Job Adjustments (12/03/2010)

[Tsuko_Asura]

Farming TE: Phalanx easily makes up for the MP gained by Aspirga(which also severely limits your target options), a third sleepga is virtually useless, and using any wind spells while -ga farming is beyond idiotic right now

Grellow: Casting 50% faster, or having six more triggers available- tough.

Stun: lol

Duoing NM: /RDM still shits all over /SCH

[Tsuko_Asura]

-I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no way you're even at half efficiency if you're -ga farming with /SCH. No way at all. Between random deaths and the insane amount of MP lost per pull(which is already problematic while solo), you cut your ability to pull in half or more.

-Why are you limiting the subjob of your partymates when you lose nothing of value by being /NIN?

-Why do you keep talking about duoing? Duoing anything outside of chests with any combination involving a BLM is stupid.(unless you're literally only there for grellow, in which case go change jobs and solo something)

Edit: and any duo that can avoid being hit entirely isn't duoing, its called pinning.

[Lyltia]

Farming TE: Phalanx easily makes up for the MP gained by Aspirga(which also severely limits your target options), a third sleepga is virtually useless, and using any wind spells while -ga farming is beyond idiotic right now

You're silly. Mana Wall > pull everything > Aspirga/meds/Manafont depending what is available> nukega > sleepga > repeat > pop Restore/Temp chests > repeat. A third Sleepga is not useless if you don't suck and are nuking as fast as you should be. We won't have access to Windstorm until post-update, when we'll have Aeroja, expected that to be obvious.

Grellow: Casting 50% faster, or having six more triggers available- tough.

Three more triggers at any given time, and there's no reason for your duo partner not to be /NIN.

Stun: lol

Just one more thing the main job offers that you won't have to make somebody else /subjob. lol on it's own, very nice as part of the package.

Duoing NM: /RDM still shits all over /SCH

/SCH offers Dark Arts, Alacrity, and Storms; substantial increases to Casting times, Recast times, MP costs, and damage. How does /RDM even come close?

Edit: and any duo that can avoid being hit entirely isn't duoing, its called pinning.

No.

[Tsuko_Asura]

A BLM in above average PDT(basic augments, no Defending Ring) will, without Phalanx, be hovering around ~100/hit. Assuming you're pulling ~15 mobs/pull(depends on camp, can likely go higher), that's 1500 damage(or 750 MP) for one attack around out of every mob, which doesn't include the inevitable few hits you're going to sustain on the actual pull, the likelihood of several things getting off more than one hit, the chance of double attacks, crits, or the occasional lag. Now consider the fact that you're not going to be casting sleep in PDT, and that estimate rises tremendously.

Bullshit. Anyone who's ever spent any amount of time -ga farming knows that you're talking out your ass, and/or have no idea what it means to farm efficiently using these means.

And I'm still waiting for a single example of a duo where having a BLM is anywhere near optimal.

[Lyltia]

A BLM in above average PDT(basic augments, no Defending Ring) will, without Phalanx, be hovering around ~100/hit. Assuming you're pulling ~15 mobs/pull(depends on camp, can likely go higher), that's 1500 damage(or 750 MP) for one attack around out of every mob, which doesn't include the inevitable few hits you're going to sustain on the actual pull, the likelihood of several things getting off more than one hit, the chance of double attacks, crits, or the occasional lag. Now consider the fact that you're not going to be casting sleep in PDT, and that estimate rises tremendously.

A smart BLM who pulls mobs that link, but do not aggro, will take very few hits while pulling. A smarter BLM will reduce their max HP to the minimum, take a few hits before using Mana Wall, then equip Terra's+Sorc Earring for PDT-50% with a Max HP set to force the earring to proc at relatively high HP (not very difficult in Abyssea), and cast Sleepga in that same gear (Not that anything should resist anyway, but Ascetics solves whatever accuracy troubles you may have).

Bullshit. Anyone who's ever spent any amount of time -ga farming knows that you're talking out your ass, and/or have no idea what it means to farm efficiently using these means.

Ok~

And I'm still waiting for a single example of a duo where having a BLM is anywhere near optimal.

Um, everything that takes damage from magic? I'm still waiting for a single example of why /RDM shits all over /SCH.

[Tsuko_Asura]

So now we're limiting what "smart BLMs pull" to things that link, don't aggro, and have MP?

And BLM doesn't deal damage(magical or otherwise) faster than anyone, endure damage better than anyone, or offer more utility than anyone, so you'll have to forgive me when I continue to inquire as to how BLM is anywhere near optimal in any manner of duo.

[Lyltia]

So now we're limiting what "smart BLMs pull" to things that link, don't aggro, and have MP?

Smart players in general know how to pull up wiki and scan a list of mobs to find their optimal target, yes.

so you'll have to forgive me when I continue to inquire as to how BLM is anywhere near optimal in any manner of duo.

BLM alone can spin time indefinitely and solo quite a few NMs; add a duo partner and you can kill most of the rest. How is this not optimal?

(BLM doesn't) endure damage better than anyone

Are you fucking serious?



.............still waiting on an example of how /RDM shits all over /SCH btw.

[Obsidian]

Um, everything that takes damage from magic? I'm still waiting for a single example of why /RDM shits all over /SCH.

Pretty sure if you're going to go the magic damage route a RDM is better than a BLM.

[Lyltia]

Pretty sure if you're going to go the magic damage route a RDM is better than a BLM.

Can RDM spin time indefinitely or proc grellow with AM/aga3? Go away.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Being a time-monkey is not duoing an NM, and Manawall is only useful for niche objectives(like farming time). It does nothing to increase your survivability in the long run, because its unavailable over 50% of the time.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Can RDM spin time indefinitely or proc grellow with AM/aga3? Go away.

Can BLM decide to go solo something else instead of wasting time with something they, statistically speaking, have a fairly low chance of helping with?

[Tsuko_Asura]

I knew I remembered your idiocy from somewhere.

I saw some hate on BLM a few pages back and just wanted to point out that none of these interchangeable melee jobs you guys are debating are capable of dealing 40,000+ damage a minute, without stopping to rest of course, so they all lose. Just sayin'

[Lyltia]

Being a time-monkey is not duoing an NM,

If you're smart about being a 'time-monkey', as you call it, an hour of farming TEs nets you upwards of 3 hours of time, which you can then spend killing NMs; don't you get it? This is my entire point: I don't bring BLM because it's 'the best' at any one thing, i bring BLM because it can easily farm time AND kill NMs in the same trip.

Manawall is only useful for niche objectives(like farming time). It does nothing to increase your survivability in the long run, because its unavailable over 50% of the time.

Fucking lol.

Can BLM decide to go solo something else instead of wasting time with something they, statistically speaking, have a fairly low chance of helping with?

I don't know how you roll, but I lowman everything; even if it takes us a little longer to kill each NM, we need vastly fewer drops from each until we move on to the next target... Not like it's hard to dbox a WAR or MNK for red/blue procs. If you're looking at my entire argument as something a Linkshell (these even exist anymore? Where? Why?) would do, then we're just talking past each other.

[Lyltia]

I knew I remembered your idiocy from somewhere.

Sure, I made a retarded post, it happens. WAR sure as fuck can't solo nearly as much as BLM can though so.........

Speaking of retarded, how does /RDM shit all over /SCH?

[Tsuko_Asura]

There's nothing wrong with having a BLM in the zone to farm time for you while you solo NM on another job. That's entirely different than duoing something, and precisely why I stated that BLM is a terrible choice for a duo partner.

I beg of you, name one mob that is better handled by a BLM and X due to BLM's damage output or Manawall's utility that can't be solo'd with relative ease.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Speaking of retarded, how does /RDM shit all over /SCH?

Phalanx, Convert(for its defensive capabilities), and the lack of limitations that the grimoire impose upon white mage.

[Lyltia]

There's nothing wrong with having a BLM in the zone to farm time for you while you solo NM on another job. That's entirely different than duoing something, and precisely why I stated that BLM is a terrible choice for a duo partner.

BLM/SCH + RDM/NIN

-BLM caps azure, RDM caps pearl
-BLM spends an hour farming TEs while RDM solos what they can
-BLM+RDM duo NMs for the remaining 2-3 hours
-Repeat or exit

I beg of you, name one mob that is better handled by a BLM and X due to BLM's damage output or Manawall's utility that can't be solo'd with relative ease.

Anything where DMG:TP, Stun, or Grellow is important, which is pretty broad category; if you're camping a timed spawn NM that links/adds are guaranteed or likely due to competition, Manawall beats the shit out of anything any other job has to offer for keeping the claim and getting the kill.

Phalanx, Convert(for its defensive capabilities), and the lack of limitations that the grimoire impose upon white mage.

-Phalanx is completely unnecessary for TE farming as I outlined quite clearly above, and completely useless for NMs.
-You shit all over Mana Wall but cite Convert's defensive capabilities as a reason to use /RDM? Just concede, please.. although I know that won't happen, we can dream.
-Are you fucking serious? If you can't counter my arguments just shut the fuck up, don't pull that shit and try to, y'know, save face...

[Tsuko_Asura]

How many times are you going to soar by the point of my initial statement? I've at no point stated that having a BLM somewhere else in the zone farming time is a terrible idea, I'm saying that for the purpose of duoing something, BLM is an awful choice for a partner. I don't care about being able to sustain Abyssea time. It has nothing to do with what I said.

Giving me a "broad category" isn't naming a mob.

-Saying Phalanx is useless for NMs is like saying casting Protect is stupid. Very few things make or break you on their own, but every little bit helps in the grand scheme.
-I said that Manawall doesn't constitute a sustainable brick wall in any situation where you're not getting a restore chest every few minutes, not that its shit. If Manawall is present(which it is, 50 or less% of the time), Convert is an extremely useful defensive ability.
-ITT: 1 minute timers on respective grimoire impose no limitations on Blink, Stoneskin, cures, regens, the only important enfeebling spells, or storms. lol.

[Lyltia]

I'm saying that for the purpose of duoing something, BLM is an awful choice for a partner.

BLM+RDM kiting shit around a rock bouncing hate with 3k+ nukes from the BLM and 1.5k-2k nukes from the RDM makes everything dead, fast. Our record on Ulhuadshi, while trying all available grellows from BLM+RDM+BLU dbox, is ~15min. I've watched alliances struggle with it for 30min+, after procs. How is this awful? Explain.

I don't care about being able to sustain Abyssea time. It has nothing to do with what I said.

Well, I do, and it's been my entire point all along. What's yours?

Giving me a "broad category" isn't naming a mob.

Indeed. You're such a fan of making broad, cryptic statements and expecting everyone to just know, I figured you would too!

Saying Phalanx is useless for NMs is like saying casting Protect is stupid. Very few things make or break you on their own, but every little bit helps in the grand scheme.

Again, two mages kiting something around a rock and timing their casts correctly results in never, ever getting hit, making Phalanx/Protect not worthless, but certainly not worth choosing a subjob around, considering there's a subjob available (/SCH) that will result in increased damage. Considering that you have such a problem with BLM's damage output, I am confused at your logic.

I said that Manawall doesn't constitute a sustainable brick wall in any situation where you're not getting a restore chest every few minutes, not that its shit. If Manawall is present(which it is, 50 or less% of the time), Convert is an extremely useful defensive ability.

Fair enough, and I won't deny that Convert is useful if you fuck up, but, y'know, don't fuck up.

ITT: 1 minute timers on respective grimoire impose no limitations on Blink, Stoneskin, cures, regens, or storms. lol.

It's been pretty basic (/)SCH 101 for years that switching Grimoires for buffs when nuking is retarded; doubly so in Abyssea, as the MP cost penalty is completely irrelevant. The only time it would be worth switching is if the casting time penalty would get you hit/killed, which only ever happens when you're solo. Even then, the only spells that would pose a problem would be SS/Blink, and unless you're casting them more than once a minute (also unlikely), there's no reason not to swap arts to get them up faster.

[Greatguardian]

The last 4-5 pages of this thread in a nutshell:

ITT: Players who only have or care about a single mage class want their chosen job to be as good as other specialized mages in their specified roles.

Rdms and Whms can't farm TEs/Feet/KIs/etc nearly as well as a -ga farming Blm

Whms and Blms can't solo NMs nearly as effectively as a Rdm.

Rdms and Blms can't cure nearly as much HP in a set timeframe as Whm.

SCH is shit.

What the hell is new about any of this?

Edit: For the record, 2 Rdms with beyond/MM spamming Bliz 3 are going to do a ton more damage over time than a Blm+Rdm duo, not even gonna get into Rdm having Bliz IV this update. Just saying. Having native access to Haste without having to bum it off your duo partner every 3 minutes helps too.