Some TH Testing

[Jogikat]

This is my first advanced topic posting, so i'm feeling a nervous! Anyways, the genesis of this topic stems from an argument I was recently having with a LS mate. For some reason, he believed that SE changed the whole concept of TH in such a way that TH isn't actually on the mob, until you see the message.

Obviously i'm not going to get into the details of our back and forth (made for an interesting event). I thought I would go out there and test some of this, also, it gave me an opportunity to test some other stuff that I always wondered about. I don't have any SSs but what I'm saying isn't rocket science and can easily be tested yourself for confirmation.

Test 1 - is Treasure Hunter 3 @ level 90, +1 TH or +2

Don't even know why I tested this, but for completion sake, I took my level 86 thf mule, took off all gear and h2h'd mobs.

When I was getting the message, it was consistently saying:

Additional Effect : The "mob" TH effectiveness increases to 3.

I did the same for my level 90 main thf, made it naked and h2h stuff.

Additional Effect : The "mob" TH effectiveness increases to 4.

Conclussion: Treasure Hunter III is TH+1

Test 2 - What happens when my main tags a mob, and then my mule melees it

Again, both chars were naked, I used /steal on main, and then h2h on mule.

First proc that would come up on the mule would always be:

Additional Effect : The "mob" TH effectiveness increases to 4.

Conclusion : once tagged, it starts with the thf with the highest TH (in this case my main TH3 vs mule TH2), also means Thief's with lower TH are building on a higher baseline

Test 3 - My mule tags (/steal), and my main does an action on my mule (in this case i used collaborator)

Additional Effect : The "mob" TH effectiveness increases to 3!

I did this a few times just to make sure i wasn't noobing up. I tried it with collaborator, also curing waltz a few time, but I made sure I didn't engage the mob on my main. Even weapon drawn wouldn't change this.

Conclusion : Enmity alone isn't enough to supersede an engaging Thief's TH.

Test 4 - I Agro a mob /resting on my main, get hit, then engage on my mule

Additional Effect : The "mob" TH effectiveness increases to 3

Theory : Your thief needs to do some kind of 'action' on the mob for your TH to stick.

On this last point, I'll eventually get to trying out more different situations, but the emphasis for this post is on the next test.

So, as I mentioned earlier, my LS mate believed that TH isn't on till you actually get the message. The best way I thought about testing this was to engage a mob with my main wearing TK,AA,AF3+2, giving me TH6 as a baseline. I used /steal on a mob, and then took off that gear. I thought based on Test 2, I knew what was gonna happen. I was expecting to see TH7, but I wasn't seeing it. In fact, I wasn't seeing anything for a long time.

I started getting worried, was I wrong? do I NEED to see a message for TH to be on. Did certain mobs have TH caps?

I went back to some basics. I put on AA/AF3 for TH5 base and engaged some mobs.

Additional Effect : The "mob" TH effectiveness increases to 6

Ok good, there isn't a TH cap at least on the mobs I'm working on. Next, based on Test 2, I kept on THF5 on main, /stealed and engaged on mule (TH2).

I was back to nothing happening. In fact, nothing was working until a certain condition kept being met, my mule was only able to 'increase TH' when the difference between the two TH was 1. For example, only when my main was set to TH4 and my mule was set to TH3, it was then able to proc up to TH5. In a way this confirms that my main's initial action of /steal put on TH4 as a baseline for my mule to proc it up.

So in a way I can dispel my LS mates notion that TH isn't on until you see a message, it is on as soon as you tag it.

However, shit is kinda messed up. I kept trying to tag with TH6 and upgrade with naked TH3. It just wasn't working, its not leveling up unless I keep the gear on. So I tried one more test... I tagged with TH6, and then took just 1 piece of gear off.

Additional Effect : The "mob" TH effectiveness increases to 7! (and than 8 for good measure).

I'm gonna try more testing when i'm awake more, but I'm pretty sure you can't just take off all your TH gear (if your looking for upgrades). I'm 99.9% sure though, whatever TH you tag with, that is the starting number.

Hope its useful info.

[boo]

wow, great job.
thumbs up for you!

[FailureMidgard]

I disagree with you on 1 thing - there does seem to be a definite TH cap (exact pending on Atma of Dread testing). I had a proposal already, and your tests are more in line with my theory than proving there is no cap.

My theory is you start with THX. The cap that you can raise it to is currentTH+2 or 3 (if dread is +1, then +2 I think, though maybe +3).

So if you start with TH6, your cap is either8 or 9, we'll say 8 for now. If you take 1 piece off, you now have 5, and your cap is 7, you can still proc! If you take it all off, or use a lower TH mule, you cannot proc it at all.

I'm fairly certain there is a relative cap to your current equipped gear. -Everything- I've seen points concretely to this.

[Foldypaws]

I've definitely upgraded to 5 when only equiped with TH2, I *think* I've hit 6 as well, but I'd have to check that again.

[FailureMidgard]

I've definitely upgraded to 5 when only equiped with TH2, I *think* I've hit 6 as well, but I'd have to check that again.

It may be +3, as I said. I don't think you got +4, personally.
Also, you're using a <lvl 70 thf that is missing Dread?

[Anomander]

I stated this in another thread, but we tested Atma of the Dread and it definitely seems to stack. Our th4 thief (who wasn't 90 yet) took it and their first upgrade in any fight always put them at level 6, implying they were previously at 5 (and thus the atma stacked with their gear).

[Foldypaws]

It may be +3, as I said. I don't think you got +4, personally.
Also, you're using a <lvl 70 thf that is missing Dread?

I'm using a <90 THF outside of abyssea, yes (I engage with TH4, then take the knife/armlets off. Don't have +2 feet, my THF is about 4th in line of my jobs to get +2 Emp gear.)

[FailureMidgard]

I'm using a <90 THF outside of abyssea, yes

I said <70? Or you're TH tagging without a TH knife?

[Alistaire]

My theory is you start with THX. The cap that you can raise it to is currentTH+2 or 3 (if dread is +1, then +2 I think, though maybe +3).

Hope not; this would mean if you have anyone /thf for whatever reason they're going to need to not engage a mob before a thf does.

[Arkanos]

I've seen a level 9 proc using a Lv. 86 THF with Knife, AAs and Dread atma (TH5). Only once though, on a Carabosse, out of like 7 Briareus/Carbosse pops (rest were usually 7 or 8 )

[Alistaire]

I've seen a level 9 proc using a Lv. 86 THF with Knife, AAs and Dread atma (TH5). Only once though, on a Carabosse, out of like 7 Briareus/Carbosse pops (rest were usually 7 or 8 )

Maybe it's just the higher the # the harder it is to proc, reaching the point of being unpractical/impossible.

[Spekkio]

Maybe it's just the higher the # the harder it is to proc, reaching the point of being unpractical/impossible.

that would be my guess based on what i'm seeing above, with more +th gear causing the difficulty of triggering higher tiers of TH being easier, but this is TOTAL speculation until it's tested and i don't have the jobs to test it.

[Rhealana]

I hit 10 with Assassin's Armlets, Raider's Poulaines +2, Thief's Knife, and Dread Atma.

[Raen Ryong]

Haven't seen higher than 6 yet with TH4, no Atma. Nothing has lasted long enough <_< it seems very random though. NMs definitely take longer to build on... though I think it's not so much NM vs normal mob as it is level difference.

[Eole]

I only hit 8 tops yesterday with the same TH Build.
Did you have buffs like double march or things like this ?

[Raen Ryong]

Yeah, I did. SA and TAing on timer (5/5 TA merits) and my THF is geared/meritted/atma'd for DD so it's not a lightweight.

[Cream Soda]

th atma 4 u

[Rhealana]

Just hit an 11. Same setup.

[Xilk]

Anyone know what the numbers mean?
everyone is assuming diminishing returns of some kind, which is likely, but the diminishing returns are probably in the mechanics of th, not in how high the number can rise. It would be kinder of SE to put a cap on the number which would be easy to find.

for example: th11 could be an 11% increase in the normal drop rate

I know this isn't how th1 and th2 have worked in the past, but things have changed... not sure how.

[Sylvrdragon]

Perhaps it's just harder to proc the further you go beyond your tag TH.

As for the THF Mule being unable to level up the Main's TH, perhaps he had to catch up to the Main's TH level before a lvl up would show in the log? Maybe the mob didn't last long enough.