiz
Maat/Hope/Altdorf/Wilhelm
Loki/Seiryu/Austere/Austere
Forager/Anguinus/Usukane/Hachiryu

Forager's/Anguinus/Usu legs were needed to actually reach the att cap. Total of 239 agi.

With that plus the usual atma/food/etc, though no Haste Samba, predicted weaponskill average is 3212, and DPS is 481.982.

Mnk's DPS without Haste Samba was 450.970 without counters, 487.733 with counters.

[Malacite]

But Dual Wield DOES factor into the attack speed cap? Hmm, well so much for haste being it's own separate modifier.

So then, realistically where do you strike a balance between DW & Haste then for NIN? Obviously you want the 50% spell timer, but then with 35% native DW you only need either 15 more Haste or DW if I'm understanding this all correctly? I dunno, seems like a bombshell has just been dropped in terms of gear selection now, given haste buffs in a PT setting. What slots could you change up now (in an ideal setting) to maximize attack speed while freeing up slots for other criteria?

Regardless this is a very interesting discovery.

[Motenten]

Haste Samba is the only thing that really impacts the balance, and it doesn't have any effect on recast timers (and you can gear swap for those anyway).

As mentioned above, if you're getting Haste/2x March/Haste Samba, if nin uses no DW gear at all, they cap out at 23% gear haste. Assuming they're going to use at least the Iga+2 head, they cap at 20% gear haste. If using Suppa + 3/3 Iga +2 (45% DW, 17% gear haste), they would be fully capped, and no additional haste *or* dual wield would be useful.

If not getting Haste Samba, should go back to aiming for 25% gear haste plus whatever gear DW.