The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

[Yugl]

I won't argue for cure V or against in this post; the objective here to explain in what ways your argument is flawed.

I don't really understand this argument that RDM and SCH should have Cure5 because HP bars are getting higher thanks to Abyssea buffs. It seems to me that people don't necessarily want to be able to Cure better, they just want to be able to hit one macro to heal a melee completely to full, like what a well-geared WHM can do now. Attributing a "sadness factor" that a WAR can sub WHM and still get Cure4 to match the healing power of an RDM or SCH with refresh atmas (Here's a protip: Considering cure potency gear availability and Fast Cast effects, they can't) is much akin to complaining that anyone will be able to countertank with Counterstance and GH, i.e. it's a worthless argument.

So according to you, the amount cured is irrelevant in assessing how well one cures. Got it. Lets replace all cures with Regens then. Same MP cost and amount cured, but you get to wait 50s before it finishes curing. It's still the same though!

Strawman arguments (WAR/WHM) are what makes the argument worthless, not the point itself. BLM/RDM accesses all the Cure potency gear that RDM does and even more than SCH does. Their argument cannot be that other classes are superior to RDM and SCH for healing; however, it can be that they perform functions external to healing that diminishes the value of their healing and compromises their slot in the PT.

That being said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a SCH or RDM being limited to Cure4.

Hint: Moral language undermines your argument. The fact that Cure IV means I have to cure myself 4-5x on RDM after convert, an ability that people have come to accept as a technique that replenishes MP for the purpose of instantly returning to normal functions, can be construed as "wrong" since it undermines the design of my other abilities.

WHM is not necessarily a better AoE healer either thanks to the availability of Accession.

That assumes accession is always available, which it is not. You might counter that Agas also have recast and if stratagems are available, you may readily aga faster than the WHM. However, to then make this counterargument would be to be ignore the negative effect of utilizing accession (Double/Triple recast time).

If you're in a situation where you're main-healing on either of those jobs, perhaps you should rethink your priority system and actually go and acquire gear that enhances your Cure Potency, like Serpentes set, Augur's Gloves, Surya's Staff +1.

How does this demonstrate that RDM and SCH should not receive higher tier cures? What's interesting to note is that you've exhausted almost all the cure potency gear available (Minus Roundel + Even less significant pieces). Moreover, BLM and BRD have access to these pieces.

If you're too concerned about taking hate throwing out Accession Cure4s when fighting stuff, tell your melee to suck less and kill shit faster, or invest in enmity gear, or better yet... consider leveling WHM - it's not like its hard to do so now that its a decent mage job to have leveled and in groups.

This assumes several things. It assumes melees aren't already maximizing their kill speed. It assumes enmity gear will make a difference (The outcome might be the same with or without enmity-50). Level WHM cannot be countered because it's already an irrational statement. The premise you've given (It's not hard to do) is applicable to any class in Abyssea, so there is no logical "arrow" that points us to the conclusion that we must level WHM. Even if you revised this to say "Well, the premise is that you want to be an effective healer", it only points to leveling WHM if you close the possibility of class change (i.e. updates).

Or maybe you could just be more efficient on either of those jobs, and nuke mobs to shit with them. Thanks to the addition of Atma, it's not only worthwhile to do so, it makes things more efficient in general.

This statement does nothing to suggest that RDM or SCH should not get cure V, and in fact, lends support for the notion that they should if you believe that these classes should be just as or more efficient than their healing capacities.

[Isiolia]

Irrelevant, there is no time you should be without a sub. If you sub WHM, you have Curagas. If you sub BLM or NIN, you're probably not main healing. If you sub SCH, you have Accession.

You have up to...Curaga II. Ever. Which is subject to the same relative scaling down that Cure III and IV are.

I wholeheartedly agree, but if we're talking a bunch of people involved and getting hit by AoEs and such... well, why the hell didn't someone come on WHM?

You could have that with all of what, 5 people hit by an AoE to need to do that? Possibly fewer? Shit happens. Not talking about a single RDM working their way down an alliance list.

Speaking of Accession, what else are you going to do with it? Stoneskin? An RDM doesn't need any other stratagem besides Addendum: White (and I guess Manifestation in the case of a bunch of adds).

Enspells, Phalanx (as often cited for a reason for no Phalanx II) and so on. The larger point being that /SCH stratagem recharge is 2 minutes. I know when I was main healing often on RDM in Salvage, certain mob types (gears for example) certainly made me wish for AoE heals that were available more often that that.

I don't get what you're trying to say here.

A bigger gas tank doesn't make a car more fuel efficient. RDM is not efficient, plain and simple. It just has more resources to burn.

Regardless, curing faster is curing better. If that weren't the case, we'd have no need for anything past Cure. Faster you get everyone back into safe HP levels, faster you can get back to other things like buffs/enfeebles/nuking/whatever...and the less likely a follow-up attack won't kill them to boot.

Other jobs that don't have access to this gear, but can sub WHM to Cure4, won't even come close to the amount of healing potency you can achieve.

It's still largely irrelevant. If someone puts in that effort, they'd have better results with Cure V too.

[Foldypaws]

So go WHM+MNK? I fail to see the issue here, unless leveling WHM in Abyssea is super duper hard for some reason. I took my RDM from 37-85 with full merits and capped skill (including Elemental which was like <100 before that) in like a week so I could solo some shit. It's really not that hard at all to add another job to any decent player's repertoire at this stage of the game, and basic AH gear is dirt cheap. If you're the sole healer for a Melee with 3-4k HP, you can go WHM and toss on capped dMND Tier 1 Enfeebles all the same. If you're in a group with a proper WHM, or Dnc, or whatever with real cures, RDM can do a lot more productive things with its time than Cure.

"level WHM if you want to cure" is just as lame as "level SAM if you want to DD" was.

[The Blackrose]

SCHs likewise can toss out AoE debuffs, T4 nukes for 3-4k/spell, Animus spells and now Regain. If a SCH is going to be expected to be the primary/only source of cures for anyone they are going to be on /WHM for Haste (I want to shoot every SCH that shows up /RDM when they know they're taking care of melees for whatever reason), so they will have access to Curaga 2 natively for when they need to AoE cure without losing Strategems.

This is something I feel the need to debunk.

1. AOE debuffs? Only Gravity, Bind, Sleep, Blind and Poison count due to Dark Arts/Manifestation, thus making it more for crowd control instead of actual debuffing. The major debuffs (Slow, Paralyze) are filed under Light Arts and thus unable to be AOE'd due to the rules of Accession (Enhancing/Healing only).

2. 3-4k per T4? What mobs have you been fighting? Which Atma? AF3 +2 Klimaform? Weather? Day? Curious, that's all.

3. Curaga 2 as a main source of AOE healing when we have DD's pushing 2k HP plus, even more depending on number of Merit abyssites? And with more in the pipe with Heroes around the corner? Unless you're pushing with Rapture, you must be kidding.

4. Animus spells? Really? You can't argue them as a plus or a minus.

Mind you, I'm not arguing for or against Cure 5, but some of your citations seem suspect.

[Byrthnoth]

"level WHM if you want to cure" is just as lame as "level SAM if you want to DD" was.

Not really. There's an HP cured/minute that's available to WHM and not RDM. At 75, you didn't change your strategy and or wipe if you had Monks or Warriors instead of SAMs. In Abyssea, there are times when you legitimately need Cure 5/6 or you're looking at a strategy change.

[Yugl]

Not really. There's an HP cured/minute that's available to WHM and not RDM. At 75, you didn't change your strategy and or wipe if you had Monks or Warriors instead of SAMs.

You would if all those MNK and WARs were THF and PUP.

[Byrthnoth]

You would if all those MNK and WARs were THF and PUP.

At 75, I'd also have changed my strategy if all my RDMs and WHMs were SMNs or any other second rate healer.

At 85, I'd change my strategy sometimes if I lost my White mage and it was replaced with anything other than another white mage.

[Yugl]

So if you were in a casual magian PT (Killing EPs for example) and you went from SAM + WHM to SAM + SMN, you would change your strategy?

[Byrthnoth]

So if you were in a casual magian PT (Killing EPs for example) and you went from SAM + WHM to SAM + SMN, you would change your strategy?

I'm not talking about slaughtering EP monsters, which is why I keep qualifying my WHM strategy shifts with things like "Sometimes". There are Notorious Monsters specifically in Abyssea that do damage fast enough that single healers with Cure 4 cannot keep up HP while removing Debuffs and putting up Buffs. Normal Monsters . . . my Dancer heals itself using only the occasional Lucid Potions solo on anything T or less.

[Greatguardian]

This is something I feel the need to debunk.

1. AOE debuffs? Only Gravity, Bind, Sleep, Blind and Poison count due to Dark Arts/Manifestation, thus making it more for crowd control instead of actual debuffing. The major debuffs (Slow, Paralyze) are filed under Light Arts and thus unable to be AOE'd due to the rules of Accession (Enhancing/Healing only).

2. 3-4k per T4? What mobs have you been fighting? Which Atma? AF3 +2 Klimaform? Weather? Day? Curious, that's all.

3. Curaga 2 as a main source of AOE healing when we have DD's pushing 2k HP plus, even more depending on number of Merit abyssites? And with more in the pipe with Heroes around the corner? Unless you're pushing with Rapture, you must be kidding.

4. Animus spells? Really? You can't argue them as a plus or a minus.

Mind you, I'm not arguing for or against Cure 5, but some of your citations seem suspect.

Eh I'll be honest, personally I don't have SCH or see much of any real use for them at all in what I do. I'm just going off what I'm lead to believe the job does. I'm sure it has its strong points somewhere, otherwise there's really nothing Cure V can do to save it either way. With MM/Beyond/Ascetic's I can push 1.8k+ Bliz 3's on RDM with pretty much shit-tier gear, so I guesstimated a bit on Sch's nuking capabilities with T4 spells, good gear, Ebullience, and so on.

Edit: That said, if whatever you're fighting involves AoE-heavy damaging effects to the point where Accession Cure IV (What else are you going to use strategems on while main healing anyways?) and Curaga 2s can't keep people alive, you really should just bring a WHM.

@Foldypaws: Comparing bringing two different DD jobs to bringing two different Mage jobs is completely asinine. If you need -ga/-ja spells, grellow, or whatever, you bring a BLM. If you need loads of curing to the point where your group's Delta HP is Negative when a RDM or SCH is spamming cures, you bring a WHM. If you don't need loads of curing but you need a mage who's able to sleep multiple monsters, contribute magic damage, or otherwise contribute the utility unique to Rdm or Sch, bring a Rdm or Sch. These jobs have functions that are unique to them. If you bring a job for which Healing is a non-proprietary aspect and expect them to keep up with a White mage, you're going to end up in a world of trouble. That doesn't mean healing is or should be impossible for a Rdm, or a Sch, or a Smn. They simply have their limits in their ability to restore mass quantities of HP in a given timeframe.

[Tagus]

SE posts update notes so BG argues about Cure IV for 5 pages

I love you guys<3

lol

ppl want that shit man, but not nearly bad enough to level whm

[Yugl]

I'm not talking about slaughtering EP monsters, which is why I keep qualifying my WHM strategy shifts with things like "Sometimes". There are Notorious Monsters specifically in Abyssea that do damage fast enough that single healers with Cure 4 cannot keep up HP while removing Debuffs and putting up Buffs. Normal Monsters . . . my Dancer heals itself using only the occasional Lucid Potions solo on anything T or less.

I understand that, but what I'm not getting is why what you have said makes his statement untrue. From what I gathered, your post explains that it is only the same if changing from SAM to another DD (@75) made you rethink your strategy because there are instances where not having a WHM will mean you loose if you employ the same strategy. I suggested that it was indeed the case if you changed SAM to THF in specific instances. You then made a response that honestly made no sense in the context of the discussion. I assumed you were trying to portray change from 75 to 85 (Hence, weakening the correlation of Healer>WHM v DD>SAM) by saying that you always had to change the strategy at 75 and only sometimes at 85. From there, it's confusing.

[Spira]

ask SE to give RDM and SCH Curasa

[orson]

ask SE to give RDM and SCH Curasa

If they're going to give us stuff out of other newer FFs start with gambits, lol.

[Yugl]

I still say they should make an awesome DRG move named after Yugl. Yuglkrieg! Haste+, DA/TA+, and sTP+ go!

[orson]

I still say they should make an awesome DRG move named after Yugl. Yuglkrieg! Haste+, DA/TA+, and sTP+ go!

Only if it's @ level 45 >.>

[Foldypaws]

@Foldypaws: Comparing bringing two different DD jobs to bringing two different Mage jobs is completely asinine. If you need -ga/-ja spells, grellow, or whatever, you bring a BLM. If you need loads of curing to the point where your group's Delta HP is Negative when a RDM or SCH is spamming cures, you bring a WHM. If you don't need loads of curing but you need a mage who's able to sleep multiple monsters, contribute magic damage, or otherwise contribute the utility unique to Rdm or Sch, bring a Rdm or Sch. These jobs have functions that are unique to them. If you bring a job for which Healing is a non-proprietary aspect and expect them to keep up with a White mage, you're going to end up in a world of trouble. That doesn't mean healing is or should be impossible for a Rdm, or a Sch, or a Smn. They simply have their limits in their ability to restore mass quantities of HP in a given timeframe.

There should not be a proprietary curing job. Much like doing damage should not be proprietary to a single DD, healing should not be proprietary to a single mage.

You can have a mage that's *better* at healing, and WHM is certainly going to be that even if SCH and RDM get cure V, given as they'll lack cureskin, have 15% less potency, not have the barspell enhancements, have weaker shell, etc, etc, but having a mandatory job is bad. And WHM is mandatory now.

[NynJa]

That's exactly why it's not happening, they seem to want to keep WHM as the primary curing job, the moment any other job gets Cure V people will keep up with this "RDM+whatever other jobs can keep up with healing" bascialy they are just flat out saying, if you want a healer, get a whm. in abyssea at least. because with more level increase and im sure more atmas/abyssites to increase buffs, most will always have well over 1500 HP and cure 4 is pretty much shit now..

Because colibri pt's REALLY needed a whm...
I know a lot of pt's where a whm was welcomed, just ToaU said "Colibri or bust", which never cared for whm's. All that mattered was convert merits and how much MP you can whore out.

[Greatguardian]

There should not be a proprietary curing job. Much like doing damage should not be proprietary to a single DD, healing should not be proprietary to a single mage.

You can have a mage that's *better* at healing, and WHM is certainly going to be that even if SCH and RDM get cure V, given as they'll lack cureskin, have 15% less potency, not have the barspell enhancements, have weaker shell, etc, etc, but having a mandatory job is bad. And WHM is mandatory now.

You're still making completely improper comparisons. I can have a melee job that's *Better* at making Skillchains, gaining TP quickly without engaging a monster, and has a high WS:TP split. Does that mean I need to alter my strategy if a melee of this sort is needed and I just have a THF? Yes. It does.

Any DD can deal damage, they simply deal damage at different rates and in different ways. Likewise, any Mage can cast spells, they simply cast different spells. If all you need a melee to do is arbitrarily deal damage, you're fine taking any DD in the game if the situation is casual enough to allow it. Likewise, if all you need is curing, you're fine taking any Mage in the game if the situation is casual enough to allow it.

If you need a DD to put out as much damage as possible in a small window (zergs, or whatever), you don't expect the PUP to do all that well. Likewise, if you need a Mage to pump out high-potency Cures, potentially in an AoE, you don't expect the RDM or SCH to keep up. DD jobs differ greatly in the amount of damage they do overall, the placement over time of their damage, their TP:WS splits, forms and potency of damage mitigation, and whatever unique abilities they bring to the table. Likewise, Mage jobs differ greatly in their utility. White mage is a niche job. It has a head over every other healer in the game *at healing*, at the cost of having little to no other utility at all. Red mage can do anything it wants, it doesn't need Cure V and it doesn't need to be anything more than what it is as far as healing roles are concerned: A competent healer in low-stress situations with great flexibility and utility that does not work well when extremely Cure-Demanding situations are placed upon it.

[Jeryhn]

tagus

This, exactly.

Stop being a bunch a douchebags and level WHM if you want Cure5.