The Current Hierarchy of DDs

[FailureMidgard]

I did not Told people to go on jobs we were already on because we were late, no bard ;s

Spaddle probably did if you still care(though ein without bard is pretty biased toward SAM), I can check with him.

I'm honestly more interested in WS averages, white hit averages, hit:WS ratio, crit rate than any rankings from said parse (would also prefer the file to sort by mob if there were anything that wasn't neutral in regards to +/-DT). Also, I don't think lack of marches is very biased towards anyone. Sure, it helps meditate, but that's about it, and that's pretty minor. Does Victory Smite even average >2k in Ein?

[Thorny]

I'll see if spaa has parse, but it's pretty close to 2k on /nin, definitely not noticably above from memory of old parses/eyeballing last night. Had demons/slimes/cerb so nothing biased vs slashing or blunt. I respect that you're not looking for ranking(I top all of them, but that could easily just be engage speed).. but also don't know which parser spaa has or if he parsed so i'll have to get back to you. If it's super important, send me a PM sometime saturday so I don't forget to run one myself >_<;;

[FailureMidgard]

I'll see if spaa has parse, but it's pretty close to 2k on /nin, definitely not noticably above from memory of old parses/eyeballing last night. Had demons/slimes/cerb so nothing biased vs slashing or blunt. I respect that you're not looking for ranking(I top all of them, but that could easily just be engage speed).. but also don't know which parser spaa has or if he parsed so i'll have to get back to you. If it's super important, send me a PM sometime saturday so I don't forget to run one myself >_<;;

Slimes are biased against blunt (-50 slashing, -75 blunt), and also just generally biased vs comparing WS averages. And ya, I easily top our Ein parses by some ridiculous margin (and we moved to FFA a while back, don't even use an assist anymore, so no bias there).


As a side note, I changed my mind on how to "fix things". Fuck new WSes, change Rana and Insurgency to be crit WSes and be done. They've changed WSes (penta at least?) in the past. I don't think it would overpower anything, and it'd actually be giving a larger boost to DRK than Sam (Insurgency is just all around better than Rana). As a side note, it'd give some incredibly minor additional boost to 2 of the Mythics, which doesn't sound like a bad idea in itself to me. Oh ya, and this really wouldn't help me much, as I still don't think it'd beat out Fudo.

[Yugl]

The only way SAM will beat WAR or MNK.

[Ashmada]

I don't think either of those are "just as crazy as RR"...they may compete with RR for a Sam not using a crit-hit WS, but they are both weak as fuck compared RR for a job using a crit WS. STR is a fairly weak stat to have on atma, suffering the reverse problem that Sams have with RR - it only affects WSes, and even then is WSC only. Honestly, if they wanted to try to fix things, they could also look into changing fSTR/weapon rank to make fSTR not cap until 250 STR or something instead of 150, at least STR atmas would actually benefit people (everyone) then, as opposed to the current where the 50STR on VV only matters on WS iff you have a STR modded WS

Like I said, those were just asspulled examples I cooked up in 5s, not great completely thought-out balance plans.
I was just outlining the options, whoever I quoted thought nerfing Razed Ruin was the only way, I merely outlined the 2 alternatives :

1. Giving every job good crit WSes (on realistic weapons). Boring, but efficient.

2. Making Atmas that wouldn't appeal to crit-WS users but would appeal to "single-hit, high WSC"-WS users.


As for them not being that geat :
Atma 2 : I had Gekko in mind when making them, mostly.
Sure, fSTR is trivial to cap on Gekko, but 200STR would still be 124 more BD on WS (assuming alpha is still .83), that's pretty damn good. No effect on DoT, true. 10% TA does, on the other hand, affect TP gain/DoT.

Atma 1 : Store TP+50 would once again be very impacting on a GK SAM.
The idea wasn't to have new universal Atmas but instead to provide ways for all DDs to achieve relatively similar results in different ways. I.e. where a MNK would take Razed Ruin, a GK SAM the STR+200 Atma.
There could be others for non-crit multihit WSes and so on.


All 3 methods work, but for variety's sake I like the "new Atma" option moreso than the others.


As for a true hierarchy of DDs, well, WAR and MNK are still at the top (they already were at 75, no change there), DRG's probably pretty close, there's a lot of arguing to be had about the middle part and DRK is all the way at the end, behind melee SCH and jobs that don't even exist yet.

Not much change since 75, except that jobs with more versatility (NIN, THF, BLU) now compete more closely with pure DDs.
I agree that there should be a price for versatility (I disagree that "DD that can Stun" is a very versatile job, though), but it seems SE does not.

[Draylo]

Honestly it does feel like what someone said earlier in thread. Like past FF's where you are getting to the end and you basically just destroy everything and the only challenge is a few dungeons or bosses.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Unless you're a BLU, in which case everything is still hard because the job sucks :c

[Scrooge]

just that there should be some balance, which RR is really fucking with.

Perhaps this is merely a case of "from where you stand", but imo, Razed Ruin did exactly that. When we're at the point that I don't mind a THF meleeing an NM, I think we're about as balanced in the DD phase as we can get.

There's always gonna be one or two jobs that stand out at the top, and jobs some people consider "trash", balance is when you've got more jobs than not that can be considered "relevant". Maybe it's just me, but pre-Abyssea, people seemed more close minded that only a few jobs were considered "serious DDs", whereas post-Abyssea (and more specifically post-RR) people consider a fair number more jobs to be "serious DDs" if not necessarily "Overpowered DDs".

For the record, I have over the years said I felt shit should be balanced, but it should be in an upwards boost on other jobs.

That's exactly what Razed Ruins is.

Something about Atma

Just stick a Hagun-level tp bonus on an otherwise decent Atma. Wouldn't do jack crap for WS that crit.

[Uubu]

The only way SAM will beat WAR or MNK.

I lol'd.. that or cosmic elucidation or whatever its called being sam specific

[TheDirtyHobo]

Just stick a Hagun-level tp bonus on an otherwise decent Atma. Wouldn't do jack crap for WS that crit.

What? An extra 100 tp bonus is about 20% extra crit rate, that would boost your average damage pretty significantly, just not your max damage.

[Scrooge]

What? An extra 100 tp bonus is about 20% extra crit rate, that would boost your average damage pretty significantly, just not your max damage.

I was replying to someone who was talking about hypothetical atmas they could add to not make SAM suck as much. Rather than add str and crap that wouldn't really help significantly, I was saying you could just make a non-shitty TP Bonus atma.

Yes, it could boost crit rate on ws which would increase your ws average (assuming there is no hard cap on crit rate, was that ever decided?), but honestly, you probably wouldn't equip that atma over a variety of others out there. So theoretically, it'd only apply (read: be useful compared to other available atma) to jobs that don't rely on crit ws.

[Eleven19]

So just out of curiosity, and I don't believe this would help SAM pull ahead for lack of berserk/DA/etc, but RR atma would affect SAM/THF ws's right? I wonder what the WS's would look like damage wise.

[FailureMidgard]

Perhaps this is merely a case of "from where you stand", but imo, Razed Ruin did exactly that. When we're at the point that I don't mind a THF meleeing an NM, I think we're about as balanced in the DD phase as we can get.

See, I don't get this...thief has always been a pretty solid DD, and could easily outparse "real DD jobs" vs piercing mobs, and still go neck and neck without piercing bonus. Honestly, if you think thf needed Abyssea to compete, you just played with a bunch of shitty thieves, and/or had/have no real concept of game mechanics.

There's always gonna be one or two jobs that stand out at the top, and jobs some people consider "trash", balance is when you've got more jobs than not that can be considered "relevant". Maybe it's just me, but pre-Abyssea, people seemed more close minded that only a few jobs were considered "serious DDs", whereas post-Abyssea (and more specifically post-RR) people consider a fair number more jobs to be "serious DDs" if not necessarily "Overpowered DDs".

This is a huge logical fallacy on people's parts though (in my opinion), and I'll do my best to explain why. Exact #s are made up, but the concept is 100% accurate (though perhaps the fallacy part is debatable) it is:

Pre-Abyssea -
Baseline Dmg output (acceptable value) was 100.
Top DD were doing 120.
Bottom DD were doing 80.
Top DD were doing 50% more damage than bottom DD.

With Abyssea -
Baseline Dmg output (acceptable value) is now 150.
Top DD are doing 275
Bottom DD are doing 150.
Top DD are doing 83% more damage than bottom DD.


The difference is, people have decided that the acceptable damage output is at the very bottom of the spectrum, instead of the middle. This is entirely arbitrary, and you can say so is the middle value - which it is, but I see no logical justification to suddenly change it, then claim the game is more balanced because it's been changed. I know Kirschy agrees with me that this phenomenon is occurring, yet she thinks it's ok that the acceptable/baseline value is lower, relatively, and has yet to give me a good reason as to why that's ok. If you can convince me of this, I'll agree with you, but as I see it, the game is less balance -because- the gap has widened (and really, there is no way you can even argue this point, the gap has widened).

[FailureMidgard]

So just out of curiosity, and I don't believe this would help SAM pull ahead for lack of berserk/DA/etc, but RR atma would affect SAM/THF ws's right? I wonder what the WS's would look like damage wise.

Yes, this is in fact what I did to hit my 40k Fudo I posted in the Fapworthy thread. Atmas were RR+SS and I was Sam/thf...'cause let's face it, no amount of STR will ever compare to 95% extra damage...ok, that's a lie, some 450ish STR will compare...

[Scrooge]

See, I don't get this...thief has always been a pretty solid DD, and could easily outparse "real DD jobs" vs piercing mobs, and still go neck and neck without piercing bonus. Honestly, if you think thf needed Abyssea to compete, you just played with a bunch of shitty thieves, and/or had/have no real concept of game mechanics.

How often does a THF outparse (or parse competitively with) the rest of your melee on any NM of value in a fair setting?

Pretty sure I specifically said NM in my previous post. How they do at colibris or any of that kind of crap wasn't my point.

[Khajit]

Main point was thf being allowed to melee a nm without most people getting bitchy about it or via wearing ridiculous amounts of subtle blow gear I'm thinking.
And as far as damage output on thf goes it's pretty easy to keep up(or win) when you actually get hasted and receive the same buffs the other DD are instead of being told to sit in the blm pt with no basic buffs like shell/haste let alone healing.

[Eleven19]

Yes, this is in fact what I did to hit my 40k Fudo I posted in the Fapworthy thread. Atmas were RR+SS and I was Sam/thf...'cause let's face it, no amount of STR will ever compare to 95% extra damage...ok, that's a lie, some 450ish STR will compare...

Oh? Interesting, I didn't see that I barely keep up with that thread, I'll have to take a look.

Wonder if I should look into trying to play sam/thf more often in abyssea when I'm not tanking. At the very least, might be fun?

[FailureMidgard]

How often does a THF outparse (or parse competitively with) the rest of your melee on any NM of value in a fair setting?

Pretty sure I specifically said NM in my previous post. How they do at colibris or any of that kind of crap wasn't my point.

Main point was thf being allowed to melee a nm without most people getting bitchy about it or via wearing ridiculous amounts of subtle blow gear I'm thinking.
And as far as damage output on thf goes it's pretty easy to keep up(or win) when you actually get hasted and receive the same buffs the other DD are instead of being told to sit in the blm pt with no basic buffs like shell/haste let alone healing.

This. It's not at all that thf couldn't keep up, it's that there was some huge stigma associated with it. Sure, I guess Abyssea has lifted that? But really, thf never had an issue with dealing dmg, even to an NM. FWIW, I've tanked Khim as cor/nin (full khim, not holding) for fun (at lv 80)...did pretty decent dmg overall too (still over double what my pld cotank did, but QQ atonement sucks on Khim etc).

To Scrooge - birds and NMs are not anywhere as different as people like to try to make them. The fact remains the same on both that haste is the most important stat, and the only thing that changes is that attack gets lower making crit or single hit pdif boost WSes slightly more valuable, but this can also be overcome with buffs. A thief could easily keep up with other DDs on virtually any NM you were fine meleeing. Now, a thief still can, though I'd add sans zerging since Sekkanoki on every 2h DD fucked thief over on zergs (unless thf/sam with 200 tp). In fact, last time we did Kirin, I was on THF and while I couldn't place top due to Sekkanoki (I went thf/war, prob a mistake, meh), I could still beat people here and there, and did respectable damage - without RR. If you dropped 1 WS off the 2hers parse, I was right in the mix, top3 even.

Oh? Interesting, I didn't see that I barely keep up with that thread, I'll have to take a look.

Wonder if I should look into trying to play sam/thf more often in abyssea when I'm not tanking. At the very least, might be fun?

It's fun I guess, it isn't good still though unless all you care about is a single high dmg WS.

[Scrooge]

But really, thf never had an issue with dealing dmg, even to an NM.

Neither does a whm/nin if you really wanna do it that way. Doesn't mean it's worthwhile to stick it on an NM when you could put a WAR or MNK on instead. The same applies to THF.

Post Abyssea, if I had nothing but three THFs available to go kill Sobek, would I? Yea.
Pre Abyssea, if I had nothing but three THFs available to kill an equivalent NM, could I? Yes. Would I? Hell no.

Razed Ruins didn't change a whole lot in relation to how much better, for example, a MNK is over a THF. It did change whether it's more acceptable to have a "not best melee in the game" hitting something.

[FailureMidgard]

Neither does a whm/nin if you really wanna do it that way. Doesn't mean it's worthwhile to stick it on an NM when you could put a WAR or MNK on instead. The same applies to THF.

and this is -exactly- how it is now. The "lower tier" DDs are just as worthwhile to stick on an NM now as they were before. They feed extra TP and do less damage than a higher dmg counter-part. Please tell me why in the world you'd stick a DRK on an NM now when you could put a WAR or MNK on instead. It's the -exact- same, and in fact the gap is bigger, aka you lose MORE than you did before.

Post Abyssea, if I had nothing but three THFs available to go kill Sobek, would I? Yea.
Pre Abyssea, if I had nothing but three THFs available to kill an equivalent NM, could I? Yes. Would I? Hell no.

Razed Ruins didn't change a whole lot in relation to how much better, for example, a MNK is over a THF. It did change whether it's more acceptable to have a "not best melee in the game" hitting something.

I'm sorry, but you're just completely wrong here, in every sense of the word. -YOU- wouldn't have done it, whereas a ton of other people were 100% fine with it, people did Nyzul with THF as the only DD, or Salvage, or fucking anything else that 1 DD was acceptable on. If anything at all has made Abyssea more friendly to "use whatever DD you want" it's the HP merit Abyssites and infinite MP, NOT Razed Ruins.