Tanaka Keynote at GDC China

[Hyan]

I cant really take you seriously on this subject anymore, but okay lol.

[Spira]

MMORPG economies are not much different from real-life ones, and will always gravitate towards capitalism because who else are you playing for other than yourself?

Saying its easy to be rich in any multiplayer game is an illusion because if its easy to be rich for one person, its easy for someone else to be richer. And if its easy in a free markets, thats when inflation occurs. If everything has base prices like what you'd suggest, then everyone would be able to afford it, and currency is effectively worthless because scarcity no longer exists.

Even in online games, people are naturally capitalist as long as there is reason to trade (and there usually is). Take Diablo 2 for an older example. On battlenet, gold is worthless, so people adopted their own currency in the form of gems and SoJs since that had some form of value and scarceness.

[Lucavi]

MMORPG economies are not much different from real-life ones, and will always gravitate towards capitalism because who else are you playing for other than yourself?

Friends? The "amazing community"? I hear these two thrown around a lot. And watch it, because playing for one's self often leads to cheating. Buying gil in XI because you don't care about the state of the economy so long as you get yours. Duping Soj's in D2 because you don't give a shit, so long as you get yours.

You can make a profit and still care about others. What's it matter if someone else is more rich if you get what you want anyway? I had plenty of money in XI, WoW, and have plenty of money in XIV. I never felt the need to cheat to do so. If you start talking about people only caring about themselves and only playing for themselves, you're wading into a nasty swamp.

[Spira]

All benevolent action is selfish at its root. If you'd like to see the betterment of friends or the economy, its simply because that happening brings some kind of satisfaction to yourself. Your profit is intangible, but thats a whole different discussion.

Capitalism doesn't cause bad ethics. It just happens to motivate people to do that more often. Nothing validates 'cheating'. I've seen cases of non-profit organizations that cheat for the greater good of their cause. And Robin Hoods should not be tolerated either.

Bad business ethics doesn't only exist in the free market. You can find it anywhere. It's just that it may be harder to identify in some places than others.

[Elrina]

Just to throw this in, I'd rather not have to rent chocobos again every time I want to use one. I don't really see why we shouldn't be able to buy them, and keep them, and use them whenever the hell we please. Could be a lot of potential money sinks involved in that too.

And no matter how you slice it the marketwards are awful, imo. Even with a good search function, it'll basically be similar to Aion's Broker, but slower and much less intuitive, for no real gain whatsoever. Turn that zone line into a place to enter player housing, and/or a single ward available for people to use a single retainer for a dedicated alternative to a Rolanberry mall. Then, if they don't want an AH with a price history, put in the equivalent to the Broker and it'll be a much more user friendly version of what this search function will supposedly do.

[Selamis]

Just to throw this in, I'd rather not have to rent chocobos again every time I want to use one. I don't really see why we shouldn't be able to buy them, and keep them, and use them whenever the hell we please. Could be a lot of potential money sinks involved in that too.

And no matter how you slice it the marketwards are awful, imo. Even with a good search function, it'll basically be similar to Aion's Broker, but slower and much less intuitive, for no real gain whatsoever. Turn that zone line into a place to enter player housing, and/or a single ward available for people to use a single retainer for a dedicated alternative to a Rolanberry mall. Then, if they don't want an AH with a price history, put in the equivalent to the Broker and it'll be a much more user friendly version of what this search function will supposedly do.

As much as it pains me to say this, but they could borrow from/copy WoW's AH system and use that, and giving us chocobos we buy would be similar to WoW's mounts (pay for it once and use it forever, paying more again to upgrade and get a faster one) which would be much more useful than renting one.

[Spider-Dan]

Why the f*ck are people using '05 FFXI as proof of any sort of economic theory?

Here's the elephant in the room you keep ignoring: when certain parties can create MOUNTAINS AND MOUNTAINS of currency, inflation happens! Shock and awe!

Without fishbotting/rusty caps/what have you, '05 wouldn't have happened. Furthermore, take your magically wise and insightful Aion or WoW economies and throw in dirt cheap, bottomless currency factories and see how well they hold up.

The most obvious flaw in your entire chain of logic is that for some unknown reason, as soon as the RMT problem in FFXI was addressed, suddenly the Inherently Broken AH System became reasonable and useful again! A coincidence, I assure you.

[miokomioko]

Regardless of all this bullshit, the XIV Market Wards will function just fine as a pseudo XI-AH with very minor inconveniences as soon as we can search cross-ward and teleport directly to the retainer holding the item. It won't be Amazon/Ebay, but it will be like Google Shopping.

Also, this is the point I was making about "gouging" (and yes, I used the term properly, jackass). The example situation is when a normally often-stocked item has a stable value of 10,000 gil. Then, the stock runs out for whatever reason (low supply) and when a seller goes to put one of this item up on the AH and sees there are none in stock... he thinks "Oh man, mine is going to be the only one up. I will double the price and if they are desperate enough, they will pay it! WEEEEE~" They put it up for 20,000 just because they think there will be demand enough for it to go that high. Someone comes along to buy one and, because the prices are withheld and they are supplied with a price history of repeating "10,000s," they waste their time guessing 8,000? 8,500? 9,000? 9,500? Fine, I'll stop being frugal and pay the 10,000... 10,500? 11,000? 12,000? What the fuck... FINE 15,000. God damn it! That is price gouging because the low supply "emergency" gives someone the opporunity to price something high in hopes that desperate buyers will eventually fork over the money. The XI-AH system works on individual, slow bids and that's what makes it fucking annoying... (not to mention it has nothing to do with "auction")

In XIV, the same thing can obviously happen. However, when the buyer searches for the item in question, they'll immediately see the item/price and go "wow they priced it way too high, fuck that moron" and move on to searching elsewhere or doing something else instead of sitting there fucking repeatedly guessing and getting more and more annoyed as you realize this seller is hoping for a wealthy, impatient idiot to walk by. So to whoever said it was a bigger hassle... that makes no sense to me. Buying and selling in this future Market Wards sounds like less of a hassle in finding bargains/deals in exchange for it being slower to navigate (where there were menus, there's a physical world/experience).

[Sign]

I hope you are right, I still think they are going to implement the search without a price listing, requiring us to still jump from retainer to retainer to check prices manually.

[miokomioko]

I want to say they mentioned something about the searching having prices... but I could be mixing that up with when they added the price next to the items inside bazaars.

It feels like it's success in the near future is hinging on search functioning across all wards and being accompanied by a price list.

[Spira]

Also, this is the point I was making about "gouging" (and yes, I used the term properly, jackass). The example situation is when a normally often-stocked item has a stable value of 10,000 gil. Then, the stock runs out for whatever reason (low supply) and when a seller goes to put one of this item up on the AH and sees there are none in stock... he thinks "Oh man, mine is going to be the only one up. I will double the price and if they are desperate enough, they will pay it! WEEEEE~" They put it up for 20,000 just because they think there will be demand enough for it to go that high. Someone comes along to buy one and, because the prices are withheld and they are supplied with a price history of repeating "10,000s," they waste their time guessing 8,000? 8,500? 9,000? 9,500? Fine, I'll stop being frugal and pay the 10,000... 10,500? 11,000? 12,000? What the fuck... FINE 15,000. God damn it! That is price gouging because the low supply "emergency" gives someone the opporunity to price something high in hopes that desperate buyers will eventually fork over the money. The XI-AH system works on individual, slow bids and that's what makes it fucking annoying... (not to mention it has nothing to do with "auction")

i saw this in the AH as less of a flaw as it was an advantage. The only reason why anyone would want to bid below price history would be if they don't trust it, or want to save money from bidding it. I assure you in most typical cases if you follow the price history with a reasonable deviation of like 1000 you're likely to get it. If someone is trying to jack the price up, you can always bid and try your luck but at some point you will know not to play into his game. Alternatively, wait for more sellers to appear - many people fall 'victim' to the AH system because they try to 'win' from it NOW. You can always try again another day.

Now, theres absolutely nothing wrong with gouging either, because anyone can do it, not everyone will succeed, and even if you fail, you get taxed for it - there is a built in penalty against this.

But you see, it is the behavior of trying to bid lower to get a saving that further encourages competitive pricing and 'undercutting', and vice versa. This is more so a behavior problem than one of the AH.

Similarly in FFXIV, if the ward search function works the way you suggest. One might go bargain hunting just to save that 1000 gil on something they know is typically priced at like say 25000. If pricing information is visible and known, it makes it all the more easier for sellers to decide to undercut others by setting lower prices. The problem rears its head either way.

Also, I still do think its a hassle.

FFXI as is:
AH:
Category > Subcategory > Listing > (Price History) > Bid

Market Ward (assuming they sort by general category instead of wards):
Category > Subcategory > Listing > Individual Price Listing > Zone > Tab to find retainer > Go thru Retainer's listing > Buy

Will still work out to be more steps. Only reason why bidding should take longer is if you stubbornly underbid and try at stupidly small intervals

[Cooleko]

Id rather have prices than bidding if the AH is implemented. No reason to not see what the person wants for the item. I would rather pay 15k for a 10k item than to try 10k 11k 12k 13k 14k and have to wait for that retardedly slow "you didnt buy the item" message which may be washed out by shouts before you see it.

[miokomioko]

Only reason why bidding should take longer is if you stubbornly underbid and try at stupidly small intervals

"stubbornly underbidding" and using "stupidly small intervals" as well as rummaging through every fucking bazaar Market Wards-style were the only way you could be semi-frugal in XI. Not being stupid with your money shouldn't be that time-consuming/tedious.

[Spider-Dan]

Also, this is the point I was making about "gouging" (and yes, I used the term properly, jackass). The example situation is when a normally often-stocked item has a stable value of 10,000 gil. Then, the stock runs out for whatever reason (low supply) and when a seller goes to put one of this item up on the AH and sees there are none in stock... he thinks "Oh man, mine is going to be the only one up. I will double the price and if they are desperate enough, they will pay it! WEEEEE~" They put it up for 20,000 just because they think there will be demand enough for it to go that high. Someone comes along to buy one and, because the prices are withheld and they are supplied with a price history of repeating "10,000s," they waste their time guessing 8,000? 8,500? 9,000? 9,500? Fine, I'll stop being frugal and pay the 10,000... 10,500? 11,000? 12,000? What the fuck... FINE 15,000. God damn it! That is price gouging because the low supply "emergency" gives someone the opporunity to price something high in hopes that desperate buyers will eventually fork over the money.

Thanks for reinforcing my belief that every single person, ever, who complains about "price-gouging" and "undercutting" has no f*cking clue how even BASIC economics work. Let's take your example:

First of all, while you casually acknowledge that supply has gone down ("low supply"), apparently, you still seem to believe that a) 10k is the market-appropriate price for this item and b) it should still stay at 10k when the AH is empty.

Second, after the idiot who walks up to the AH and sees 1 remaining of a frequently-traded item decides that the best use of his time is to come in LOWER than the prevailing fully-stocked price, and he predictably fails, one of two things happens:

a) he decides to increase his bid until he eventually gets the item for 20k (or 25k, or 30k, or 50k, etc.)
b) he decides to do without

Provided that he buys the item, the next seller will likely sell for at least 20k. And more and more people go through the same decision. But guess what? If people continue to pay 20k for this formerly-10k item, the item was UNDERPRICED at 10k!

Now, I know that it can be tough to grasp that items that YOU want to buy should, based on market demand, actually cost MORE than they currently do. But it's true. What's equally true is that items that YOU want to sell sometimes are not actually worth as much as people have been paying for them. This is the dreaded phenomenon known as "undercutting;" a complaint which is equally idiotic as the one you just finished making.

The best part is that you can always tell which side of the buyer/seller fence the complainer was on:

- if someone complains about "price-gouging," they were trying to buy
- if someone complains about "undercutting," they were trying to sell

In XIV, the same thing can obviously happen. However, when the buyer searches for the item in question, they'll immediately see the item/price and go "wow they priced it way too high, fuck that moron" and move on to searching elsewhere or doing something else instead of sitting there fucking repeatedly guessing and getting more and more annoyed as you realize this seller is hoping for a wealthy, impatient idiot to walk by.

There is no difference! Seriously, are you one of those people who only jumps on eBay auctions at the final minute and bids like a maniac?

At the end of the day, you either are willing to pay what the seller is asking, or you aren't. The only people who "suffer" under the FFXI system are people who are unable to accurately assess what they are actually willing to pay for an item without being expressly told how much to pay. And I daresay that that is the one defining feature of what auctions are about.

[kisada]

nailed it

[miokomioko]

You completely skipped over where I specified it was an item that was usually stocked and any lack of supply currently on the AH is often a fluke and doesn't accurately represent the supply/demand of the item because of limitations on sellers and item expiration. When you see one item left in stock, you don't know whether that was one just left over from the standard-priced stock when there was plenty of supply or whether someone put it up after it hit 0, assuming his was going to be the only one up there and priced it at a premium. Then, you base your argument on the item selling for 20k which I never said at all. You're making the assumption that it would sell when, in most cases, this usually stocked item would just pile back onto the AH when the usual seller logs back in or checks his sales because he can only sell 7 at a time. The 20,000 price would usually not sell and that would not be the new standard because that 20,000 price is entirely based on it being the very last one for sale. I'm specifically talking about the inconvenience that the gouging does to the average person who wants to buy something in XI because the fucking prices are hidden until you bid up to an equal or greater amount. It's fucking dumb and only benefits the seller.

Also: No, paying what the seller wants or values something at or going home empty handed is NOT what auctions are about. The idea of an auction is to have the buyers determine the value of something by active competition. They are about items being reserved for only the person who offers the most money for it within a given period of time. XI's "Auction House" was about a fucking guessing game of how much someone listen an item for and regardless of what they decided to offer, only the item listed the lowest would sell.

Stop being a cock and pretending like gouging doesn't directly create an inconvenience within XI's shitty price-history mystery-seller/value AH for the end users. Gouging is perfectly fine and natural if the prices were not hidden because it wouldn't waste anyone's time and that's my goddamn point.

[Cooleko]

At the end of the day, you either are willing to pay what the seller is asking, or you aren't. The only people who "suffer" under the FFXI system are people who are unable to accurately assess what they are actually willing to pay for an item without being expressly told how much to pay. And I daresay that that is the one defining feature of what auctions are about.

I would have to say that you are missing the point. If the item consistently sold at 10k and was all sold out. Sure economics agrees with you the supply is not meeting demand so the price will increase. However, it isn't an invisible increase. I willing to pay the increase but I am not willing to invest 5 minutes into figuring out what you set your increase at 100% 150% 200%. Just tell me already and let me buy.

The only problem with FFXI was trying to figure out what the seller wanted without guessing 20 times. It has nothing to do with what I think the value is because if i think it is at max 15k, and i guess 6 times 10,11,12,13,14,15 before giving up and deciding the seller is not worth the time. IF everyone agrees with me he loses his opportunity to sell and brings the item back at the price we think it is worth. You are only arguing that if i accept the 20k price that it is now the norm. If we don't accept the price it is not. (the other side of basic economics your missing while blowing air).

If the item sold for 10k it is not unreasonable to try to get it for 11, 12, 15, .... What is unreasonable is having to guess 10 times to arrive at what the seller thinks his product is worth (in your case 20k).
I am willing to pay 20k for the item and there is nothing wrong with my assessment as I will pay the price. But who will pay what they think the value is if market trends are lower? If market said the item is 10k I may be willing to pay 20k but I am not going to start there and economics doesn't agree that I should either. I dont see your econ teacher giving out free money because he would pay more. When gas is 3.00/gallon I dont give the store 4.00 I pay what they ask for regardless of what the max I would ever pay.

Auctions are not about blindly guessing. They are a competition between buyers to see who will pay the most for what they want and have solid values that increase as more people bid. Blindly guessing until you hit the lowest number a seller will take is not "the one defining feature of what auctions are about".

[Cooleko]

dang you mioko.... why do you have to beat me to my points...

[Spider-Dan]

You completely skipped over where I specified it was an item that was usually stocked and any lack of supply currently on the AH is often a fluke and doesn't accurately represent the supply/demand of the item because of limitations on sellers and item expiration.

A point that only would be true if there were an AH limit on the amount of a particular item that could be sold.

limited number of sellers = limited supply

When you see one item left in stock, you don't know whether that was one just left over from the standard-priced stock when there was plenty of supply or whether someone put it up after it hit 0, assuming his was going to be the only one up there and priced it at a premium.

You can find out pretty f*cking quickly though, can't you?

Then, you base your argument on the item selling for 20k which I never said at all. You're making the assumption that it would sell when, in most cases, this usually stocked item would just pile back onto the AH when the usual seller logs back in or checks his sales because he can only sell 7 at a time. The 20,000 price would usually not sell and that would not be the new standard because that 20,000 price is entirely based on it being the very last one for sale.

So then, either someone wants the item badly enough to buy it for 20k before the apparently-limited number of "usual sellers" jump back on, in which case the price goes UP, or no one is willing to buy it at that price and everyone waits until said sellers get back on (and, for mysterious unknown reasons, price the sold-out item at exactly the same price it was when it was in stock). In other words:

- impatient buyers drive the price up
or
- impatient sellers keep the price low (when they should drive it up, based on current stock)

Where's the problem, again?

I'm specifically talking about the inconvenience that the gouging does to the average person who wants to buy something in XI because the fucking prices are hidden until you bid up to an equal or greater amount. It's fucking dumb and only benefits the seller.

Of course your hypothetical situation where THERE IS ZERO OF THE ITEM IN STOCK benefits the seller! Who the hell do you expect it to benefit?

Now feel free to explain, in detail, the opposite scenario where an item that normally sells for 500k (2008 khroma ore, if you like) gets driven down because a bunch of people do ISNM30 on the same weekend and get lucky, and how completely bullsh*t it is that impatient sellers have to chase each other down with lower prices and It Only Benefits The Buyers.

Also: No, paying what the seller wants or values something at or going home empty handed is NOT what auctions are about.

ITT: Hey guys, what's this whole "reserve price" thing about?

[Spider-Dan]

Auctions are not about blindly guessing.

WTF is wrong with you people? Auctions are ENTIRELY ABOUT BLINDLY GUESSING!

Have none of you ever actually seen an auction? You do know that you have NO F*CKING IDEA who will bid against you or how high they will go, right?

FFXI's AH is f*cking care bear mode compared to a REAL auction. Based on the complaints you and yours are making, if you were forced to compete in an actual auction, your heads would explode.